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nael

Safire2 189 Vs PD 170

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I am just off student status, and have begun jumping smaller canopies. Last weekend I did my first 2 jumps on a Safire2 189 (with about 20 jumps on it) which I am hiring from the dz. I downsized from a 240. The main I bought is a PD 170 (with about 10 jumps on it), and although most of my instructors say I'd be ok to jump it, my landings under the 240 were pretty bad (stood up 3 out of 30!) so i decided to jump the 189 for a few jumps before going to my 170 (wingloading 0.7:1).

Now, here's my question. My landings were pretty crap (as expected) under the 189. I was planning on jumping it again for the next few weeks to get used to it, but then I realised the 189(ZP) and 170(F111) will fly and land completely differently to each other.

Are their flying and flaring/landing characteristics so different that jumping the 189 more would make little difference to how well I land the 170? If the landing/flaring characteristics of the 170 are significantly different to the 189 would I be better off just jumping the 170 now and learning how it flies instead of wasting time on the 189? If I could find a PD 190 to jump I would, because it'd be fairly similar to my 170 (i expect) but it's not an option. These are the 2 canopies I have to choose from. Also, the harness the 189 is in is a little big on me, and I can reach the toggles but it does take (a little more) effort, and I was thinking my bad landings could be enhanced because I am unable to get a full flare out of it? (or am I just making excuses? :S)

Sorry for such a long post, but I'm trying to answer questions I think people might ask before they ask them! Any opinions would be appreciated - obviously I will be discussing this with my instructors on the weekend aswell.
www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

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I don't think time under the 189 is wasted at all - at least you're learning to deal with the increase in speed (over the 240) which you'll have to deal with again when you jump the 170. Also, the experience you gain under the 189 does not suddenly become void when you jump something else - the more you fly that canopy the better you'll become and the better you are at flying it the easier you'll find it to fly other canopies.

Quote

Also, the harness the 189 is in is a little big on me, and I can reach the toggles but it does take (a little more) effort...



When you're coming in to land are your arms definately all the way up? It's quite common to see people unknowingly fly their canopies in a little brakes and doing so will reduce the effectiveness of the flare. Can you get someone to video a couple of your landings?

Gus
OutpatientsOnline.com

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"my landings under the 240 were pretty bad (stood up 3 out of 30!)"

If your landings were bad on the 240, why are you downsizing from that? Shouldn't you be getting things right regularly on that canopy before you start going down the sizes?

I fully understand the desire to get off the bigger canopies and onto your own asap... been there myself last summer but I am now glad that my instructors kept me on the larger ones until they judged me to be ready for the next step down, even if it was (very) frustrating at the time.
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Official 100 jump wonder

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I would have to agree here. If you cant land a 240, I would not be in any hurry to downsize. You should be able to land that school bus with no problem before moving to an Acura:P. The smaller canopy will be much less forgiving on the landing than the big one. It could be the difference between a mark on your jump suit and a broken ankle. I would get some video of your landings and take a canopy control class before moving down.
Oz

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The only exception to this way of thinking is if you have been jumping in relatively high winds, and therefore flaring means you end up flying backwards. I've been there, and it ain't fun.

Either way, get some more qualified opinions than ours, and always be ready to PLF. It don't look cool, but neither is waving from the ambulance (or not waving, for that matter).

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

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Have to agree with everyone else here.. obviously discuss with an instructor etc. everything you have been told here, but if you are having problems on the 240 then get that sorted first.

I took a canopy control course and found that really useful since it allows you to understand what happens when you come in to land. Also discuss with your instructor the benefit of doing some practice flares at a safe height when you are under canopy to see just how far you can bring down the toggles and how the canopy behaves when you do.

be good out there :P

Adam.

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No offense intended to anyone who posted, but the majority of the replies have little more experience than I do. I was hoping for some answers from people who specifically knew the flying characteristics of the 2 canopies mentioned.

To answer some questions - my instructors are happy for me to downsize (even to the 170) and I am confident in it also. The student canopies are old, and because of my wingloading I have more trouble flaring them, and was told by a few instructors that I might find it easier to flare a smaller canopy - so that's what I've done.

Also, I do practice flares on every jump I do, simply because I know my landings are not the best, and I like to feel where the canopy stops before doing it in an actual landing.

As for not actually being in full drive when i come in to land, this is a possibility. Unfortunately I have to jump it again to find out for sure though.

Is there anyone who can answer my questions who's had personal experience with both canopies?
www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

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I would have to agree here. If you cant land a 240, I would not be in any hurry to downsize.


But I would not agree. Flaring a 240 is really tough job. At that small wingloading student may not have enough flare power to do the perfect landing. If downsizing to 170 put her ~1.0 W/L, it's OK unless her instructor tells her it's not.
Downsizing from 0.7 to 0.9 w/l will not increase speed dramatically. Just a bit...

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>Flaring a 240 is really tough job.

It's all in what you are used to. If you are trained on Mantas, landing a 240 is far easier than landing a 170. If all you've done for the past 1000 jumps is to land a 2:1 Velocity, then the Manta will be tough to land - but most new jumpers are not in that position.

>At that small wingloading student may not have enough flare power
> to do the perfect landing.

All modern, well-maintained canopies have enough flare power to do a good landing. I have landed 520 square foot canopies by myself (solo jump under a tandem main) - I could land it just fine.

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I was hoping for some answers from people who specifically knew the flying characteristics of the 2 canopies mentioned.



Forgive me but a "PD 170" made with F-111? That sounds like the PD reserve. This would make an unusual main. Is it a 7 cell? Can you tell us a little more about what the canopy is exactly?
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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