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skrovi

Drop in the number of Skydivers

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I guess if you consider strapping yourself to someone and leaving an aircraft in flight with very little skill or control of the situation makes you a skydiver, then your criteria are vastly different than my own. It is one thing to say you have made a tandem skydive,but to consider yourself a skydiver after one tandem is a joke. A tandem skydive is a huge step down the path to becoming a skydiver and my hat is off to anyone who takes this first step. But there are a few more steps to take before becoming a skydiver. A skydiver in my opinion, is someone who attempts to take some conscious control over the skydive using their learned skills and experience. In other words, if you come back to learn how to skydive, then I would say you are a skydiver.

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Yep, you have a very good point, but i still feel the same way. I also totally agree that relitivly speaking, i am a complete noob in this sport, but i would like to think that i recognise myself as one, as opposed to seeing myself as the next gods gift to skydiving. In addition, i plan to stay in this for the long run, so i guess i do see my self differently to some guy who turns up, does one tandem in his life and brags about it to his friends for years to come.
P.S-I know it doesn't make jack difference to an experienced jumper, but i hadn't updated my profile. Actually have 35 jumps now (by end of sat. over 40 :)

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they aren't an active skydiver, but anyone who leaves a plane and relies on 5-10lbs of nylon to save them meets the criteria.

While you have 25 times as many jumps, there are no shortage of people who would place a higher bar before you'd be allowed to call yourself a skydiver as well. And it's just as silly, just as elitist.



Do you consider someone who made one SCUBA dive with little to no training, say a resort dive, as a SCUBA diver? Or a guy that took one flight lesson as a Pilot?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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What does it matter if someone who has done a tandem wants to call themselves a skydiver?

The people calling themselves skydivers after doing a tandem are advertising. This can lead to more people doing tandems (which increases the revenue of the DZ). Also, some of those people doing tandems may continue skydiving.

Why don't we just create a new term that seperates these people.

Skydiver: People who jump from an aircraft.

Skyflyer: People who (spend money, time, and effort to) jump from an aircraft and fly their body.

Now when you say that you skyfly and someone says that they skydive you can tell them what the difference is. Problem solved.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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What does it matter if someone who has done a tandem wants to call themselves a skydiver?

The people calling themselves skydivers after doing a tandem are advertising. This can lead to more people doing tandems (which increases the revenue of the DZ). Also, some of those people doing tandems may continue skydiving.



thanks, Butters.

I hope those something-other-than-skydivers shoot their mouth off as much as possible. They're not the problem, if one exists. They're the ones that pay for the turbines. If there is a problem, it's with DZs that view them as $200 pieces of cargo and little more.

You can make a lot of definitions of what makes a skydiver, and for you they'd be true. Could be the A license. Could be the D. Could be the first solo freefall. None of them are superior to the literal definition.

-------
Ron, personally, if someone goes out into true open water and plays with the fishies, they dived. And are very inexperienced divers. It's not quite the same risk one undertakes as a tandem jumper, but it's not nearly as safe as many think as well. OTOH, if they just did a pool session, no, I don't really see that as counting.

Based on the sort of Discover Diving practices I've seen at Cozumel, some of these one day wonders have done pretty serious diving for having no experience. And it looked far riskier than a tandem jump.

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So would you call someone who has done 1 or 2 dives sometime on holiday a 'diver', no. (and i doubt they would either), they have done a dive, they are not a diver. In the same way, tandems students have done a skydive, they are not a skydiver (IMHO). If you are taken round a race track by a racing driver, are you a racing driver? My very first skydive was a tandem, i turned up to the DZ, did my jump, no one really said much to me (and i did not expect them to either, although i did make an effort) and i went home. The reason i did it was to confirm to myself that it was worth the money to do aff. I saw it as an experience, nothing more. I do not see that as the start of me skydiving, i see my aff level 1 as that.
Now just to confirm i have NOTHING against tandem students. I encourage my friends to give it a go, and i recommend it to anyone, both simply for the fun of it, and also for a way to confirm to yourself that it fits you (like i did myself) someone is thinking of getting into it, and i agree that the DZ would not operate without them.

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So would you call someone who has done 1 or 2 dives sometime on holiday a 'diver', no.



actually, this definition (I often use the term 'resort diver' or 'warm water wimps') covers a significant portion of the US diving population. They dive every 1-3 years on holilday.

Sadly, unlike the tandem skydiver, these sort of customers are a negative, not a boon. They do more than their share of reef damage, and they encourage nanny behavior in dive operators.

Now if you ask me how many skydivers we have in the US, I will say it's only around 20 or 25,000. (I presume that a good number of the 30k in the USPA are retired lifetime). I like the phrase 'active skydivers.'

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You are not going to change the thoughts of the general public because they do not care to differentiate (in fact many want to consider themselves skydivers after a tandem).

Once again, those that skydive know who are skydivers and that should be enough.

A question, does it make you to say you are a skydiver and you don't want other people (tandem passengers) to be able to claim they are also? :P
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Why don't we just create a new term that seperates these people.



