Butters 0 #1 August 24, 2006 I was reading an incident report regarding an open pilot chute in the A/C and the actions of the occupants and had these questions: 1) If jumpers push someone from the airplane and that person dies or is injured can the people who pushed the jumper face legal consequences? REMOVE QUESTION FOR POLL: Was based on ethics in other hobbies (mountaineering) and appears to be to general for skydiving. To clarify: All for One: Everyone goes down if one goes down. One for All: One goes down so everyone doesn't go down."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #2 August 24, 2006 Your poll makes no sense. Pushing someone out of the plane to save an aircraft and its passengers is not a selfish act nor does it mean that you are killing anyone. You do what you have to to save the most amount of lives in adangerous situation, period. Quick assessment of the situation and a level head will dictate what course of action needs to be taken for each individual situation. It has nothing to do with "general" ethics.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #3 August 24, 2006 Ummm... On the ground; one for all. Once the aircraft leaves the ground; All for one. this should have been drilled into you early on in your five skydives. On the ground, we're all buddies/family. In the air and until you're back in the hangar/loft, everyone is trying to kill you. If you're talking about "pushing someone out of an airplane" as a prank or stunt or act of tort because they're unhappy with them, and they die, OF COURSE there could, and likely would be repurcussions. I don't believe it's a skydiving ethic that prevents skydivers from randomly and arbitrarily pushing people out of airplanes; it's common sense and human ethic that determines whether someone will or not act stupidly or unsafely. What prompted this question? Did you see an AFF instructor push someone out? That is part of the program...and varies in how instructors teach it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #4 August 24, 2006 I am not trying to judge anyones actions or call anyone selfish. (Not intention of this post.) The question regarding legal consequences was based on two events: 1) An incident report in which a jumper was injured when his reserve pilot chute became free in the A/C and other jumpers threw out the pilot chute and jumper (I know that the proper action would have been for the jumper to exit the plane on his own but in these situations he may not have even noticed and thus the other jumpers took what they determined was proper action). In this situation I would hate for anyone to have to deal with legal situations when doing what was determined in a minimal amount of time to be best for everyone (inlcuding the jumper). 2) Reading about people jumping on and or knocking people out the door. In this case there is no danger and the action could be seen as negligent. I'm not saying these people should face legal consequences, nor am I saying I would press the legal action if in a situation. I am just wondering what the law states."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #5 August 24, 2006 I don't think about legal complications when I am in the plane, I think of three things only: how to dive the plan, how to keep every one else from killing me, and finally and most importantly how to keep from killing every one else. Fawk the legal aspect, the priority to live comes first."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #6 August 24, 2006 You can look at it this way, a loose pilotchute is extremely dangerous. If the pilotchute inflates out the door, the jumper is going. If the jumper does not goes volentarily then the parachute will make him go involuntarily! If the parachute extracts him from the plane, the jumper will probably take part of the plane with him and probably be killed in the process! A loose pilotcute can and has killed people and downed planes. If my PC is loose, can't be contained and goes out the door, then push me pull me or shoot me out of a cannon! Do whatever it takes to get me out! I don't want to die and take a plane and it's occupants with me! If after that I try to sue because I bumped something then I must have bumped my head and it's made me retarded to the point that I want to hurt those who saved my life. Now legally, someone could definately bring a case like that up. A good(scumsucking) lawyer may even win it. It would boil down to how well the lawyer could equivocate the facts. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #7 August 25, 2006 If you are dead why do you care about being sued? People die skydiving; it is a high-risk sport. A person with a PC out a door may die and may kill everyone on the plane with him. He is already screwed and will be given better odds of survival if pushed out of the plane. And everyone on the plane will have better odds of survival if he is pushed out too. Legal consequences are irrelevant if everyone is dead. I really suggest you sit down and have a long talk with your instructors over a beer about the life and death issues and consequences of skydiving and the decisions you may have to make and that others may make for you."