student canopy control

[chris_uk 0]

Hi
Just a quick question. What do you do (when a student) if the directions you get over the radio when piloting down are different to that agreed with the instructor before the jump?

This happened to me and I got really confused.... Ended up wieving everywhere trying to do both - in the end, I went with the pre-flight brief (because I had this clear in my head).

Just a question..!

Chris

[popsjumper 2]

Listen to the instructor on the radio. You don't know how conditions may have changed since the original conversation.

On the other hand, was there a second student in the air on the same frequency?
(Oh yes, it's happened before)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[chris_uk 0]

We were on the same frequency - but it was clear who the directions were ment for.

Ah well. I landed ok, but I think I annoyed the radio operator. I'll get hiim a beer some time. I wish he had said that the conditions had changed then I would have followed his directions - without confusion.

I had a great time all the same and the DZ staff were fantastic. I think my nick nane might now be "disobedient" lol.

Ho Hum

It's all learning I guess.

[yoink 321]

While all students are given a flight plan on the ground, the instructor can use the radio to make sure that you're not in conflict with the other students while you're in the air, or can alter your landing pattern if the conditions demand it.

Listen to the radio first and foremost, but after buying him a beer, ask your instructor why the actual flight differed from the plan. Start learning how to fly patterns now and why certain paths are flown and it'll make life easier in the long run.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Just a quick question. What do you do (when a student) if the directions you get over the radio when piloting down are different to that agreed with the instructor before the jump?

This happened to me and I got really confused.... Ended up wieving everywhere trying to do both - in the end, I went with the pre-flight brief (because I had this clear in my head).

It's your ass on the line - you're not a remote controlled toy. If you don't understand, can't hear, or are suprised by a new plan, sticking to the origonal plan makes sense.

I had problem with radio when there were two of us up there. My buddy was non responsive at times (many) and it wasn't clear who they were talking to, and in one occasion they focused on him and I needed to fly my own final pattern.

Moving forward, you want to debrief why the change was made and necessary, and not forseen.

Could be worse - my buddy thought he was told to cut away on the ground (wind was dragging him) and he promptly did. Talk about irritated radio men!

[jakee 1,254]

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Just a quick question. What do you do (when a student) if the directions you get over the radio when piloting down are different to that agreed with the instructor before the jump?

At the DZ I learnt at the Chief Instructor made it clear that the ultimate responsibility for where I went under canopy was mine. He told me if I thought the radio instructions were wrong, don't follow them. I've also been to other DZ's that say to their students 'we know better than you so always follow the instructions.'

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[dragon2 0]

A good reason why we never have students on radio You plan the flight and fly the plan.

OTOH, one of our first-jump AFF students asked for a bigger picture of the airport and surroundings than the photo on the DZ, why? So he could see where he landed out

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mangledspoon 0]

Hehe, just this past weekend there were two students in the air (me off target assistance, but still with student gear etc) and an AFF Lvl 4.
The TA on the ground thought I was the AFF Lvl 4, so he gave me instruction and forgot about the poor lvl 4 student! Ahh well. She landed safely - but far away! Luckily she realised he was pointing her in the wrong direction and was able to land into wind.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...
It's your ass on the line - you're not a remote controlled toy. If you don't understand, can't hear, or are suprised by a new plan, sticking to the origonal plan makes sense.

Please be careful with your youthful advice. Not understanding and/or not able to hear is one thing...ignoring a changed plan from the radio man is quite another.

Quote

I had problem with radio when there were two of us up there. My buddy was non responsive at times (many) and it wasn't clear who they were talking to, and in one occasion they focused on him and I needed to fly my own final pattern.

See? You gave yourself one reason why you should not ignore the radio man. Your buddy was unresponsive. It could very well be that he or someone else was very nearby and in your flight plan and endangering you and himself with a collision. There several other reasons for not ignoring your radio man (changing winds is one of them)...talk to your instructors for details.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[diablopilot 2]

The responsibility to land safely is yours, anything instructed over the radio or discussed before hand is advice intended to assist you in doing so, however if it is not helpful, ignore it. If you feel you can't land safely without the assistance of the radio (thay fail sometimes), don't jump.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DougH 270]

I finally decided I had enough of the radio, and now I can actually fly a pattern.

The moment I was off the radio I landed my own pattern 3 feet from the peas.

I just didn't find it to be helpful and it made the landing experince much more stressful on the first three jumps I did on radio, for myself, and the poor guy on the other end of the radio.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JoeG 0]

I remember when a buddy was doing his AFF 4 jump, the radio guy on the ground thought a different jumper was him and had him steering for a landing in the pond.

Remember I have very few jumps, but my advice would be to be heads up, on the lookout for other canopies at all times, and you are responsible for your own safety. Listen to the person on the radio, but if you see they are steering you into a bad spot, you have to make that call and save your ass.

_________________________________________
"Knowledge is Power!"

[popsjumper 2]

Good stuff about learning to fly a pattern and landing with accuracy!