Not needed.

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What does it matter if someone who has done a tandem wants to call themselves a skydiver?



Not a thing. However, the way I see it the day I quit jumping, I am no longer be a "skydiver" either. It would be something *I did*, not something *I am*. People who want to label themselves as anything are fine to do so...But that does not mean *I* have to agree.


Kelp:
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actually, this definition (I often use the term 'resort diver' or 'warm water wimps') covers a significant portion of the US diving population. They dive every 1-3 years on holilday.



And we often call Tandem jumpers "Cargo." I don't tend to call myself a "skydiver"....Skydiving is something I do, not something I am. But, I would not belittle all those that took the class and did a jump by themselves by calling anyone that was just cargo for one jump years ago, and call them the same.

The difference IMO is if you are going to do it again...If not, then it was just something you did.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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"I have skydived"=implies "I have done this in the past." Maybe once, maybe one thousand times...

"I am a skydiver."="I am currently engaged in the sport of skydiving." Maybe once a day, once a week, once a month...Anything less than once a month would suggest the person is not current, and therefore not actively engaged in the sport.

This all takes away from the original point regarding the drop in numbers.
Personally, I think it boils down to two primary factors:
Cost/difficulty of achieving a recreational access to the sport.

Attitude on the part of current, existing skydivers.

I can't begin to comment on how many times I've been to various DZs and felt out of place, in spite of trying to make conversation. Two DZ's in my short history as a skydiver, neither manifest nor the DZO bothered to offer so much as a "good morning" or even bother to look at me. They looked at my license, and little to nothing more.
Conversely, on our local DZ, not only do you get a welcome, but the DZO or manifest person makes an effort to try to introduce newcomers to a few key people on the DZ. If they're students, they're usually offered the packing area floor to talk to more experienced folks until their AFF instructor is available.

If we want new skydivers in the biz, we've got to reach out and embrace them, and do so without attitudes, IMO. Hell, I've only been active in the sport for a little over a year; what do I know?
I doknow what it feels like to be new on a DZ as both a student and as a regular.

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i to am new to the sport started jumping 6 months ago. IMO addvertising the sport would do a lot of good before i started i had never seen an advertisment for skydiving and now that im in the sport its only advertised in the skydiving circle. with all the competition for peoples time and money in todays markets if you dont actively throw it out in peoples faces they will countinue on oblivios to its existence and accsesability, before my first tandem i didnt even know that i lived as close to sda as i do
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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Good point.

The tandem mill that I did AFF and a bunch of my first 50 jumps at actually had a billboard on US-101 with their ph# for a while. I'm pretty sure it helped business.




Its a shame most smaller dropzones can't afford to pay for billboards.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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..."I am a skydiver."="I am currently engaged in the sport of skydiving." Maybe once a day, once a week, once a month...Anything less than once a month would suggest the person is not current, and therefore not actively engaged in the sport...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Careful here. I've been "actively engaged" in the sport for years, even if only to look at the sky on sunny weekends and anticipate my next opportunity to visit the DZ. Some of us may allow a few weeks/months to go between jumps, but it doesn't necessarily mean we are not "current" according to our personal skill set.

(Then again, the use of the word "current" is not unreasonable, but it does not mean that one is not capable of jumping safely.)

I have returned after several months off and gone last on a six-way with no evidence of my recent absence. Likewise, even with only a few jumps per year I can routinely land real close to a target.

Let's resist the temptation to assume that people who jump less often than (fill in your personal standard here) need to be watched very carefully.

Cheers,
Jon S.

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Good point.

The tandem mill that I did AFF and a bunch of my first 50 jumps at actually had a billboard on US-101 with their ph# for a while. I'm pretty sure it helped business.




Its a shame most smaller dropzones can't afford to pay for billboards.



To be more specific, I think it was actually a shared billboard. IIRC, it was divided into thirds and the DZ had a one of the three sections.

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I am relatively new to this sport (little over 1 year) and would at 115 jumps definitley be considered a newbie. My wife and I both took up the sport at the same time, and are in to it for over $15,000 so far. That includes AFF, gear for both of us, and jumps to date. I would have to say, at my level, I would never consider coaching someone. I also would never pay someone to jump with me as a coach. I guess i'm fortunate that at my home DZ, there are plenty of people out every weekend, of all skill levels, jumping together. I have never had a prolem finding someone to jump with. We are a smaller DZ compared to the bigger full time operations, but we probably survive based on the tandems. Overall I'd have to say we would classify as a "friendlier" dz. And let's face it, no one's really getting rich in this sport.

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Good point.

The tandem mill that I did AFF and a bunch of my first 50 jumps at actually had a billboard on US-101 with their ph# for a while. I'm pretty sure it helped business.




Its a shame most smaller dropzones can't afford to pay for billboards.

most smaller dz probably cant afford a billboard but if the uspa was to do some advertising just on the radio or tv it would definitly have some effect and from thier web site its pretty easy to find the dz closest. even a small advertisment in some of the more popular sporting mag or travel guides
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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..."
Let's resist the temptation to assume that people who jump less often than (fill in your personal standard here) need to be watched very carefully.

