You are in charge

[Croc 0]

You are in charge of license requirements for USPA. What changes would you make, if any, and why?

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[packerboy 3]

Get rid of the night jumps for a D.

Not every wants to do them, or has alot of opportunity to do them.

Our runway does not have lights. That doesn't mean we can't do them, just that it is a REAL pain in the ass to get them done. I'll be scrambling to get them in before the end of the summer so that I can get my TI rating. I'm not counting on it.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[popsjumper 2]

Off the top of my head...

1. Require 3 consecutive Instructor/Coach directly supervised PLF landings on the A Proficiency card.

2. Require Instructor/Coach directly supervised accuracy landings on the A Proficiency card.

3. Penalize/fine all jumpers for tandem type butt-slide landings.

3. Penalize/fine upjumpers (other than Instructor/Coach rated) for giving advice to pre-A license students.

4. Penalize/fine pilots who bitch out upjumpers for not getting out the door simply because they say it's OK to jump.
(Have you been there? You're not comfortable with the spot - cloud cover or whatever - and the pilot bitches you out because HE says go and you didn't...maybe even dove the plane down and landed with you still on it. I can see this getting pushed into SC.)

5. Require REAL spotting, both theoretical and practical, for pre-A license students.

6. Keep night jump requirements for D.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[recovercrachead 0]

Take peoples b and c away when they bitch about night jumps. One word BALLIDEST!

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Off the top of my head...

1. Require 3 consecutive Instructor/Coach directly supervised PLF landings on the A Proficiency card.

2. Require Instructor/Coach directly supervised accuracy landings on the A Proficiency card.

3. Penalize/fine all jumpers for tandem type butt-slide landings.

3. Penalize/fine upjumpers (other than Instructor/Coach rated) for giving advice to pre-A license students.

4. Penalize/fine pilots who bitch out upjumpers for not getting out the door simply because they say it's OK to jump.
(Have you been there? You're not comfortable with the spot - cloud cover or whatever - and the pilot bitches you out because HE says go and you didn't...maybe even dove the plane down and landed with you still on it. I can see this getting pushed into SC.)

5. Require REAL spotting, both theoretical and practical, for pre-A license students.

6. Keep night jump requirements for D.

How much do you think they should charge for all of that direct supervision,cause you know they will.


.

[tdog 0]

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3. Penalize/fine upjumpers (other than Instructor/Coach rated) for giving advice to pre-A license students.

How about teach the students to open their ears, but not to believe everything they hear without doing their own fact finding.

"My instructor said it, so it is always right" and "The guy who said it is not an instructor, so it can't be right" are both dangerous thought processes...

And, do you suggest that this rule be enforced on DZ.com, because the moderators will have a lot of work to do if so.

[tdog 0]

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How much do you think they should charge for all of that direct supervision,cause you know they will.

I come from a DZ that now requires 8 coach jumps at $89 each from their approved staff for a student to get an "A", so I guess the answer is $720.

Even at DZs that use the USPA proficiency card and allow any coach to do coach jumps, a few coach jumps are required - and these things can be accomplished during those jumps.


The question is "how accurate"? I personally would rather see a student landing somewhere near the center of the landing area, using a good pattern, concentrating on the landing priorities from the SIM of "Wings level, obstacle free, flare, PLF", than do crazy S turns or whatever trying to hit a target. As they work towards their B - then they can dial it in... (Note, I am not advocating no accuracy, but you can tell when a student knows how to land in the landing area vs landing where the canopy takes them.)

[BIGUN 1,042]

The breadth of requirements for the license structures is sufficient. I; like Popsjumper believe there should be more depth to the PLF and spotting training. Regarding nightjumps... I believe if there were more depth to the night jumps training, people wouldn't be so adverse to it. Night jumps are there for a reason. Some day, some time, one's going to cut the sunset jump too close and the night jumps training is beneficial even if it's just on the other side of nautical twilight..

Point:

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Civil twilight ends when the center of the sun is 6° below the horizon. Although it is still not very dark, it is necessary to use artificial light to carry out most activities.

Nautical twilight ends when the sun's center is 12° below the horizon.

Astronomical twilight ends when the sun's center is 18° below the horizon; by this time even the faintest stars overhead can be seen.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Sockpuppet 0]

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3. Penalize/fine upjumpers (other than Instructor/Coach rated) for giving advice to pre-A license students.

It would be too hard to implement. People would have to sign waivers just to chat in the bar.

Student: Should I Down This Quart Of Jack Daniels.
Other: Sign here, here and inital here and I'll think about it.

