exit seperation-newbies don't get pressured..

[bigbearfng 9]

Yes, I'm still kicking myself in the ass for this one.....
As one newbie to other newbies....please don't get pressured by more experienced folk to hurry up and exit-and make the exit seperation minimal!
As a newbie oft times we will be jumping solo, and it just seems that as a solo, you tend to have folk "hurry you up" out the door.
And I've been reluctant to "stand up" to more experienced jumpers; but on this issue I definately will err on the conservative side from now on.....and make sure of what the uppers are....(my fault again there)
I followed a 4way out, and on this load I wasn't "hurried up", but the prior day I'd been jumping I was "hurried up", and still had left plenty of time on that particular day.
Still had it in mind from previously being hurried on this exit-and when I saw a canopy opening close enough to have been from my "own group", so to speak; I thought "shit! what did I do!" Rapidly waved off and opened and immed. turned away.
On later speaking to the other jumper he said he had ended up tracking up the line of flight...however I consider it my fuckup!
I realize the experienced folk may not fully understand how newbies can get pressured into doing something really stupid-so this is mostly for other newbies....
And now a question for the more experienced here-
I can understand the near miss with a plane in incidents now-as far as the first instinct is to pull! In this instance-would you recommend waiting a few to pull (of course granted enough altitude and clear under you)?
Which brings me to another question that this brought to mind...(sorry for the long post several questions-but this has been stirring around in my head!)
Several times I've seen folk stumble shuffling toward the door-if someone were to fall out right after a group;due to aircraft tubulence or a stumble-as a member of the group before the unintentional premature exit-what would you want them to do???
Is there a "standard" of track away from jumprun? Fly up to your group and communicate/show intention to track away so you won't wonder where they went???
Thaks for all input!!(And still kicking myself!)

[RyanofOZ 0]

I was rushed for the first time 2 weeks ago. It was by an instructor of all things that said "were going over 100mph you dont need anywhere near that long" When I asked if they do a 6 second delay between groups on the way to alt. When the group left in front of me I moved to the door and heard hurry up! so I went. I watched that 4 way most of the way down till I tracked off. The whole way down I kept telling myself "well that was stupid" over and over. I know how you feel. I normally wouldnt have done that because I know how my home DZ is. But being the first jump at a new DZ and not being all that comfy yet, I just went with the flow. Lesson learned as well.

Oz

[JeffD 0]

Once your in the door, YOU are in control of what you are doing, if someone rushes you turn around and ask "What?!?...."(like you cant hear them) and by that time you've got your 5 seconds of separation and jump.

[Professor 0]

More people have been hurt or killed by screwing up off DZ landings then by freefall or canopy collisions with people in other groups. Don't stand around in the door. Also, it's your responsibility to know the uppers, the aircraft speed, and to educate yourself about proper exit seperation. And solos don't need as much exit seperation. Your opinion about this may change in a few hundred jumps, when you're exiting late with a freefly 2 or 3 way, or shooting video for a tandem.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Several times I've seen folk stumble shuffling toward the door-if someone were to fall out right after a group;due to aircraft tubulence or a stumble-as a member of the group before the unintentional premature exit-what would you want them to do???
Is there a "standard" of track away from jumprun? Fly up to your group and communicate/show intention to track away so you won't wonder where they went???
Thaks for all input!!(And still kicking myself!)

[Lindsey 0]

This is not an issue I've had to deal with a WHOLE lot, because our planes hold 4-5 jumpers here. HOWEVER....on one occasion while visiting a larger dz, jumpers in the plane started that "trash" as I think of it..... While it's rude to hold up the groups behind you, you must be responsible for your own safety. If you don't believe that you can jump safely due to separation from a group ahead of you, then in my opinion, you shouldn't go until there is adequate separation. I think it's crazy to expect anything else. If I'm in one of the the last groups out, then the same rule would apply. If I believe that the spot has become so bad as to be hazardous to me, then I'll ask the pilot to go around. If he/she gets pissy, then that's another problem in itself. I don't think a pilot's attitude is something I'd allow to compromise my safety on a skydive. If the dzo is behind that attitude, then I don't believe that's a dz I'd like to frequent. Just my $.02....