Cheers,
Jon S.



no one suggested that people who jump more or less often are more or less capable. There is a standard set forth by the USPA as to what is current and what is not. While some may apparently relegate that definition as to to is and who is not in need of "being watched," that in no way was part of my commentary. However, people who jump "less often" and are not in compliance with currency standards, may indeed "need to be watched more carefully" in some instances, even if that isn't true for yourself. I know that if I'm away from my daily regimen of work for any long period of time, I don't have the same fluid workflow that I might have had 3-4 months previously. If you don't suffer from that loss of proficiency, I'd say that's quite commendable. Congrats.;)

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i think the dzo's forget that the experienced jumpers do drop a lot of money - maybe not as profitable as a tandem but i know i drop a couple thousand each year at my dz and have also brought in over 50 tandems in 13 years - they need to remember that these tandems went with me and every experienced jumper will bring in tandems. i think that a dzo should treat the customers weather new or old better and should always find time to talk to any customer

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I could give a rat's ass if a 1-shot tandem guy called himself a skydiver. Let him talk...and brag. It will bring in more business and in the long run more active skydivers.

Sometimes I wonder if those who object think are being deprived of "being special".:S
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I am a person who is avidly interested in skydiving, has 2 tandem jumps to his credit and was seriously considering AFF. As explained, I am not expert, novice or anyone with considerable skills in skydiving. All that I have to my credit is that I had the guts to jump out of a plane twice and would love to do it many more times. But I am not going to pursue this dream for the following reasons

1. Safety - This is my primary concern. I am a loner in this country, I dont have family or close friends who will take care of me if I were to get injured in this sport. I dont fear getting killed atleast that way there is no hassle to me or to anyone else - its done. But I read so many of these "injury" cases with paralysis, fused spines, cracked hips etc. I shudder to think I would be left in a dependent state if something were to go wrong. This sport still needs something innovative to increase the safety margin - I dont know what it is but it has to come from within the community or military and should improve the safety of this sport whether it be hard landings, hard openings, canopy failure etc.

2. Family Backlash - My family though not residing with me, is vehemently opposing this move of mine. They were ok with the 1 tandem ride concerned about the second and virulently opposed to the AFF. I am not the person who will make 4 people unhappy just to make myself happy. I think if the safety of this sport were to increase there would be less backlash from my family

3. Money - This is the last of my concerns and not really a concern but I put it in here to elaborate the link between money and safety. I'm not sure any amount I spend can bring me the assurance of safety in this sport. In many other sports (which are otherwise considered to be dangerous e.g. car racing) you can throw a huge pile of money at safety equipment and buy yourself a good margin for error albeit not a total assurance. I would think that is not quite applicable in skydiving.

Now, some of you here may disagree completely with me and argue that the thrill of this sport is in the risk. But I remember someone quoting on this forum "I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the sky, than be in the sky wishing I was on the ground". I will be calling my DZ and cancelling my AFP transition class tomorrow. I will however ardently follow this sport and the enhancements in safety until I reach a stage in my life where I just dont care about it anymore or I feel confident enough to re-enter the sport.

Thank You

P.S - From this forum, I have recieved so much knowledge and education, I cant thank you all enough. Please continue to share, it helps even wannabes like me make the choice appropriate for us:)

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I have all the same concerns, however...

There is a story I heard where a woman dies eating a marshmallow at a Garden Fete..
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060915.wmarshmallow0915/BNStory/National/home

The point? I think when your time is up - there aint nothing you can do about it.

You might as well follow your dreams. In skydiving, the benefits well outweigh the danger.
Chris

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The sport is far safer than the accident reports are leading you and your family to believe.

Take out jumps that involve no student training at all and then you'll see things are far better. Most (not all, but most) injuries and deaths involved EXPERIENCED jumpers who made a tragic (in some cases) mistake.

Safety is an excuse that many use to sway their position. Affordablity on the other hand is hard to ignore, if the price is out of reach and a means of funding is unavailable, it is hard to pursue any sport or hobby.

If you want to jump and have the funds the only reason not to, is you the individual who has the right to decide for himself.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Heres another quote for ya

"I believe that the risks I take are justified by the sheer love of the life I lead."

Yea you can die but you can die getting out of bead in the morning or going to the bathroom

A few years in EMS has taught me that going to the bathroom may actually be the most dangerous thing anyone can do. :S[:/]


But i feel ya on the Family issue mine is the same way.
As a general rule, the better it felt when you said it, the more trouble it's going to get you into.

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"I think if the safety of this sport were to increase there would be less backlash from my family "
_____________________________________________

You and your family should read 100 Most Dangerous Things in Everyday Life and What You Can Do About Them

"We worry about being assaulted in the streets but not about being injured in the kitchen (where, in America, for example, 1 million people are seriously hurt each year), the living room (where 400,000 are injured annually) or the bathroom (site of more than 150,000 serious accidents each year)."

In the words of Helen Keller, "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."

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