skinnyshrek 0 #1 August 7, 2006 Have any of you experienced this before? This past week-end we had 2 people come in to do a tandem. After scrutinizing the waiver they asked that if anything happens to them they can't sue. The answer they got was yes they could, but usually the waiver holds out. On that level they said they didn't want to jump if the couldn't sue. Its a first for me in 12 years of jumping. Has anyone else experienced this.http://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #2 August 7, 2006 I have never seen that one before. Be thankful they didn't jump. We don't need people like that around, even for a tandem. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 August 7, 2006 QuoteThe answer they got was yes they could, but usually the waiver holds out. On that level they said they didn't want to jump if the couldn't sue. I've seen that twice. Once was a lawyer. The other time it was a child of a lawyer. That's fine, then they don't have to skydive, they'll be hard pressed to find a DZ in this area that doesn't have a release of liability contract that is drastically different.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,049 #4 August 7, 2006 Have a good day. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyshrek 0 #5 August 7, 2006 QuoteHave a good day. That's exactly what Hans told them. I've seen people question the waiver and ask to be explained certain crap like why is this still an experiment!"tandem video needs updating" Maybe they were just sue happyhttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #6 August 7, 2006 Their loss (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyshrek 0 #7 August 7, 2006 QuoteTheir loss Exactly, it was to close to beer light anywayshttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,049 #8 August 7, 2006 QuoteI've seen people question the waiver and ask to be explained certain crap like why is this still an experiment! It's usually at that point in the video, that I hit the pause button and tell them that's no longer true and a little of the history of why it was in there. They seem to be OK with it after that.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #9 August 7, 2006 I've seen it happen a couple of times. The DZ staff explained why the waiver was necessary, the people understood but still didn't feel comfortable signing their rights away, so they didn't jump. No big deal. The waiver essentially says "I am going to intentionally put myself in dangerous situation and rely on some guy I've never met to get me out of it in one piece, and I promise not to do anything should I get hurt." It's not difficult to understand why some people would be hesistant to sign that. I'd rather have a student refuse to sign the waiver than have somebody sign with no intention of honoring their promises. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iowa 0 #10 August 7, 2006 You can buy the new version (RWS 7, I think) or you could edit that part out since it is no longer experimental. Keith ''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tink1717 2 #11 August 8, 2006 Actually, Maytown had exactly that on saturday. It was reported that the guy sat through the video and training but repeatedly asked if he could go without the waiver. When he was told that under no circumstances could he jump without a signed waiver, he left, forefiting his deposit. Wierd.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #12 August 8, 2006 They must have got a good look at you! I figured it would happen eventually. Fucking idiot. Those are the kind of people that wanna sue when theres a tornado or something. Were better off without them!Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #13 August 8, 2006 The waiver did it's job! And it shows why the waivers hold up in court - you don't need to skydive. Good on the staff for enforcing the rules. Good on the students for saying, "It ain't worth it." This makes me feel good. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #14 August 8, 2006 QuoteYou can buy the new version (RWS 7, I think) or you could edit that part out since it is no longer experimental. Does the new one have the Bush twins jumping instead of ole Ronnie Reagan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoobrothertom 5 #15 August 8, 2006 My joke with tandem students used to be, "The last page has a summary for you." It was a reprint of an orange warning label!____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomvailco 0 #16 August 8, 2006 Quote The waiver essentially says "I am going to intentionally put myself in dangerous situation and rely on some guy I've never met to get me out of it in one piece, and I promise not to do anything should I get hurt." I'm I crazy for liking the way that sounds?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #17 August 8, 2006 Quote idiot. Those are the kind of people that wanna sue when theres a tornado or something. Were better off without them! Why are you people trashing the customers? In the above post, if they want to sue, then they'd have jumped anyway. They left and caused zero trouble for the DZ this way. Anything BUT 'idiots'. They got the intent of the waiver clear and they made the decision at the right time. Smart customers. Too bad they missed out on a fun ride. Good on them for making the decision prior to the jump - if it's not worth it (to them), then better they leave in good faith and not drag the DZ through the muck afterwords. I think it's a great example of how the waiver 'should' work. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #18 August 8, 2006 I have seen a few students balk at signing a waiver.A few of them went home without jumping. One was a lawyer who wanted to cross out several paragraphs. We told him that he had to sign the waiver "as written" or take his business elsewhere. The old Skydive Adventures - at Hemet, California - used to offer students the option of retaining the right to sue, provided they paid an extra $500 per jump! Hee! Hee! As for the students who insist on retaining the right to sue ... we are better off without them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #19 August 8, 2006 QuoteThey left and caused zero trouble for the DZ this way. Anything BUT 'idiots'. They got the intent of the waiver clear and they made the decision at the right time. Smart customers. Don't you find them kinda stupid for wanting to go skydiving and thinking there would be no waiver or a waiver that would put all liability on the parties involved? I guess, even before I started skydiving, I assumed that there would be waivers for all high risk activities. I guess I am alone assuming this. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 August 8, 2006 Quote The old Skydive Adventures - at Hemet, California - used to offer students the option of retaining the right to sue, provided they paid an extra $500 per jump! that is still in play at some DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kryos 0 #21 August 8, 2006 QuoteHave any of you experienced this before? This past week-end we had 2 people come in to do a tandem. After scrutinizing the waiver they asked that if anything happens to them they can't sue. The answer they got was yes they could, but usually the waiver holds out. On that level they said they didn't want to jump if the couldn't sue. Its a first for me in 12 years of jumping. Has anyone else experienced this.There is an option on the waiver forms ... so that they will not be considered a "contract of adhesion" ... where you can voluntarily pay an extra $500 and then retain your right to sue in the event something goes wrong. Of course, most people just check "no" next to that little box. Who the hell is gonna pay close to $700 bucks just to make a tandem? But, the option is there if the right to sue was that important to these people. Of course, I can only wonder how the drop zone would respond if a potential tandem student did check the "yes" in that box and hand over the extra $500. Wonder if the drop zone would decline to accept their money in that situation and refuse to allow them to jump. That would be an interesting situation. Blue skies ... --rita Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kryos 0 #22 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuote The old Skydive Adventures - at Hemet, California - used to offer students the option of retaining the right to sue, provided they paid an extra $500 per jump! that is still in play at some DZs.If any dz wants their waiver to hold up in court, that offer had better be standard on all the waivers at any dz. Otherwise, the entire waiver would be thrown out of court as a "contract of adhesion" ... i.e., the person only waived his right to sue because he had to in order to be permitted to make the jump. By offering this "out" with the $500, the dz can show that the customer did have a choice, and merely opted to waive his right to sue. Of course, this strategy works very well. Few people are likely to demand to retain the right to sue and willingly pay $500 for the privilege of that retention. Of course, they check "no" next to that line on the waiver and thus "voluntarily" relinquish that right. Since they had a choice, the contract is not one of adhesion and the waiver holds up in court. Like I said in the other post, though ... wonder what would happen if someone opted to retain their right to sue by paying the extra $500? Wonder if the dz would take their money and allow them to make the jump? Any dzo's out there willing to comment? Blue skies ... --rita Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #23 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuote The old Skydive Adventures - at Hemet, California - used to offer students the option of retaining the right to sue, provided they paid an extra $500 per jump! that is still in play at some DZs. Yeah, and as I said in a similar thread a few months ago, that's nuts. A lousy 500 bucks does not even come CLOSE to the scores of thousands of uninsured dollars a DZ would have to spend to defend itself against a lawsuit by a tandem customer who they let jump without a waiver. 9 times out of 10, waivers do their job. I've represented a number of clients in the skydiving industry (mostly gear shops, riggers and jump plane owners), and have drafted plenty of contracts and waivers. In the US, it's absolute lunacy for any DZ to let anyone (much less a tandem student) jump without a waiver. No way is it worth it for $500. $25,000 maybe, but certainly not $500. And as others said, if a waiver helps weed out someone who's trouble waiting to happen, so much the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #24 August 8, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The old Skydive Adventures - at Hemet, California - used to offer students the option of retaining the right to sue, provided they paid an extra $500 per jump! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- that is still in play at some DZs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If any dz wants their waiver to hold up in court, that offer had better be standard on all the waivers at any dz. Otherwise, the entire waiver would be thrown out of court as a "contract of adhesion" ... i.e., the person only waived his right to sue because he had to in order to be permitted to make the jump. In many states, i.e., California, this is not the case. An adhesion contract is one for which there is no choice for an adherent to the contract to sign, or for which there was no understanding of the terms of the contract, which would make the contract unenforceable. An example of an adhesion contract is a gunshot victim being forced to sign a waiver of negligence prior to receiving treatment. If the options are to "die or waive" then obviously a waiver will be signed. THis is not cool. This is also not applicable in skydiving, where you can either skydive or not. The other type of adhesion contract is one that does not set forth clearly and concisely the terms, meaning that the adherent to the contract made no reasonable consent to contract. That's where skydiving waivers that I've seen are nice - they are in big print, lots of bold faced terms like "death," "die," etc. Initialed every paragraph. Notarized, etc. So, when a waiver says, "You waive your right to sue for negligence. [initials] You can die. You can get hurt. This is a dangerous sport. [initials] "You admit you are an idiot, but one with a clear understanding of what can happen. And you know that any lawsuit you bring will be thrown out because you've waived lawsuits against us. [initials] "We aren't making you jump. You can back out at any time. Even now. If fact, we double-dog dare you to. We want you to back out. Because you may die. [initials] " Stuff like that is pretty clear, and the waivers warn nicely. So, both versions of adhesion contract are out the door. Again, the choice is to jump or not jump. Jumping is something that people go their whole lives without doing. So, there is no real adhesion at all. At least, that's what many states have found. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #25 August 8, 2006 QuoteDon't you find them kinda stupid for wanting to go skydiving and thinking there would be no waiver or a waiver that would put all liability on the parties involved? It's easy bash someone who decides not to jump. It's nice ego self-stroking. Let me ask you the question you asked me in a different way. Do you find someone that reads a contract, asks intelligent questions about the contract and then makes an informed choice (one way or the other) based on their clarified insight of the contract to be "stupid"? or: Don't you find people that just assume a sport's waiver's content are ignorant when they can show up and read it in person without having to GUESS? I think those particular customers are great - they showed up, got the facts first, and then made the choice right for them. The only thing they could have done better was to ask about the waiver on the phone ahead of time - which they may have done and still decided to read it first and ask question rather than skip the event. I have issues only with those that sign the waiver and then sue afterword. I can't decide if I have more disdain for "those that don't read it, sign it and sue" vs "those that do read it, sign it and sue." ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
