1 1
peek

Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid

Recommended Posts

Quote

you stumble over "yeah, but's" pondering all the possibilities. if you agree that decisive action is required on one, then why no the other?



no stumbling at all - GPs scenario was fully laid out and the "yeah, but's" were discussed. In that specific case he made a reasonable choice.

By definition, your case is hypothetical and you don't give equivalent info to answer the "yeah, but's" that were so clear in GPs case. So of course, you get the "it depends" answer. If GP had gone to a person less friendly to skydivers, then I'd certainly have disagreed with his call. But he didn't now, did he?

My point is you take this type of stuff one case at a time and don't just generalize it as "it's all the same"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

maybe this valid question of limits is why GP started the other thread...



That is avoiding my question.... not answering it. Where do you draw the limits?



personally, I don't.

life is NOT full of absolutes. if absolutes ruled those professing "thou shall not kill" would refuse to enlist in the military. (just one example)

where do you draw the line?
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If GP had gone to a person less friendly to skydivers, then I'd certainly have disagreed with his call. But he didn't now, did he?



I do not know. you might be right. as I do not know either GP or Dixie, their history, etc., I can only speculate.

your argument is based on knowing them, respecting, and trusting them. mine is not. therefore, I believe I gave "equivalent info."

care to answer the question?
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

And for the second time in a week someone jumped BASE gear out of an aircraft on TV. Only this time it was a helicopter at the Grand Canyon.



I just saw that as well and was thinking about this thread. I'm more than sure that they had the proper permits and permission in place.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Heli & Balloon? They would help, a little. Any degree and attempt of cross skilling is better than nothing. BUT . .

Consider this scenario:

You are running down the streets of Pamplona with your mates chasing you, pretending to be bulls.

Then you turn up for the real running of the bulls. i.e. Real Bulls are chasing you, there are crowds around, all hoping to see both miraculous escapes and the occasional "capture". Do you think your performance will be the same????? If your answer is yes, you are either very experienced at the task already, you are not human, or you are kidding yourself.

Wingsuit out of chopper. There are downdrafts, the exit technique is different to a cliff, there is no vertical obstacle once you leave the chopper. A balloon is closer, but it is still different. Very good practice and better to do than not to do. But still different. People's psychology changes when the variables change.

i.e. SEX - your first experience you were nervous, your 500th you were less so (liar ;)). But what if you then decided to do something kinky and different, or if your pursuasion changed. Its still sex, but most people would perform very differently. What if you had an opportunity with the prom queen/king when all you used to get was the town bike???????????? You act/behave/perform differently (on average).

Skygods? There are two main types:

One is an actual who has runs on the board and is recognised by his/her peers.

The other is the self appointed Skygod. His/her attitude stinks and his/her mind is closed to possibilities. He/she is also at higher risk when attempting new techniques/skills.

These are merely definitions, nothing to do with the post you mention (I did not read it).
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
1 hour ago, nwt said:

I know this is old, but since it popped up, I'm pretty sure it's technically legal to jump a BASE rig from an aircraft, if you read the FARs closely.

Do BASE rigs have in date certificated canopies packed by an FAA rigger within the last 180 days? Yes, it is legal to jump whatever you want from an aircraft. Nothing wrong with you doing that at all. However, the pilot who flies you would be breaking the regs.

Edited by gowlerk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, nwt said:

I'm pretty sure it's technically legal to jump a BASE rig from an aircraft, if you read the FARs closely.

No it's not. Not technically or in any other manner. You are required to have a dual parachute system when jumping from an aircraft. The more formal wording is you must have 1 more parachute than you intend to use. So if you plan to do an intentional cutaway, you're legally required to have 3 parachutes. Pilots are allowed a single parachute system becasue they are not intending on making a jump. The airplane is their ride down.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Yes, it is legal to jump whatever you want from an aircraft. Nothing wrong with you doing that at all. However, the pilot who flies you would be breaking the regs.

Not in the USA, it's not. Pilots have lost their license from letting people jump BASE rigs out of aircraft. I know of a specific example of a jumper who died making a balloon jump while jumping a BASE rig. The FAA investigated the matter and it ended with the FAA revoking the license of the balloon pilot. That incident has been discussed in detail on this very forum.

Edited by Westerly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
5 hours ago, Westerly said:

Not in the USA, it's not. Pilots have lost their license from letting people jump BASE rigs out of aircraft. I know of a specific example of a jumper who died making a balloon jump while jumping a BASE rig. The FAA investigated the matter and it ended with the FAA revoking the license of the balloon pilot. That incident has been discussed in detail on this very forum.

according to 105.49 (a), if the dual parachute system is legal in another country and jumped by a resident of said country, it is legal here.  not sure if any dual chute base systems are legal anywhere, but if so, they can be used here legally.  also, 91.1 (a) says something about the rules not applying to moored balloons, but i am not sure if i am reading it correctly.  it looks as if it may be legal to use a moored balloon as a base jumping object.

Edited by sfzombie13
clarification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Westerly said:

Not in the USA, it's not. Pilots have lost their license from letting people jump BASE rigs out of aircraft. I know of a specific example of a jumper who died making a balloon jump while jumping a BASE rig. The FAA investigated the matter and it ended with the FAA revoking the license of the balloon pilot. That incident has been discussed in detail on this very forum.

That is pretty much what I said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

That is pretty much what I said.