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Professor 0]

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you must be responsible for your own safety. If you don't believe that you can jump safely due to separation from a group ahead of you, then in my opinion, you shouldn't go until there is adequate separation.

Right. And you must be responsible for not placiing others in an unsafe position. Everyone should take it on themselves to know when is the right time to exit, based on the plane, winds, and group sizes, not on some antiquated rule, or on what 'feels' right. It is certainly possible to leave too little space between you and the group ahead of you, but, I almost never seen that to be the problem. People leaving too much time is much more common.

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If I believe that the spot has become so bad as to be hazardous to me, then I'll ask the pilot to go around. If he/she gets pissy, then that's another problem in itself. I don't think a pilot's attitude is something I'd allow to compromise my safety on a skydive. If the dzo is behind that attitude, then I don't believe that's a dz I'd like to frequent. Just my $.02....

I can't argue with that.


Peace~
linz

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

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More people have been hurt or killed by screwing up off DZ landings then by freefall or canopy collisions with people in other groups. Don't stand around in the door. Also, it's your responsibility to know the uppers, the aircraft speed, and to educate yourself about proper exit seperation. And solos don't need as much exit seperation. Your opinion about this may change in a few hundred jumps, when you're exiting late with a freefly 2 or 3 way, or shooting video for a tandem.

Just because not as many people get killed by this doesn't mean it is not an issue. I have been hit under canopy, by someone in freefall. Fortunately I am still here to talk about it. Exit seperation is more important than worrying about the last groups spot. If you don't like the spot then go around. I have been in a plane where a very high profile skydiver, behind us,was trying to pressure my group into giving 2 seconds seperation. We kindly let his group go in front of ours, as we didn't feel like being used as target practice that day. Don't be pressured. But don't let things get out of hand either, things are better for everyone if only one pass needed

[Professor 0]

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Just because not as many people get killed by this doesn't mean it is not an issue. I have been hit under canopy, by someone in freefall. Fortunately I am still here to talk about it. Exit seperation is more important than worrying about the last groups spot.

And I've landed off, lots of times, because of groups not getting out of the plane fast enough. And I had a friend die during an off landing. Spotting is important, and on DZ landings, with reasonable time to set up, are important. That said, I agree that exit seperation is an issue. proper exit seperation. Waiting an arbitrary amount of time, and ignoring the safety jumpers behind so you can have a warm fuzzy feeling, is crap.

Granted, though, 2 seconds is not enough seperation, in all but the most extreme cases.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[billvon 2,380]

>And I've landed off, lots of times, because of groups not getting out of the plane fast enough.

Why did you get out when the spot was bad? Leaving too little time between groups can mean a midair collision, which is incredibly dangerous. Leaving too much time just means a goaround (or worst case landing with the plane if it happens at Rantoul.) Leaving the correct amount of time is the target, but if you're going to err, it's better to err on the side of too much separation than too little.

[quade 3]

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Granted, though, 2 seconds is not enough seperation, in all but the most extreme cases.

Indeed!

A no-wind jump run at normal Twin Otter speeds requires at least 6.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JohnMitchell 14]

And I've landed off, lots of times, because of groups not getting out of the plane fast enough. And I had a friend die during an off landing. Spotting is important, and on DZ landings, with reasonable time to set up, are important. That said, I agree that exit seperation is an issue. proper exit seperation. Waiting an arbitrary amount of time, and ignoring the safety jumpers behind so you can have a warm fuzzy feeling, is crap.

Granted, though, 2 seconds is not enough seperation, in all but the most extreme cases.

