Is death game legal?

[Ron 7]

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Sure, start a pool and go for the shock value - thats one way. But while your at it, why don't you start one on who's going to cause the death of another jumper? Ya know, the guy that doesn't listen and does a 180 in the pattern taking out another jumper? Or the guy who tracks up the line of flight?

See if they risk someone else safety, you ground them. It they risk their own only, then you talk to them.

When they don't listen, you try to get someone else to talk to them. When they don't listen you get the DZO, or S&TA to talk to them. When they don't listen you either try to shock them, or you ground them.

If you ground them, they just go die somewhere else.

If you shock them they might survive.

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Maybe I'm just paranoid - but I don't see how starting a pool to see who wins as DGIT of the year when the safety of other jumpers could be/is at stake. I'd had to think that after being talked to 3 or 4 times all that was done was a bunch of folks making money off him.

Its not DGIT of the year....You can have multiple "winners" in a year (Although not the same guy of course).

But sometimes the best you can do is warn, then watch the carnage....Might as well have a beer.

Its not like the pots are ever really much. And the one bingo I played in there was never really any money collected. We did it for the shock value of an ego manic.

This JACKASS follwed me out with a student WITHOUT ASKING, he then docked on us, and funneled the student. I had to punch hi in the face to make him let go.

I was just flat out gonna kick his ass when he landed....But the S&TA had a better idea and made a chart with this guys name on it....He walked up to this jackass and asked him, "Hey we are taking a bounce bingo on you, want in, its only 5 bucks a slot?...Oh wait, not really something you want in on. No point really".

He left, it worked.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[RhondaLea 3]

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How is that working in this case? The jumper just wants off the list and doesn't seem overly concerned about meeting any "peer pressure" reasons for being on there initally.

It worked well enough for Veter to come here seeking a second opinion. Unfortunately, in spite of the overwhelming consensus that he needs to look to himself, not to others, as having a problem, he is going to perceive the few objections to the practice as support for himself.

I will spare you a psych lesson, but in the end, if "Bounce Bingo" works as corrective action for the majority, it's worthwhile. Every now and again, you are going to have people who refuse to learn, no matter how baldly the lesson is laid out for them.

That being said, my hope is that Veter will have his revenge--that he will live and hurt no one.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Newbie 0]

The problem is he didn't come here seeking a second opinion - he wanted clarification on legal ramifications to see if he had grounds to threaten with legal action if he wasn't removed from the list.

How is that learning to be a safer skydiver?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[white_falcon 0]

Oh, and for anyone that's interested,

Blood On The Risers --

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1981/38405/west_point/songs/bloodontherisers.htm

I Don't know how to make it a clicky here

Scott

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I agree with this sentiment. Saying that someone has been warned and spoken to enough but he just won't listen is, in my opinion, a cop-out. That is like a judge telling a habitual criminal that jail-time doesn't work for him, so he may as well walk free, while the lawyers take bets on how long it is before someone takes him out. The habitual criminal spends time; the habitual DGIT should get/stay grounded.

Like Ron said, you ground him, he dies somewhere else. You use things like the list and maybe you save him, which is the goal. The list exists because people care.

Derek

[RhondaLea 3]

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The problem is he didn't come here seeking a second opinion - he wanted clarification on legal ramifications to see if he had grounds to threaten with legal action if he wasn't removed from the list.

How is that learning to be a safer skydiver?

How does being grounded teach one to be a safer skydiver? How does anything teach one to be a safer skydiver? Some people only learn after they're lifeflighted out, and some never learn at all.

Either you twig to the fact that you are a problem or you don't.

I'm not going to debate this. You don't like "Bounce Bingo." I do. I think it's an effective tool for anyone who has sufficient insight to examine his/her own behavior. Skydiving is not a politically correct, "Ken and Barbie" sport. Grounding is for children, and skydivers are not children.

Me, I'm all about logical consequences.

Therefore, at this point, if I were Tom I'd talk to the keeper of the list, have Veter's name removed and then I'd ground his ass until he learns how to be a real skydiver--in spirit, as well as in practice.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Newbie 0]

You think grounding is for children and ineffective, yet you would "ground his ass until he learns to be a real skydiver"? That makes no sense to me.

