woppit 0 #1 September 29, 2006 my mate who rang me from spain today said ocana are having troubles with aircraft and the air traffic control guys in madrid airport. they were closed the other week because of some sort of problem with their aircraft, not sure what, and they also have been having repeated problems with air traffic control in madrid not letting them climb above 5k ft. apparantly the air traffic lanes have been lowered so that when aircraft, in madrid, have to land on a certain run way have to fly low over ocana as part of their approach, which can be quite often as has been found out especially today. i think i remember reading that the uspa have helped out dzs in the us to fight legal battles and stuff to help dzs keep running, does anyone know if ocana is a uspa dz (they are mainly uspa intructors) and if so can the uspa help with this in anyway? or if not what is the spanish skydiver board like? do they step in with anything like this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #2 September 29, 2006 Quotemy mate who rang me from spain today said ocana are having troubles with aircraft and the air traffic control guys in madrid airport. they were closed the other week because of some sort of problem with their aircraft, not sure what, and they also have been having repeated problems with air traffic control in madrid not letting them climb above 5k ft. apparantly the air traffic lanes have been lowered so that when aircraft, in madrid, have to land on a certain run way have to fly low over ocana as part of their approach, which can be quite often as has been found out especially today. i think i remember reading that the uspa have helped out dzs in the us to fight legal battles and stuff to help dzs keep running, does anyone know if ocana is a uspa dz (they are mainly uspa intructors) and if so can the uspa help with this in anyway? or if not what is the spanish skydiver board like? do they step in with anything like this? Why would they be USPA - THEY'RE IN SPAIN. Talk to the Spanish version of the FAA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #3 September 29, 2006 QuoteWhy would they be USPA - THEY'RE IN SPAIN. Talk to the Spanish version of the FAA. While it would be quite unusual, it might not be impossible. For example, at least one Canadian DZ is a USPA not CSPA affiliated school. (Yet there is a CSPA affiliated club on site, so that they can have people get Canadian ratings etc., so as not to isolate their members.) Still, the USPA may not be all that familiar with local regulations in other countries... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #4 September 29, 2006 QuoteWhy would they be USPA - THEY'RE IN SPAIN. Several non US based DZ are USPA members. That probably wont impress the local authorities tho.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #5 September 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhy would they be USPA - THEY'RE IN SPAIN. Several non US based DZ are USPA members. That probably wont impress the local authorities tho. I stand corrected - partially. I fail to see how the USPA could have any sway with foreign aviation though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eule 0 #6 September 30, 2006 Quotei think i remember reading that the uspa have helped out dzs in the us to fight legal battles and stuff to help dzs keep running, Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. I am a member of USPA but I don't work for USPA in any official capacity. As I understand it, sometimes the USPA just provides moral support (letters or phone calls to officials) and sometimes they will hire a lawyer to assist a DZ in court. On the membership renewal form there is a place to donate money to the "Airport Access Defense Fund", which pays the lawyer food bill. Quotedoes anyone know if ocana is a uspa dz (they are mainly uspa intructors) and if so can the uspa help with this in anyway? My guess is that even if the DZ is USPA, USPA won't be able to help in an "official" way like they can in the US. USPA should, however, be able to provide examples of the procedures at US DZs that operate close to commercial airports, to help show how the commercial traffic can coexist with jumpers. Failing that, it is sort of up to the DZO to work the politicians. One popular approach is "the DZ brings X thousand dollars per year of business to the city". Some of the airport access cases in the US seem to hinge on a principle of equal access to the airspace; if Spanish law has that too, that might be a place to start. I am also under the impression that the EU has some standards for their airspace; it might be worth checking if the EU has any equal-access provisions in their law. Off the top of my head, I've jumped at a DZ that's about 50 nautical miles (90 km) from Dallas/Fort Worth airport, and the DZ coexists with the commercial traffic just fine. Looking at a map, Elsinore appears to be about that same distance from the Los Angeles airport. It appears that Ocana is a little closer to Madrid - something like 30 nm (50 km). Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. I am a member of USPA but I don't work for USPA in any official capacity. EulePLF does not stand for Please Land on Face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #7 September 30, 2006 Hey Michael, dont know if i know you from Hinton or not.... Anyway, you will probably find them being BPA or maybe even owned by a dropzone in the UK. Not sure but there are a couple owned by uk dz's and i thought madrid was one of them. Hope all is cool over at Hinton. