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veter_

Is death game legal?

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Listen, there is a lot that goes on at the Ranch that might be a little rough around the edges. Face it, we are not choir boys and girls. We can joke around in rude and crude ways at times.

As far as someone doing anything to your gear. I doubt that anything was done intentionally. If you leave your gear layinga round the packing mat, it can get moved, stepped on, etc, etc. I can think on NO ONE who would mess with your gear at the RANCH. We may joke around; but, there are certain limits that are never passed. Messing with someone's gear is one of them.

B


The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

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I find it hard to believe that someone collapsed half your slider,. ... and even if they did, you should definately notice that when you quarter it (if you dont, well.....)



I also find it hard to believe that someone would mess with your shit. I did my aff up there 10 years ago. If your on the list you must be a fuck up. Best thing for you is change your attitude or move DZ.
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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To those who replied "why are you on the list?", I thought it's called sadomasochism to blame yourself if someone abuses you. And that you endorse death games says a lot about you.



If you are ON the list it says tons about you. It says that you do stupid things, but blame others and don't listen.

BTW get a dictionary...sadomasochism is getting pleasure from physical or emotional abuse, not blaming yourself.

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I don't need to explain myself



Nope, but if you start crying about something you should be willing to stand up to the questions you are gonna get about it.

If someone told me I was a DGIT I'd want to know why, not cry about it.

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- Is it legal to harrass someone by putting his name on a death list and collecting money, if that person explicitly demanded to stop?



Maybe depends on the state you live in.....But by crying about it you are not going to make any friends.

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- Is it legal for "players" to play the game which may solicit tampering with the equipment (or, for example, cutoff on landing) to win the game or to get the revenge?



Hurting someone on purpose is illegal no matter what.

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- What action can I take to stop this fucking sick shit?



1. Stop being a DGIT.
2. Stop crying about it. Living would be the best revenge...(See #1 above)

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- I have a suspicion that my equipment was attempted to tamper with after the argument - specifically, one side of the slider was half collapsed after I uncollapsed the slider and left my parachute unattended, which could have lead to hard opening or a malfunction. How can I protect myself?



If you don't like the place, don't jump there. If I didn't trust my gear on the mat, I'd never leave it unattended....I'd really just find a new DZ.

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P.S. Those who think such a harrassment is a normal thing, leave this thread alone.



Ah, we answered your question. YOU didn't like the answers.

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P.P.S. I have the official rules of the game, but I'm too lazy to type them in.



No need, most of us that have been around know the game.

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P.P.P.S. I can't believe this is happening at the Ranch, one of the best good vibe DZs in the world!



Well, if 99 out of 100 don't mind it...Then its just YOUR reaction that is not in tune with the DZ.

Posts like this don't help:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1623213#1623213



Anyone notice that the new folks don't understand this at all?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I think at almost every dz, there is someone "keeping track" of who is expected to make it and whose gonna bite it. Those lists change as jumpers mature and listen to the experienced people around them, those that don't listen and have a bad attitude usually get added to the list.

Now, I don't think most dz actually have a betting pool, although some probably do and will continue to. I share my "list" with only a few people. I really really hope I'm wrong.[:/]

No one will mess with your shit, most likely. Now is the time to think about what you have done to be put on the list, what you can do to get off it and have you pissed off someone enough to mess with you gear and commit murder or attempted murder.

You still haven't answered what so many have asked. Why are you on the list? If you give that answer you might get more constructive replies.

J
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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Posts like this don't help:http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1623213#1623213



Actually, I don't see anything wrong with that post. He's thinking about how things work, and willing to consider doing them a different way, and asking about it before declaring it to be the new way of the world. Nothing wrong with that. We used to experiment with all kinds of things -- ask me about my homemade square pilot chute sometime :P.

However -- to the original poster -- if you don't like the list, don't participate. But do ask why you're on it. If it's because people are scared for you, ask why. Notice the other people on the list -- are they all of the respected senior jumpers, or do they tend to be people who are closer to having an accident?

Everyone gets cut off some times. The deal is that experience can teach you to have several outs when you see a situation that might end up in being cut off. And lack of experience should lead you to avoid situations where you need to exercise that kind of foresight before you have it.

Find out, think about it, then have a beer with your friends at your DZ.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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To those who replied "why are you on the list?", I thought it's called sadomasochism to blame yourself if someone abuses you. And that you endorse death games says a lot about you.

If you're being harrassed (your word) simply because you're a little different, that's unfortunate. If you're on the list because you do things to endanger yourself, you should consider the message and maybe modify your conduct so as to change others' opinons of you as a jumper

I don't need to explain myself.

True enough. But perception is reality, and if you're perceived as being a dangerous jumper...well, see above.

I removed my name from the death list and explicitly demanded the "organizer" (money collector) that she never puts it back. She refused, and put my name back, with an embarrassing nickname.

So let me rephrase my question - and add more:

- Is it legal to harrass someone by putting his name on a death list and collecting money, if that person explicitly demanded to stop?