[Luv2Fall 0]

"Go-arounds"

[vonSanta 0]

I give the GOGOGO idiots a three seconds smile, followed by an extra check of the spot if they start their antics on me. 6 months ago, it was different, because I was even greener than I am now and didn't fully understand the math behind exit separation. I definitely agree with your sentiment.

It's harder to do another pass if you've impacted with someone than it is to do the same when the dudes in front of you took too long.

Been taught that every group is responsible for their own spot - don't like it? Go around. If people consistently are taking too long in the door, get some video, show the load organizer.

But I'd be very hesitant to decrease exit separation because some guys in the back don't wanna risk having to ask for another pass. If they want to take greater risks - fine - just don't expose me to 'em.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[crzjp20 0]

just my .02 but i was trained and come from a big DZ with an otter, and on a visit to another i got preasured out the door. Well i told him to hold on and ill be right out.

Well he got to the ground before me and i got ripped by him about to much seperatioon (i gave 6 seconds on an otter) He didnt like it much when the S&TA grounded him for the rest of the day and patted me on the back.

I am still yet to go back to that DZ.

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Lindsey 0]

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...He didnt like it much when the S&TA grounded him for the rest of the day and patted me on the back.

I am still yet to go back to that DZ.

Now THAT is a dz I'd go back to. The S&TA's doing his/her job and looking out for you guys.... There are always gonna be idiot jumpers around, regardless of where you go.

lindsey

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[crzjp20 0]

has nothing to do with the safty of the DZ, i just dont live any where close to it.

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[tattoojeff 0]

well said ted. if your going to protest you better know what your talking about. jumpers dont normaly yell hurry up for no reason. if this guy is getting yelled out alot it sounds like he just takes too long in the door as a whole.

[kelpdiver 2]

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well said ted. if your going to protest you better know what your talking about. jumpers dont normaly yell hurry up for no reason. if this guy is getting yelled out alot it sounds like he just takes too long in the door as a whole.

Counting to 6 isn't that hard. When the people behind you are shouting GO GO GO at 3, not much mystery. They're wrong. They may be presuming we'll take a long time at the door - true for poised, less so for dive outs. Or they may just be jacked up about their own jump.

Somewhat different - on my first few solos people would be looking out for me, but sometimes with side effects. At Davis I'm first out because of the separate landing zones for sub Bs. Initially they were spotting for me and making sure I stayed away from the edge, then suddenly say GO. Would be better to tell me a tad before so I can waddle up, look down for space, suck it up, and go. Now that I'm a bit more familiar at this DZ and a bit more sure, I'm at the door the same time, can go within a second of the green.

[Newbie 0]

separation is extremely important, and working it out can be mindboggling difficult at times, especially if you really get into the numerical side of it, which from limited experience, most don't seem to bother with (in fact everyone i hear says will mostly say"wait until 45 degrees....." (wait until you get into that aspect of it).

It's a fine balance - don't go to soon for obvious reasons, but likewise don't leave it late - there are people behind you who need to get back. Learn about separation to the point where you know what to look for, what to ask for and how to calculate it to the best of your knowledge, as well as asking experienced people/jump master for their thoughts on it (usually they will say leave x amount of secs). Take responsibility to know when to go, so that you don't make it hard for the groups behind to get back, but you don't endanger yourself or the previous jumper(s).

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[bigbearfng 9]

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More people have been hurt or killed by screwing up off DZ landings then by freefall or canopy collisions with people in other groups. Don't stand around in the door. Also, it's your responsibility to know the uppers, the aircraft speed, and to educate yourself about proper exit seperation. And solos don't need as much exit seperation. Your opinion about this may change in a few hundred jumps, when you're exiting late with a freefly 2 or 3 way, or shooting video for a tandem.