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bogwarrior 0 #8 October 2, 2006 Hi Woppit, The three dropzones in Madrid , ourselves 64 Km south of madrid , Lillo ( our competitor in the domestic side of things whom you have reviewed on this site ) 105KM south and Villa de don Fredrique 145Km south.. have had restrictions over the last 2 days. This coincides with the introduction of a new ATC sytem in Madrid last Saturday morning. We have met with ATC and were told that we should not expect this disruption to be a permanent feature. The new airways brought in with the opening of second runway actually favour us as they increase our top altitude by some 6000feet with most traffic moving to the north . The reason for the stop is primarily that as the controllers adjust to the new technology they are avoiding the seven skydiving aircraft in the region making their job more " difficult " . Seems a bit blanket to me , but its their right to do such things ona whim. I recall other dropzones around the country sending us their entire operation for weeks when the same thing happened them.. Over the weekend when the disruption arrived we offered our clients compensation. Today Im pleased to report the controllers having had two days of the new system have cleared us full time to altitude. This morning [ Monday 2nd Oct ] we are on load 8 at appx 1:15 local time and expect to make 25 for the day. Obvisouly were this to become a feature we would accelerate our plans to open our second dropzone. Thankfully it doesnt seem that way , nor has it been that way with so far 300+ AFF graduates in Ocana so far this year. Should any of our clients have any questions in regards to their trip please dont hesitate to contact us. David FFU Client Care http://www.freefalluniversity.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites carrot 0 #9 October 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteHi Woppit, The three dropzones in Madrid , ourselves 64 Km south of madrid , Lillo ( our competitor in the domestic side of things whom you have reviewed on this site ) 105KM south and Villa de don Fredrique 145Km south.. have had restrictions over the last 2 days. Hi there ive been here on AFF and at 2pm everyday for the past 4 days we have been reduced to having to get out at 6k....??? A visiting jumper from leo said they had no problems at their dz?.... Quote This coincides with the introduction of a new ATC sytem in Madrid last Saturday morning. We have met with ATC and were told that we should not expect this disruption to be a permanent feature. They pilot said this would be a permanent problem..??? So what is the real story?? Quote Over the weekend when the disruption arrived we offered our clients compensation. No one here who havent finished their AFF have been offered compensation let alone had any form of communication from the illusive character who runs the AFF school here Quote Today Im pleased to report the controllers having had two days of the new system have cleared us full time to altitude. This morning [ Monday 2nd Oct ] we are on load 10 at appx 1:15 local time Load 8 was about to go up and now on a weather hold local time 2pm. Quote Should any of our clients have any questions in regards to their trip please dont hesitate to contact us. when do i get to meet the person i paid over 1000 euros to? Do they ever come to the dropzone to see what ACTUALLY is going on? David FFU Client Care http://www.freefalluniversity.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lauras 0 #10 October 2, 2006 it's lovely when someone creates a new identity to slam the competition. grow a set, own up to who you are (ashamed, perhaps?) and then your words might have some credence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites carrot 0 #11 October 2, 2006 As i havent graduated aff yet and have to be here for a few more days, i think at this point it may effect how i am treated... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites scabbage 0 #12 October 2, 2006 I was at Ocana last yer and it wasnt too bad, the odd ball that runs the aff school would sometimes interfere with the running of the dz and then this happened things didnt go as planned or run as smoothly. The views are great, the people are friendly and theres a good nightlife in the nearby town but I really did feel it was purely an aff operation. Have you tried speaking to any of the school intstructors about your feelings? Hope it all goes well Grayham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilatus_p 0 #13 October 2, 2006 Laura Im not trying to start a fight here, but Carrot registered in january - I don't think its a recent addition. I can see why you would think that - he hasnt signed the post, and as he said himself, its likley to affect how he's treated. It seems to me he is a student who is at the DZ NOW and is angry at what he perceives as bad treatment - so quite likely to remain anonymous. I can understand why carrot may feel this way. When I was at Ocana, the plane was in for repair. First day we were told one day, then two, then three .. . People were given compensation which sweetened the sting and we ended up jumping at Lillo which is a grand ol place. I still have grit from their landing zone in my teeth During my stay there, two students were annoyed by what they saw as "bad service" and "false claims" as they called it. Their main concerns were the two airplanes claim, and the 'one student to one instructor' claim, which did not happen during my stay (my ins was coaching three or four people