Probably, unless you can convince a prosecutor that you're being targeted for death. Do you really, REALLY think that?

- Is it legal for "players" to play the game which may solicit tampering with the equipment (or, for example, cutoff on landing) to win the game or to get the revenge?

I'm guessing gambling is illegal in New York. But most cops won't care if it's at such a small level it's like the neighborhood poker game.
Then again, deliberate tampering with someone's parachute could be considered attempted murder. Is that really, REALLY what you're trying to say -- that there's a consipracy at that DZ to murder you? That's quite an accusation. Please consider the implications and consequences.


- What action can I take to stop this fucking sick shit?

Depends on what it is and what caused it. If it's just people bugging you, you can either try to get along better; or if you're sure it's "them" and not "you", I guess you just decide whether to jump there anymore. Do you really want to sic a lawyer on them? To do what? force them to be nice to you?

- I have a suspicion that my equipment was attempted to tamper with after the argument - specifically, one side of the slider was half collapsed after I uncollapsed the slider and left my parachute unattended, which could have lead to hard opening or a malfunction. How can I protect myself?

Again, I urge you to consider the implications of what you're saying. Are you really willing to take the step of accusing people of conspiracy to murder you? Are you willing to smear the reputation of that DZ in a public forum like this with that kind of accusation?

P.S. Those who think such a harrassment is a normal thing, leave this thread alone.

How you view it is your choice. You can view it as harrassment. Some people at some DZs are a little rough at people who are a little different. Did you ever ask anyone why you're on the list? If the answer is because you're simply unliked, go jump somewhere else. If it's because you're thought of as unsafe, how about keeping an open mind and trying to make yourself a safer jumper?

P.P.S. I have the official rules of the game, but I'm too lazy to type them in.

P.P.P.S. I can't believe this is happening at the Ranch, one of the best good vibe DZs in the world!

Again, I urge you to seriously (re-)consider the implications and consequences of what you're saying.

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Tom,

I have no problem with anything - regardless of how "under-the-table" or "no rules, only regulations" it is - as long as it does not hurt me. I love the Ranch for it's freedom and good vibe. Those who try to harrass others, are vibe killers.

I am not spending $1000+ a month at the Ranch to see my name on the death list. I did not survive and return to skydiving after my low-jump-number accident to be ridiculed for the rest of my life.

I jump safe, and I don't need to explain anything beyond saying that.

If I demand to stop, she gotta stop. This thing got under my skin.

And my sense of humor is good enough to roll on the floor laughing my ass out almost all the time at the Ranch :P

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If you survive a certain number of jumps, do you get the cash? That's how it was done where I used to jump, just for one guy when he bought a VX 74. Everyone picked what jump number on that canopy he'd go in on. If he survived 100 jumps, he won the money. I tried to make a deal with him... "I'll pick jump #50... go in on that jump on purpose and I'll split the winnings with you." He said "Thats a good idea! Oh, wait a minute..."

He won, btw.

If you know you're not dangerous, forget the list and prove it. After a while, nobody will want to bet on you.

Threatening a law suit or other action (which of course you haven't done directly), especially at a dropzone like that, isn't going to make you very popular. You obviously earned your way onto the list. Complaining will only make it worse. Being safe will make it better.

Dave

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I have no problem with anything - regardless of how "under-the-table" or "no rules, only regulations" it is - as long as it does not hurt me. I love the Ranch for it's freedom and good vibe. Those who try to harrass others, are vibe killers.



How can u say they have a good vibe when you accuse them of trying to kill you?

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I am not spending $1000+ a month at the Ranch to see my name on the death list.



then either A. Go to a different DZ, B. Become a safer skydiver by listening to those with more experience or C. Dont look at the list

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I jump safe, and I don't need to explain anything beyond saying that



That to me speaks untrue if others say you are going to die in this sport, Im a shitty ass skydiver, Im surprised I survive everytime, yet my name is not on a list and when I get advice from people I trust in this sport ...guess what? I listen and I improve. I dont improve nearly as much as I would like, but Im still alive and NOT on a death list....

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If I demand to stop, she gotta stop. This thing got under my skin.



ROFLMAO yea, okay
Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

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If I demand to stop, she gotta stop. This thing got under my skin.

And my sense of humor is good enough to roll on the floor laughing my ass out almost all the time at the Ranch



She doesn't gotta stop because it isn't her game. It's a public game developed by other Ranch members and she is just collecting the money.

I'd suggest you find out who bought your name and then speak to that person. If you can convince the purchaser that you are not likely to die, or no longer need the public incentive of being on the list, then perhaps that person will ask the game manager to change his selection. Or perhaps the purchaser will tell you your name was selected as a long shot.

As for slider tampering, or attacks to kill you, I doubt that will be happening at The Ranch. The pot in Modified Bounce Bingo is less than $100.00, and the vibes are pretty darn good. I'm the Safety and Training Advisor and sometimes that makes me unpopular, but I've always felt that my gear was safe, even when I leave it unlocked through the week.