However, please note that the goal of the radio is not to put you down in the peas (congrats on getting there on your own, btw), nor to take away your responsibility for your own canopy flight but mainly to:

- Get you a visual from the air of what flying a pattern means both from your own perspective and from others flying the pattern, too.
- Get you some experience in how your canopy reacts to flying in 3 different directions with respect to the wind line.
- Protect you from really hosing yourself up if you get confused about it all.
- And most importantly, to help you avoid potentially dangerous situations - canopy collisions comes first to mind followed by obstacle avoidance.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DougH 270]

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However, please note that the goal of the radio is not to put you down in the peas (congrats on getting there on your own, btw), nor to take away your responsibility for your own canopy flight but mainly to...

I don't disagree in the least bit, and of course "your mileage may vary", I just wanted to share how flying by the radio made me feel. Sorry if I sounded like I was totally against students on radio.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[yoink 321]

From the BPA Ops Manual:

4.5. AFF and RAPS Student Parachutists must be equipped with a radio receiver for at least the first three descents.

While you are given an explanation of canopy control and landing patterns in your FJC, there can be a number of students in the air at the same time. An instructor can space you out better than you're probably able to at your experience level and can take account of any variables that have changed while you've beein in the air...

However having said that, radios do fail, and the training you have recieved is enough for you to get down safely.

My advice - if you can hear your instructor, particularly at your experience level, follow his instructions. If your radio fails, follow your pre-planned flight plan.

[popsjumper 2]

No..my bad...I replied to you but got focused on providing info to the original poster after I started typing...I didn't pick up on anything like you were against radio assistance for new jumpers.

Again...sorry, man.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...My advice - if you can hear your instructor, particularly at your experience level, follow his instructions. If your radio fails, follow your pre-planned flight plan.

Bingo! That's it in a nutshell!
Ignoring radio commands just simply cannot be a good thing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

I will add this to my statement that you should always follow radio commands:

It would be acceptable to ignore radio commands IF you see a dangerous situation approaching and your radio commands are taking you into it.

For example, you see that you are going to hit an obstacle if you follow the radio command...you would be well advised to ignore the command and avoid the obstacle. After all, the radio man on the ground cannot see exaactly what YOU are seeing from the air. This eventuality should be covered in the ground prep with the instructor.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[NWFlyer 2]

Good reminder, Andy. When I was a student I opened into some nasty line twists and while I was kicking out of them, the radio guy was saying "try pumping your brakes." Later, he told me that from the ground, it looked like a lineover, but from my perspective right under the canopy, I knew it was line twists and that unstowing my brakes into that was exactly the wrong thing to do, as I'd been trained. I ignored his suggestion and was able to get out of them and land without incident.

Radio is a valuable tool, but all students should be adequately trained to make their own judgment calls and to be self-sufficient if necessary. I was always taught that the radio is a nice backup, but that I was still responsible for having a plan in case the radio failed for whatever reason.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Elisha 1]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

[FreeflyChile 0]

Amen. While listening to the radio of course is usually the right thing to do, it's good that the OP had a clear enough mind to think about what was going on instead of blindly relying on the radio.

on my 3rd static line jump, I got caught between radio guys and no one talked me down and was able to land fine....good to know that you remembered the talk on the ground.
on the other hand, there's always students that dont htink and when the radio fails just fly straight and land several miles away....

[stanlholmes 0]

Didn't I read an "incidents" thread where one jumper had a 2 out/biplane on the same load where a new AFF student was under canopy w/ a radio? The instructor on the ground was yelling "cutaway, cutaway" into the radio, talking about the biplane, but the AFF student cutaway a perfectly good canopy. Both ended up OK, but this could have been a disaster. Before anyone dimes out the AFF student, I teach Primary Flight Training and am positive that if I emphatically told my student to do something dumb/different/dangerous, I could get them to do it. They' really impressionable.

Stan

[labrys 0]

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Didn't I read an "incidents" thread where one jumper had a 2 out/biplane on the same load where a new AFF student was under canopy w/ a radio? The instructor on the ground was yelling "cutaway, cutaway" into the radio, talking about the biplane, but the AFF student cutaway a perfectly good canopy.

If that happened, I really hope it wasn't a biplane that the student was being told to cutaway.

Owned by Remi #?

[yoink 321]

One of the test questions on the BPA Radio Operators licence form is:

"What instruction should never be transmitted over radio?"

The answer of course is "Cutaway" for that exact reason.

[wmw999 2,116]

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"What instruction should never be transmitted over radio?"

The answer of course is "Cutaway" for that exact reason.

Seen that. Fortunately, the student with the radio was high enough when he finally followed the instruction after about the third time he heard it, and the more senior student with the downplaned 2-out and no radio was jumping a large main and a large reserve. Both were OK; one was very confused, but he was reassured by a lot of people that he did exactly the right thing in thinking about his situation, checking his altitude, and then doing what he was told. He said he finally figured that the guy on the ground could see something he couldn't.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)