at once). I believe they chose not to take any action however. Other students were aware of it, but did not seem to take as much umbrage and instead chose to visit sights in Aranjuez and Madrid whilst we waited on the plane. It is a bit confusing as their website says they have two planes, but I believe they have had trouble with the order coming thru for the last however many months or something so I guess they are reliant on the airplane company for their one Porter which looks pretty sexy. It IS a nice school. The vast majority of students have a great time. The ins's are good to talk to and share a lot of themselves with students, and their enthusiasm is infectious. They are good at helping you overcome sticking points. The place is pretty and warm. There is a pool nearby and the landlord is less grumpy if u try to speak spanish to him. Trade this off against potential admin drawbacks / lost jump days if you choose to jump there. The age old maxim applies - buyer beware. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Another view (not mine): http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2288079;search_string=ocana;#2288079 Ross EDITED for spellinghttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lauras 0 #14 October 2, 2006 Fair enough, I certainly wouldn't want the rest of my holiday bunged up. It's very expensive and I'm sympathetic to that. I'm leery of people who post about their dissatisfaction without stating if they've tried to do anything to rectify the situation. I also think there's a massive disconnect in expectations and reality when it comes to learning how to skydive. I think many students come in expecting things to be as orderly as booking a table at a restaurant and being seated within 10 minutes. Skydiving operations demand flexibility and I don't think that's properly communicated. In the meantime, try to enjoy the rest of your training. You'll be soon ready to jump at any number of dzs and find the ones that suit you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RandomLemming 0 #15 October 3, 2006 Quote *** Over the weekend when the disruption arrived we offered our clients compensation. No one here who havent finished their AFF have been offered compensation let alone had any form of communication from the illusive character who runs the AFF school here This conflicts somewhat. Would FFU care to update / clarify this statement ? Was full compensation freely offered? Was compensation only given after it being requested? Were all students affected who could not stay beyond the weekend refunded? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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bigway 4 #7 September 30, 2006 Hey Michael, dont know if i know you from Hinton or not.... Anyway, you will probably find them being BPA or maybe even owned by a dropzone in the UK. Not sure but there are a couple owned by uk dz's and i thought madrid was one of them. Hope all is cool over at Hinton. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bogwarrior 0 #8 October 2, 2006 Hi Woppit, The three dropzones in Madrid , ourselves 64 Km south of madrid , Lillo ( our competitor in the domestic side of things whom you have reviewed on this site ) 105KM south and Villa de don Fredrique 145Km south.. have had restrictions over the last 2 days. This coincides with the introduction of a new ATC sytem in Madrid last Saturday morning. We have met with ATC and were told that we should not expect this disruption to be a permanent feature. The new airways brought in with the opening of second runway actually favour us as they increase our top altitude by some 6000feet with most traffic moving to the north . The reason for the stop is primarily that as the controllers adjust to the new technology they are avoiding the seven skydiving aircraft in the region making their job more " difficult " . Seems a bit blanket to me , but its their right to do such things ona whim. I recall other dropzones around the country sending us their entire operation for weeks when the same thing happened them.. Over the weekend when the disruption arrived we offered our clients compensation. Today Im pleased to report the controllers having had two days of the new system have cleared us full time to altitude. This morning [ Monday 2nd Oct ] we are on load 8 at appx 1:15 local time and expect to make 25 for the day. Obvisouly were this to become a feature we would accelerate our plans to open our second dropzone. Thankfully it doesnt seem that way , nor has it been that way with so far 300+ AFF graduates in Ocana so far this year. Should any of our clients have any questions in regards to their trip please dont hesitate to contact us. David FFU Client Care http://www.freefalluniversity.