Very good point on aircraft speed-on further research, there are one or two pilots (same aircraft) that fly a slower jump run-I really don't know if this was the case on that jump.
As far as "solo's don't need as much exit seperation". I'm afraid that's one of the comments that was echoing around in my head when I screwed up.....Don't worry-I don't camp out in the door! But I would much rather go at ideal exit time plus 2-3 sec. than minus 2-3 sec. So with all due respect, I'll go ahead and exit last, pull high, you go ahead..... Yes I've landed out before; a plf, call me dusty again...So I'll take the go around and let ya'll go ahead of me if need be.....or take the out landing.....because I sure don't want to get anyone else hurt from my screw up! Myself hurt-that's OK, I'll live a lot better with that choice.
As most newbies, I'm more than willing to listen and learn! But again it can be a little frustrating when the old hands expect everyone to be at their level, so please be patient with all the (to you) dumb questions....it's like my "eyeball altimeter"...I keep working on calibrating it...wish I could send it in to the factory for service and calibration!
Thanks again for all responses!

[Lindsey 0]

The other thing that always comes to mind (though I try to be kind enough to not speak it out loud) who are these people hollerin' at you. Are they looking out the door????? I have no idea who the MF's are, and there's no WAY in any hell that I'm gonna listen to them before I listen to my own brain (despite its flaws). There are a lot of jumpers who are real control freaks and really up tight. If someone yelling at me is not my MENTOR, then I have no intention of trusting their anxiety over mine....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[LuvToFly 0]

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The other thing that always comes to mind (though I try to be kind enough to not speak it out loud) who are these people hollerin' at you. Are they looking out the door????? I have no idea who the MF's are, and there's no WAY in any hell that I'm gonna listen to them before I listen to my own brain (despite its flaws). There are a lot of jumpers who are real control freaks and really up tight. If someone yelling at me is not my MENTOR, then I have no intention of trusting their anxiety over mine....

linz

I have found that most times the ones that are bitching for a person to get out the door are the same ones that open at or under 2K.

Not everyone wants to test the envelope. Their convenience is not worth my risk.

I make sure I am out and watching the previous group fall away. It helps me to judge the actual drift, windspeed, etc to know when to jump. And if someone bitches about that judgment, tough crap. It's my life (and also the person's I hit if I drop too early).

To the original poster:
Discourage exit counts, 45 degree rules, etc. WATCH the falling away group. See what their rate is, and make your judgment based on that. Learn to read not only the forecasted winds, but how they play out during the previous jumpers descent.

Just like every landing is different because conditions are never 100% the same each time, you need to use judgment in your exit timings. If you need help with that, seek the counsel of a competent instructor.

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[billvon 2,380]

>Discourage exit counts, 45 degree rules, etc. WATCH the falling away group.

While that's good advice, it will only tell you how close you will be to them during exit - it will NOT tell you how close they will be on opening. A group falling away from an Otter in 10kt uppers looks exactly the same as a group falling away from an Otter in 40kt uppers, but you have to leave more time when the winds are 40 knots.

[Professor 0]

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I have found that most times the ones that are bitching for a person to get out the door are the same ones that open at or under 2K.

No, it's the people who are habitually at the back of the plane, typically freefliers and vidiots. I almost never pull below 3.

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Discourage exit counts, 45 degree rules, etc. WATCH the falling away group.

Huh? Isn't watching the previous group just like using the 45 degree rule? You're judging exit separation by a visual cue. That is wrong. If the uppers match your jump run speed (A/C has no ground speed), you will have no exit separation, no matter how long you wait, but the groups before you will exit and drift back away from the plane, giving the illusion of separation. Ground speed, and an exit count figured based on it, is the correct way to ensure separation.

On another note, I have no problem with 6 seconds of separation out of an Otter, on a no wind jump run. What kills me is watching people watch the group before them exit, shuffle into the door, count slowly to 6, climb out, psych themselves up, look around at each other, get some nods, give a count, and finally exit 12-15 seconds after the group before them. Then the next group does the same thing. Please, if your climb out is going to take 4 seconds, count to 2 and start it.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.