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Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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"My instructor said it, so it is always right"

YET everyone a new jumper asks questions to say "refer to your instructor..."

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[riggerrob 558]

I would keep the existing equipment knowledge requirements at the A level, but increase them at higher licenses.
For example, I would require Bs to attach 3-Ring risers to a harness.
... Cs to assemble a main canopy, including attaching the pilot chute and d-bag along with connecting lines to risers.
... Ds would be handed a bolt of fabric, a spool of suspension line and a sewing machine.
Hee!
Hee!

[councilman24 36]

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How much do you think they should charge for all of that direct supervision,cause you know they will.

Less than the deductable on a trip to the hospital. I was thinking the other day how many times I hit more than hard enough to break something but didn't because I could PLF as well as roll when going even faster.

And I wouldn't charge anything.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

It was accuracy landings, not accurate landings.

Learning that with many or most starting canopies you can land from partial brakes, make small corrections while in brakes, etc, would keep people from making ill advised turns and landing mistakes. Always seeing people flying full out doing high performance landings doesn't make newbies aware of slow flight capabilities.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

There's a lot of things we don't want to do. But especially as a TI you should know the effects of low light on depth perception and landing. Those sunset loads with traffic holds that get awfully dark should be the first time you jump when things are getting grey.

While true night jumps can be a choice, twilight jumps are often a matter of circumstances.

The argument is often that more things should be added. While being an expert in all disciplines is now probably unreasonable, exposure to all disciplines is appropriate.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Andy9o8 0]

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You are in charge of license requirements for USPA. What changes would you make, if any, and why?

Yank licenses for bitching about how hard the license requirements are.

Student driver during license test: "I don't think I should have to prove I can parallel park. I live in Mayberry, and we only use angle parking there."

Grizzled Examiner: "You know, you're right. Let's crack a beer instead."

I will make one exception: the DZ's that require so many expensive coach jumps just to get your A. As if you haven't been buggered raw enough by the cost of AFF & gear rental. Spence's previous threads about that are dead right. Highway robbery.

[packerboy 3]

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Take peoples b and c away when they bitch about night jumps. One word BALLIDEST!

I have sat through the formal night jump training and have been willing and waiting to do night jumps for two years.

No pilots, no load fillers, no car parkers or ground crew.

I have landed in the dark on "unintentional" night jumps (with sunglasses on). If you think it is that much harder than landing during the day, you are getting a tad anal. It's not the perfect scenario, but if you afford a little more caution than usual you are fine. I left the sunglasses on under canopy because I was liking the dark and felt perfectly comfortable landing with them on. If you have all the other requirements for a D and can't land a post-dusk jump, you got other problems, you can't land very good or make a good decision after 500 jumps! The real problem scenario is having an A licence jumper w/ 30 jumps on one of these jumps. You know what, they need at least a B licence to do the night jumps in the first place (I think).

I am perfectly willing and able to do night jumps, but I am not going to drive 5 hours to "maybe" get a couple in because we don't do them at my dropzone. You might as well make 10 tailgate style aircraft exits a requirement. I could be wrong, but I think CSPA makes a water jump a requirement too, that's just as retarded. Training maybe, but not the actual jump. I could deal with night jump TRAINING being a requirement.

The maybe you might need the training if you get on a sunset load that gets a traffic hold argument is bullshit. If you get in that situation with over 500 jumps and you can't handle it, you shouldn't be making ANY decisions for yourself.

You can have my B and C licences if you want, they aren't worth shit except being able to do night jumps...

What the heck is BALLIDEST? Some old school name for someone who doesn't do night jumps (intentionally)?

Edited to add: Actually I think CSPA only requires water training, not the actual jump.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[packerboy 3]

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There's a lot of things we don't want to do. But especially as a TI you should know the effects of low light on depth perception and landing. Those sunset loads with traffic holds that get awfully dark should be the first time you jump when things are getting grey.

While true night jumps can be a choice, twilight jumps are often a matter of circumstances.

The argument is often that more things should be added. While being an expert in all disciplines is now probably unreasonable, exposure to all disciplines is appropriate.

We don't put tandems out after sunset unless the instructor is trained and proficient, period. Nobody can tell me I HAVE to make any jump. It's called making a smart decision for the safety of the passenger, kind of like not leaving the laterals loose enough to do freeflying beside the tandem passenger. If you can't make smart decisions for the safety of the passenger you shouldn't be a TI. Problem is you can't just ask people if they are a dumbass before they take course and expect a good answer. If you have 500+ jumps and you haven't already landed in the dark, then it is because you made the decision to not land in the dark and stuck with it, not because the situation hasn't presented itself. And you will make that decision again if need be.