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #8 August 25, 2006 Once again, I understand in a situation where a PC is free in the A/C the jumper and PC should be removed from the plane, whether the jumper exits or is or pushed it is almost always the best action for everyone involved. I have no problem with the issues of life and death. I am an avid motorcyclist, rock climber, mountaineer, and becoming a skydiver. I put my life in other peoples hands often and am ok with them making quick decisions that affect me. There is a post in the incident report regarding a family suing on behalf of a skydiver involved in an accident. (I am not someone who believes in lawsuits and have expressed this to my family as should everyone so they don't bring lawsuits in your name if something happens to you.) I then read the other incident report regarding the PC ... and just had the question and was looking for peoples thoughts. I would hate for people to become cautious and not take proper action in fear of a lawsuit and would rather see some of these things in the waivers. (Although I doubt in a life and death situation people would first think of lawsuits like most people here have stated.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krkeenan 0 #9 August 25, 2006 QuoteOnce again, I understand Dammit, Butters. Shut up. You asked the question, and other people will reply and state their thoughts. You don't have to argue with each one, just sit back and let the discussion develop. You have a good question. But here's the deal. Guy's PC is out in the plane, he's going to be killed in moments. Pushing him out is the only possible chance he has. If everyone lives, you're a hero. If it doesn't work out, he was toast anyway. That's the rationale for the action. It's very simple and should be presented in first jump courses that way. Kevin K.====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #10 August 25, 2006 If my best friend has his reserve PC pop near the door I am going to rugby tackle him out of the door. Its the best shot I have at saving his life. It's that simple. Just because he's now outside the plane does not mean he's going to die - the reason he's outside is because his parachute was about to deploy. As soon as he's out there, chances are his parachute is gonna do just that. If he stays in the plane there's a high chance he's going to get pulled straight through the fuselage by the deploying parachute. There is a high mortality rate associated with traveling through the fuselage of a plane. It's that simple. Can I, as a skydiving lawyer rule out legal consequences? Nope. I'd be extremely surprised if anyone tried to prosecute me however. I'd be even more surprised if they actually succeeded. But I'm not dumb enough to say it couldn't happen. Your poll choices are based on the misunderstanding that pushing the premi jumper out somehow endangers his life. The choices should be: "kill one, kill all" (ie, do nothing) "save one, save all" (ie, kick the guy out) Pretty easy choice when you look at it like that, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #11 August 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteOnce again, I understand Dammit, Butters. Shut up. You asked the question, and other people will reply and state their thoughts. You don't have to argue with each one, just sit back and let the discussion develop. You have a good question. But here's the deal. Guy's PC is out in the plane, he's going to be killed in moments. Pushing him out is the only possible chance he has. If everyone lives, you're a hero. If it doesn't work out, he was toast anyway. That's the rationale for the action. It's very simple and should be presented in first jump courses that way. Kevin K. krkeenan, Sorry, I am not trying to argue it is just that everyone keeps posting about the PC incident but what I am trying to ask is can other jumpers be sued for their actions (even if they appear to be the correct ones). The reason I ask is if they can then is there anything they can do (reason I mentioned waivers) to better their side in the case of a lawsuit."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #12 August 25, 2006 Quotewhat I am trying to ask is can other jumpers be sued for their actions Anyone can be sued for anything. I think that the rationale expressed by several others that the intent of the action was to save the life of the PC owner, as well as possibly all the others in the aircraft, makes it a "Good Samaritan" sort of action i.e. you had the best intentions, even if it didn't go so well. Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #13 August 25, 2006 QuoteSorry, I am not trying to argue it is just that everyone keeps posting about the PC incident but what I am trying to ask is can other jumpers be sued for their actions (even if they appear to be the correct ones) Welcome to the western world, you could be sued for getting out of bed in the morning. Never let fear of a courtroom prevent you from taking the right action.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #14 August 25, 2006 Thanks for the responses. I got the answeres I was looking for (you can be sued, but if you were acting as a good samaritan in such a situation it strengthens your case) and even though I took down the question for the poll it is interesting to see the results. My other hobbies are more "All for One" where skydiving appears to be "One for All" which is what I expected given the circumstances of skydiving. Thanks everyone for reponses and voting. "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #15 August 25, 2006 QuoteWelcome to the western world, you could be sued for getting out of bed in the morning. Really??? Wow! I guess there's only one thing to do: sleep until noon every day!"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