Hi Ken,

As I have posted before; it is possible to make a legal, premeditated parachute jump from an airplane in the USA with only one parachute.  You must be doing it as part of the certification effort towards obtaining a TSO-authorization.*

From PIA TS135

4.3.11 LIVE TESTS:

 Per Table 3, there shall be a minimum of 4 live tests with an individual weighing not more than the maximum operating weight in each harness. Two drops shall include a freefall of not more than 3 seconds and 2 drops shall include a freefall of at least 20 seconds. These tests may be conducted in conjunction with functional and/or rate of descent tests when practical. The user(s) must suffer no significant discomfort from the opening shock and must be able to disengage himself (themselves) unaided from the harness after landing. For this test the standard harness may be altered to permit attachment of a certified reserve parachute assembly (less harness) provided that such alteration does not interfere with the normal operation of the parachute assembly being tested. Reserve parachute assemblies shall be tested with the main compartment(s) full and empty, with a minimum of two tests each.

The bolding is mine.

Jerry Baumchen

*  If it were me, I would not make this a habit; eventually the authorities will cost you a bunch of money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Do BASE rigs have in date certificated canopies packed by an FAA rigger within the last 180 days? Yes, it is legal to jump whatever you want from an aircraft. Nothing wrong with you doing that at all. However, the pilot who flies you would be breaking the regs.

Actually, the jumper would be violating the regs too.

While the 'typical' FAA enforcement involves suspending or revoking certificates, they can also issue fines.

"Lawnchair Larry" (the guy who flew a bunch of weather balloons attached to a lawn chair through LAX airspace) didn't have any certificates to revoke, but he got hit with a 5 figure fine.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Do BASE rigs have in date certificated canopies packed by an FAA rigger within the last 180 days? Yes, it is legal to jump whatever you want from an aircraft. Nothing wrong with you doing that at all. However, the pilot who flies you would be breaking the regs.

 

15 hours ago, Westerly said:

Not in the USA, it's not. Pilots have lost their license from letting people jump BASE rigs out of aircraft. I know of a specific example of a jumper who died making a balloon jump while jumping a BASE rig. The FAA investigated the matter and it ended with the FAA revoking the license of the balloon pilot. That incident has been discussed in detail on this very forum.

 

15 hours ago, Westerly said:

No it's not. Not technically or in any other manner. You are required to have a dual parachute system when jumping from an aircraft. The more formal wording is you must have 1 more parachute than you intend to use. So if you plan to do an intentional cutaway, you're legally required to have 3 parachutes. Pilots are allowed a single parachute system becasue they are not intending on making a jump. The airplane is their ride down.
 

Could one of you cite the reg in question?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, nwt said:

 

 

Could one of you cite the reg in question?

Interesting.

I know this had been gone over before, and more knowledgeable people than me were able to cite it, but I looked at FAR 105, and the only place that I can see that requires using a single harness, dual parachute system is 105.49 (a)(2) - Foreign parachutists. 

There is a fair amount about the requirements to jump with a single harness, dual parachute system in 105.43, but I don't see anything that states using one is a requirment.

In the definitions at the beginning, they define a 'parachutist' as someone who intends to jump from a plane with a single harness dual parachute system. 
That might be where the 'using one' is considered a requirement, but it doesn't specifically say so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

There is a fair amount about the requirements to jump with a single harness, dual parachute system in 105.43, but I don't see anything that states using one is a requirment.

That was my conclusion as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Westerly said:

No it's not. Not technically or in any other manner. You are required to have a dual parachute system when jumping from an aircraft. The more formal wording is you must have 1 more parachute than you intend to use.

So, then what about all the Wingsuit proximity jumps that start out of a helicopter above a mountain range? Are they all illegal? There are tons of promotional RedBull videos of them. I cannot imagine that a large international company would associate themselves with patently illegal stuff? 
I assume therefore, that all of them are from outside the USA? If so, why would it be illegal in the USA but perfectly legal in most European countries? 
Given that Americans are constantly screaming that their country is the only one where real freedom exists, and how deplorable the "European nanny state" is, how could this be?

Seriously though, does anyone know what went wrong historically or politically, that the US is so hostile to base jumping, while Europe is not? It seems to go against what the US claims to stand for. (Not that I want to jump out of an airplane with a BASE rig, but still)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
2 hours ago, mbohu said:

So, then what about all the Wingsuit proximity jumps that start out of a helicopter above a mountain range? Are they all illegal? There are tons of promotional RedBull videos of them. I cannot imagine that a large international company would associate themselves with patently illegal stuff? 
I assume therefore, that all of them are from outside the USA? If so, why would it be illegal in the USA but perfectly legal in most European countries? 
Given that Americans are constantly screaming that their country is the only one where real freedom exists, and how deplorable the "European nanny state" is, how could this be?

Seriously though, does anyone know what went wrong historically or politically, that the US is so hostile to base jumping, while Europe is not? It seems to go against what the US claims to stand for. (Not that I want to jump out of an airplane with a BASE rig, but still)

In general those types of jumps are done by freepacking a BASE canopy into a skydiving container, if they are done in the USA that is. It's actually not that uncommon of a technique as serious CReW guys do it all the time because they dont want a D bag hanging off their canopy. Also, I think many of those videos you're talking about are filmed in Europe and Asia where jumping out of aircraft with a BASE rig is legal.

Just becasue someone is proxy flying or pulling super low doesn't mean they automatically have a BASE container. Minimum deployment altitudes are a USPA BSR, not a FAA rule. As far as the FAA is concerned, you can pull at 500' on every jump, they don't care. 

I dont know about the whole single canopy vs dual canopy thing, but I do know any container that is jumped from an airplane must be TSOed and BASE containers do not have TSOed harnesses. So even if you had two parachutes, it would still be illegal because it's not a TSOed harness.  There is one exception. The BASER container is a BASE container with a TSOed harness and a front mounted reserve which is legal to jump out of an airplane.

Edited by 20kN

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

1 1