This Modified Bounce Bingo thing really isn't a big deal, and I hope you can find other things to get under your skin. How about the appointment of John Bolton to the UN? Or perhaps world hunger. I tend to get pissed off about our failed energy policy that drives consumption rather than conservation, and I sometimes even get pissed about the national policy to destroy our wilderness areas. Think big...there are plenty of meaningful things to get pissed off about.
.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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He-he ;) Even if I jump that cliff without a parachute and land my wingsuit, it doesn't make my skydiving at the Ranch less safe.

You are correct, Sir, I am one of the safest skydivers at the Ranch. I don't like to praise myself, but since you mentioned it...:D

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>I thought it's called sadomasochism to blame yourself if someone
>abuses you.

No; it's masochism if someone abuses you and you like it.

>And that you endorse death games says a lot about you.

Many skydivers have at one time or another. Sometimes it gets through to them when nothing else can. Is this death-game thing pissing you off? Then at least it got your attention. That's its strength.

>Is it legal to harrass someone by putting his name on a death list
>and collecting money, if that person explicitly demanded to stop?

No, no more so than it is for you and your friend to bet on who wins a local competition.

>Is it legal for "players" to play the game which may solicit tampering
> with the equipment (or, for example, cutoff on landing) to win the
> game or to get the revenge?

Separate issue. Deal with people who cut you off on a case by case basis.

>What action can I take to stop this fucking sick shit?

Jump somewhere else.

>I have a suspicion that my equipment was attempted to tamper with
> after the argument - specifically, one side of the slider was half
> collapsed after I uncollapsed the slider and left my parachute
> unattended, which could have lead to hard opening or a
> malfunction. How can I protect myself?

Do good gear inspections before packing. If you feel that you are a target for this sort of thing jump somewhere else. Also realize that most skydivers forget to completely unkill their slider at one point or another; this is hardly evidence of sabotage. (If it is, someone is definitely trying to kill me!)

>I can't believe this is happening at the Ranch, one of the best good
> vibe DZs in the world!

This would be the same Ranch that has that Wall of Pain?

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Maybe USPA and FAA will like the death game so much that we'll soon see the list of winners in the incidents section in Parachutist.



So you're gonna write the USPA and the FAA about your problems? Man, that's a quick way to become unwelcome at many many DZs instead of "fixing your problems."
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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When you say that someone tampered with your gear I hear an open accusation aimed at EVERYONE at my DZ. IF you have speccific proof and know who the person is - you NEED to name them. NOBODY wants such a person at their DZs.

Or may be you just need to get your head out of your a$$ and check your gear properly everytime.

Listening to people on this forum as well as at the Ranch, trying to figure out why your name is on that list and why you are making all those solo jumps, may also be a good option.

Bottom line - you need to find another DZ. When you do, consider what caused you to find this new DZ in the first place. See if you can avoid history repeating itself...

BTW, i think i will be buying another ticket with your name on it.
SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

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- What action can I take to stop this fucking sick shit?



Start listening, clearly you do not do that very well. You are on the list for a reason, if I had to guess, it is because you do not listen and repeat mistakes that have been made before. You got some very good advice in this thread, you just don't like it. Don't ask questions you don't want to hear the answers to.

You seem unwilling to consider the possibility that you belong on the list. You should start there.

Derek

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Yuri,

It doesn't matter if its legal or illegal. What matters is you have been labeled unsafe by the jumpers at The Ranch. I think its time for you check that ego and attitude at the gate when you come to DZ. In our skydiving carriers we all do stupid things but to be labeled unsafe takes a lot more than just doing a couple stupid things. It mostly takes just not listening to people.

I approached you about something you were doing that could seriously hurt other jumpers. I very politely explained to you why what you were doing could hurt or kill someone and asked you if you would stop. You shrugged me off like I didn't know what I was talking about and you said what you were doing was perfectly safe. You continued to do it. Thank God you seemed to lose interest in that activity. Its reasons like that you have been labeled unsafe.

We didn't start this bounce bingo because we wanted to make fun of anyone in any way. Trying to talk reason to people who won't listen is very frustrating. Some people just don't want to here what the more experienced skydivers have to say. So if they don't listen, like you don't, we hope the people that are on this list might finally realize there is something wrong and they should address those issues. I know its a drastic measure to make something like that so public but it does work with some.

Now you go and publicly threaten one of the most loved jumpers at our club with a law suit Instead of asking why did I get on this list. You have a lot of work to do before people start to think your safe let alone just like you.

If you want to find someplace else to jump then by all means contact the FAA, USPA, FBI, PETA and get a good lawyer and take some girl to court who has nothing but her love of skydiving. If you want to keep jumping at The Ranch start listening to people, ask questions about how you could be safer and figure out why no one will jump with you.

--Grouper

P.S. It wouldn't hurt by starting with an apology to Kim.
(insert philosophical quote here)

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