Grounding is not just about trying to forcibly teach someone to be safer - of course it depends on whether that person wants to learn to be safer in the first place. It's about removing them from your and my, any everyone elses air space as they might pose a danger to someone other than themselves, which many skydivers are too selfish to understand and/or care about. They either address what needs to be done to make operations safe or they leave, which, while maybe not teaching them anything (and some people will not want to learn) but at least keeps the rest of us safe. Too many people have a selfish view of skydiving, that they can do what they want, it's their life...well to an extent that's true, but all of us can do without someone like that being around us while we try and practice the sport safely. People doing things they consider within their skills level and they think they are doing safely have killed other skydivers.

Skydiving being politically correct is neither here nor there. It's about safety to me and, while i agree, grounding might not make someone safer, it at least means they aren't on your and my load, possibly doing something to endanger others, keeping others safer at the very least. I'm all for bounce bingo if you have a big board up and it's totally open and transparent to all that you are on there - this encourages learning and encourages those people to get themselves off the list. I'm just not into it when it's less about trying to stop someone hurting themselves or others, and more about "he won't listen, oh well, let's at least make some money out of this and have some fun". If it gets to that point, the guy should not have the privledge to jump there.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Skydiving being politically correct is neither here nor there. It's about safety to me

Reading this thread makes me feel like there are many new jumpers who would let a friend die just to avoid hurting their feelings or pride.

Once you have to start taking off your shoes and borrowing your friends' hands in order to count all of your friends that have died needlessly in this sport, your views might change.

Sure, it's morbid humor. But considering that skydiving is perhaps the ultimate expression of freedom, Bounce Bingo seems far more appropriate than grounding a jumper. This is especially at a DZ like the Ranch, where that freedom is valued over most everything else.

For Great Deals on Gear

[Newbie 0]

How do you equate what i have said with doing something to let someone i know die rather than speak up? If anyone - friends or otherwise - are doing something i consider unsafe to themselves or myself, i speak up. I've already lost friends and, and i'm not afraid to be looked at condescendinly or like i'm an idiot just for speaking up on something. How does playing bounce bingo assist with saving lives if you allow someone to be in the sky who is considered unsafe to either themselves or someone else?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[pilotdave 0]

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If it gets to that point, the guy should not have the privledge to jump there.

To start over elsewhere? Maybe someone shouldn't be jumping at all, but a DZ can't usually make that decision. They can only send him elsewhere.

I think some people miss the point that the whole thing IS pretty sick and twisted AND THAT'S OK! This isn't kindergarten. We don't all have to play nice. If a grounding is the equivalent of beating someone up, this is the equivalent of a sonic wedgie.

Dave

[Newbie 0]

You're missing the point. I don't care about it being sick and twisted - i can see how it can actually be a useful learning tool to those prepared to learn from being on the list. I like the idea if its on a big board up in the packing area. If however, that person flagrantly continues with endangering other people through selfish actions, i'd rather they weren't near me and that my DZO booted them, and then picked up the phone and let other local DZ's know the situation which is a not unheard of turn of events. If you are passed the point of trying to teach someone something they are not prepared to learn, then it's about damage limitation to themselves and to others. Maybe that's just me though.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[pilotdave 0]

But for some people, it's attitude, not actions that make people perceive them as a danger. They don't necessarily have to do anything wrong/unsafe. Some of em just need a constant reminder that they need to think about what they're doing.

A good near death experience can help too!
Dave

[Newbie 0]

True.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[RhondaLea 3]

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You think grounding is for children and ineffective, yet you would "ground his ass until he learns to be a real skydiver"? That makes no sense to me.

You're the one who wants to ground people. I'm the one who wants to play "Bounce Bingo." Let's keep it straight.

The recommendation I made to Tom at the end of my last post has little to do with safety, but it has everything to do with coming to dz.com and making USPA and FAA and general legal threats.

There's more to being a skydiver than merely jumping out of an airplane.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[phoenixlpr 0]

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You think grounding is for children and ineffective, yet you would "ground his ass until he learns to be a real skydiver"? That makes no sense to me.

I think that's not going that way. First of all grounding is about motivation.

A skydiver wants to jump.
Anyway if A is grounded, he/she won't endanger you or others.
A might go other places if he/she wants to jump while in B place he/she is gounded. At least he/she might avoid the same trouble or getting so bad reputation that he/she can not afford.

IMHO grounding someone for a reasonable time is good and this BB is quite OK.

For those upset ones: it's no point to piss against the wind. It's better to be on a BB list than in a fatality/injury report.