BTW: I WANT to do night jumps!

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[airtwardo 6]

Nobody can tell me I HAVE to make any jump.

***

The Pilot in Command can!

"Get out we're on fire" has happen before and will again.


This is a sport not a Disneyland ride, and we are not pre preprogrammed sheep.

You need to conscientiously prepare yourself for any and all possibilities.

In baseball a good infielder doesn't just wait for a ball to be hit to them, they play the wind, sun, field condition, batter, strike count...every variable is considered.

If they don't have their mind in the game they maybe get an error, maybe lose a game...if 'our' mind isn't in the game we can die.

During the ride up...ask yourself what would I do if I had to get out here and now.

Suddenly you become more aware of the terrain surrounding the dropzone.

You tend to start automatically keying of subtle things like the trash fire 5 miles away that could give you a wind direction for an off site landing.

Would I pull right out the door at 7000 feet in an aircraft emergency, or would doing that get me blown out over that lake.

How often do you think about what you would do if your reserve blew during your line up to exit...what about if the guy NEXT to you had his blow.

No, you don't 'have' to do anything you don't want to on a 'normal' day...

It's those rare ab normals you need to prepare for.

May come a time you 'have to' save your ass, having in your mind possible contingency's may help you, denial won't.









Training maybe, but not the actual jump. I could deal with night jump TRAINING being a requirement.

~~'Training' and 'Doing' are two different animals...

Takes less time to 'tell' someone how to cutaway and pull a reserve than it does to hang 'em in a harness and 'make' them do it 10 times...
Which way is better?

The old Theory vs. Practical Application argument.

The U.S. Navy figured out that fighter pilots with less hours but 'actual' combat experience stayed alive longer than pilots with two and three times more flying hours of 'training' but no realistic combat experience...
~Top-Gun~

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

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One word BALLIDEST!

OK, I give up. If that is a word what does it mean?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airtwardo 6]

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One word BALLIDEST!

OK, I give up. If that is a word what does it mean?

It's what my hairline is trying to achive after jumping with 'Bigun'!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[packerboy 3]

Well ya, the pilot can.. but he can't make me do it at night!

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[airtwardo 6]

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Well ya, the pilot can.. but he can't make me do it at night!

Unless say there is an aircraft that crashes at the dz and closes it during your sunset load. The pilot has to divert to another airport / area, and runs outta fuel en-route after dusk...


But since things NEVER go wrong, and nothin' bad or unplanned ever happens...why even THINK about it, much less PREPARE...right?!


Anyone remember when we didn't wear seat belts...what could possibly go wrong during the CLIMB?


Night jumps are NOT a hard thing to do!

The 'Boogieman' doesn't skydive...I checked!!

Requiring a night jump is just a simple way to ask you to demonstrate that you can cope with the small amount of stress it takes to get training and do it right. To vary your 'routine' so to speak.

If you won't do something as easy to learn and perform a night or water jump...you can pretend it doesn't matter, and attempt to take measures to insure you'll never NEED those skills, which you might not...

~you're just not qualified as an 'Expert'.

Doesn't mean you are a better or worse skydiver...you're just 'limited'.



Baaaaa BAAAAAA!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[packerboy 3]

Having a D licence doesn't mean you are an expert skydiver either.

Like I said, I want to do night jumps.. I just don't have the opportunity. I don't think the night jump training is necessary to prove that you can land after dusk by the time you have all the other requirements for a D.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[mabend 0]

Well I'm still new to all this, so my 2 cents might not be worth that much yet. Also, let me start by saying that I'm looking forward to doing some night jumps, I'll bet it's a lot of fun.

However, I can see why people think it's unnecessary as a requirement. I wouldn't compare it to parallel parking though, more like driving a manual transmission. It's part of driving so maybe that should be part of getting your license, but people go their whole lives without learning it for whatever reason. Sure, there may be some random time when you would need to do it (the first time I drove a stick was my friend's car when she got in an accident and didn't want to drive it home), but there are ways out of it (call someone who can drive it). Same with night jumping.. if it's getting close to sunset and you aren't comfortable jumping in the dark, just don't get on the plane.

As with everything else in this sport, no one should have to do anything they feel uncomfortable doing. The consequence is far greater than burning a clutch on a car.

[airtwardo 6]

Having a D licence doesn't mean you are an expert skydiver either.

***

I kinda said that, though in a more round about way I guess...but having the D says you 'qualified' as a expert.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~