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carrot 0 #9 October 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteHi Woppit, The three dropzones in Madrid , ourselves 64 Km south of madrid , Lillo ( our competitor in the domestic side of things whom you have reviewed on this site ) 105KM south and Villa de don Fredrique 145Km south.. have had restrictions over the last 2 days. Hi there ive been here on AFF and at 2pm everyday for the past 4 days we have been reduced to having to get out at 6k....??? A visiting jumper from leo said they had no problems at their dz?.... Quote This coincides with the introduction of a new ATC sytem in Madrid last Saturday morning. We have met with ATC and were told that we should not expect this disruption to be a permanent feature. They pilot said this would be a permanent problem..??? So what is the real story?? Quote Over the weekend when the disruption arrived we offered our clients compensation. No one here who havent finished their AFF have been offered compensation let alone had any form of communication from the illusive character who runs the AFF school here Quote Today Im pleased to report the controllers having had two days of the new system have cleared us full time to altitude. This morning [ Monday 2nd Oct ] we are on load 10 at appx 1:15 local time Load 8 was about to go up and now on a weather hold local time 2pm. Quote Should any of our clients have any questions in regards to their trip please dont hesitate to contact us. when do i get to meet the person i paid over 1000 euros to? Do they ever come to the dropzone to see what ACTUALLY is going on? David FFU Client Care http://www.freefalluniversity.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauras 0 #10 October 2, 2006 it's lovely when someone creates a new identity to slam the competition. grow a set, own up to who you are (ashamed, perhaps?) and then your words might have some credence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carrot 0 #11 October 2, 2006 As i havent graduated aff yet and have to be here for a few more days, i think at this point it may effect how i am treated... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scabbage 0 #12 October 2, 2006 I was at Ocana last yer and it wasnt too bad, the odd ball that runs the aff school would sometimes interfere with the running of the dz and then this happened things didnt go as planned or run as smoothly. The views are great, the people are friendly and theres a good nightlife in the nearby town but I really did feel it was purely an aff operation. Have you tried speaking to any of the school intstructors about your feelings? Hope it all goes well Grayham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilatus_p 0 #13 October 2, 2006 Laura Im not trying to start a fight here, but Carrot registered in january - I don't think its a recent addition. I can see why you would think that - he hasnt signed the post, and as he said himself, its likley to affect how he's treated. It seems to me he is a student who is at the DZ NOW and is angry at what he perceives as bad treatment - so quite likely to remain anonymous. I can understand why carrot may feel this way. When I was at Ocana, the plane was in for repair. First day we were told one day, then two, then three .. . People were given compensation which sweetened the sting and we ended up jumping at Lillo which is a grand ol place. I still have grit from their landing zone in my teeth During my stay there, two students were annoyed by what they saw as "bad service" and "false claims" as they called it. Their main concerns were the two airplanes claim, and the 'one student to one instructor' claim, which did not happen during my stay (my ins was coaching three or four people at once). I believe they chose not to take any action however. Other students were aware of it, but did not seem to take as much umbrage and instead chose to visit sights in Aranjuez and Madrid whilst we waited on the plane. It is a bit confusing as their website says they have two planes, but I believe they have had trouble with the order coming thru for the last however many months or something so I guess they are reliant on the airplane company for their one Porter which looks pretty sexy. It IS a nice school. The vast majority of students have a great time. The ins's are good to talk to and share a lot of themselves with students, and their enthusiasm is infectious. They are good at helping you overcome sticking points. The place is pretty and warm. There is a pool nearby and the landlord is less grumpy if u try to speak spanish to him. Trade this off against potential admin drawbacks / lost jump days if you choose to jump there. The age old maxim applies - buyer beware. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Another view (not mine): http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2288079;search_string=ocana;#2288079 Ross EDITED for spellinghttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauras 0 #14 October 2, 2006 Fair enough, I certainly wouldn't want the rest of my holiday bunged up. It's very expensive and I'm sympathetic to that. I'm leery of people who post about their dissatisfaction without stating if they've tried to do anything to rectify the situation. I also think there's a massive disconnect in expectations and reality when it comes to learning how to skydive. I think many students come in expecting things to be as orderly as booking a table at a restaurant and being seated within 10 minutes. Skydiving operations demand flexibility and I don't think that's properly communicated. In the meantime, try to enjoy the rest of your training. You'll be soon ready to jump at any number of dzs and find the ones that suit you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #15 October 3, 2006 Quote *** Over the weekend when the disruption arrived we offered our clients compensation. No one here who havent finished their AFF have been offered compensation let alone had any form of communication from the illusive character who runs the AFF school here This conflicts somewhat. Would FFU care to update / clarify this statement ? Was full compensation freely offered? Was compensation only given after it being requested? Were all students affected who could not stay beyond the weekend refunded? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