[Andy9o8 0]

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...my last post has little to do with safety, but it has everything to do with coming to dz.com and making USPA and FAA and general legal threats.

There's more to being a skydiver than merely jumping out of an airplane.

Exactly right, like being part of a community. And remember, he's not just threatening official sanctions & legal action, he's actually making public accusations that particular people are attemtping to murder him by sabotaging his gear. What does that say about perception and judgment? Frankly I don't blame someone on the receiving end of that kind of accusation from being a little pissy in response.

[tigra 0]

You might want to read all the way through this thread. A number of people think the game is sick, but pretty much everyone agrees if you're on the list, there's a reason. And that reason is far more important than whether or not the game is legal or appropriate. I could say more, but I doubt it would sink in. Which is of course part of the reason you made the list to begin with, right?

[billvon 2,384]

>Saying that someone has been warned and spoken to enough but
>he just won't listen is, in my opinion, a cop-out. That is like a judge
> telling a habitual criminal that jail-time doesn't work for him, so he
> may as well walk free . .. .

See, though, we can't put people in jail. It's as if we have the juries but no power. "You're grounded!" "OK, asshole, I'm going to Perris." "You're grounded there too!" "OK, I'm going to Eloy."

>The habitual criminal spends time; the habitual DGIT should
> get/stay grounded.

There is simply no way to do that, even if it did work. We don't have a way to ground someone in the US. And besides, wouldn't you rather get shit about your mistakes than get grounded?

[dragon2 0]

You can't take someone's license away from him, for a while? Over here we can, and we can ground people too. Max time is 10 yrs off the top of my head.

An instructor can ground you on the dz in question of course, but the KNVvL has a sanction committee that can do more than that. You can get punished by them for beaking the rules (BVR and BR) and/or for doing dangerous stuff. It's not done often, a few times per year tops I believe, but it sure can be done.

The sanctions have limited scope, ie I think if you're grounded in The Netherlands you can still go jump in another country, esp if you still have a license, but I think it helps!

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mattjw916 2]

Even if you take away their license and kick them out of the USPA, there are plenty of DZs in the US that aren't USPA group members, or don't like the USPA, and will happily let them jump.

The skydiving community is so small, things like this tend to sort themselves out, either that or the person quits, in my short experience.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[TALONSKY 0]

I think you are missing the bigger picture, we are a community and a very tight knit community at that. Does this mean you have to get along with everyone? No. Does this mean that you should be an adult and just overlook the issues that irritate you? Yes (or find another place to skydive). It really is not that difficult to get along with people that irritate you( hell I work with people I flat out hate at my normal job and I treat them with professional courtesy). You probably have ostracized yourself out of the community especially after this thread, but that is your fault.
Oh as far as the kiting your canopy, if you were asked not to do this after landing, Why continue to do it?. Really does it take that much pleasure out of your skydive to not be able to kite your canopy after landing? If you like to kite your canopy go to a local park and kite it all you want all day long(no one will care). Just listening to you, you have brought most of this on yourself and I am sorry to say this but you sound more like a spoidbrat kid than an adult
Kirk

[tso-d_chris 0]

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How do you equate what i have said with doing something to let someone i know die rather than speak up? If anyone - friends or otherwise - are doing something i consider unsafe to themselves or myself, i speak up.

All BB is about is speaking up about a jumper's habits. It also can have the benefit of offering a warning to other skydivers that a jumper amongst them may pose a danger to others and/or themselves. Is it sick and morbid? Yes. But that does not make it bad. It adds to the shock value, which is exactly the point.

The game is a way for jumpers to collectively say, "Dude, you're not ten feet tall and bullet proof. If you keep acting like it, you're gonna die, or worse yet, take someone else out. Stop it."

For Great Deals on Gear

[billvon 2,384]

>You can't take someone's license away from him, for a while?

Effectively no. You could kick them out of USPA, but:

1. they would still have their card; that's all DZO's ever look at

2. the process is very rarely used, and normally reserved for DZ's/instructors who are seriously dangerous to other jumpers

3. not all DZ's care about your USPA membership.

[Praetorian 1]

Sorry you got hurt, glad you lived and seem to have learned.
Flame deleted. Please do not flame people here. 'Fuck the bitch' counts as a flame.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[maxf 0]

Yurka, stop wining! Paranoya is getting better of you.
Or as the sign says: Shut up and Jump!