kelpdiver 2 #76 July 19, 2006 the first jump takes a lot more courage than the 1000th, esp for the SLiner or the AFF1 student. Maybe I can see the disdain for the tandems, but it still reeks of elitism. I'm sure the sport will always be healthy enough in California, so I personally don't worry too much about the mainstreaming or failure to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,051 #77 July 19, 2006 QuoteAt least now you don't have 100 jump people actually dispatching new jumpers on an IAD or SL jump like you did just a few years ago. At the time the criteria for the SL/IAD course was developed, it was 100 jumps + at least 3 years in the sport.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dolph 0 #78 July 19, 2006 I am not sure I agree it is elitism - to me it is an example of a natural, healthy general form of human social interaction. There just is no comparison between a one time jumper who has basically no idea about what the sport is about, the full reality of the physical and emotional risks and the dedication and sacrifices necessary to be good at skydiving and someone who has a lot of years and jumps. I would not call someone fresh out of driving school a 'F1 race driver". Sure, the person could probably with a little instruction drive an F1 car around a track. He or she would not have the experience, the skill, the dedication of a Schumacher though. Nor would he or she appreciate to the same degree the true dangers of the sport or have lived through and learned from dumb mistakes. I believe it is proper to attribute to someone what he or she is due. Similarily, it'd be wrong to attribute to someone something he or she is not due. Even if it is un-PC and may sound elitist. Respect is earned, not given. Once this AFF1 or S/L student has proven to be worthy of more respect than a one-jump-bragging-rights jump gives, he or she will have earned it. I'm talking respect with regards to the sport, not personal respect, just to clarify. Maybe I'm just old school but to me a typical newbie and a typical old timer are not equals wrt. respect earned. And I'm a relative n00b myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #79 July 19, 2006 Quote For those that willingly make it their single sport (that doesn't seem to be you), their skills should develop much more quickly. But many would see that sort of dedication closer to work than fun. And quite a drain on the wallet. Thanks for your synopsis . . . but like I said before, you get what you put in . . . that's it. You want to jump once a month, good for you. You want to jump 10 times a week because you can afford it, good for you. DO WHAT YOU WANT. I don't understand where you draw this connection with jumping too much making it seem like work ??? I do work at my dropzone and it doesn't even feel like work. I put in 12 hour days almost every Saturday and Sunday, and it still feels like a weekend to me and time off from my day job. I love being at the dropzone and being there more often has really paid off for me. To each their own . . .You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #80 July 19, 2006 QuoteWe need a sequel to "point break" to boost the numbers, remember what It did for the numbers back in the early 90s ?,.........................just kidding. I bet it's all those damn head-down fliers having something to do with it. Took the words right out of my mouth. Skydiving needs mass positive exposure to kick start it for momentum. How else will anyone recognize it as a passionate thing to be doing. But gas is probably affecting a lot of this. How much is it for AFF/AFP nowadays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #81 July 19, 2006 >>I put in 12 hour days almost every Saturday and Sunday, and it still feels like a weekend to me and time off from my day job. I love being at the dropzone and being there more often has really paid off for me. To each their own . . . << LOL, the innocence of youth – Okay, wait twenty years and see how you feel. The sport "uses" folks like you, the part time Instructors, who get paid peanuts until you burn out - then another "new" Instructor takes over until he burns out - and this is why the Instructor Corps is top heavy with inexperienced Instructors when it should be the other way around. Instead of a DZ having one old hand and several new ones – it should have several old hands and one or two new ones. That way some lessons and skills would be passed on. As it is now we are getting dangerously close to re-inventing the wheel every time there's a turn over in Instructors. I'm not blaming you, as I was just like you, and I know you don’t see it yet. But, it's the newly minted part timer who's happy with just teaching the sport for no security or real pay that allows DZOs a practically free hand to arbitrarily hire and fire Instructors, pay them a low wage, and then run those Instructors into the ground. I've been in plenty of meetings with other AFF Instructors lamenting the short comings of the DZOs we work for . . . I'd imagine there are also meetings of DZOs who are planning for the day we Instructors finally wake up. I had a sit down conversation with one very large So Cal DZO about the fact he employed several very experienced high time Instructors that have basically nothing to show for it. Why is that? When this DZO orders a part from Pratt & Whitney for a turbine engine he doesn't get it at a cut rate price because it's being used at a DZ. When he buys food and drink for the restaurant it's not discounted because jumpers are consuming it. When this DZO needs new student gear he still pays nearly full boat for it – there's no huge price break because students are utilizing it. So why, oh why, are we Instructors giving it away? This DZO smiled but answered my question. His reply was both sad and true at the same time; "You guys [Instructors] are knuckleheads, and a dime a dozen, and you always will be . . . !" NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #82 July 19, 2006 Nick . . . I respect what you are saying 100%, but there is a small misunderstanding. I work at my DZ as a packer, not an instructor or coach. I apologize for not clarifying that. I fully understand what you are saying because I had the opportunity to take the JM course by now if I really wanted to. I chose to wait until at least next year. I don't feel comfortable dumping S/L students out of a plane while I'm still wet behind the ears myself. Your point falls right in line with this whole thread. There are tons of experienced skydivers out there that could be helping newbies out and contributing to an increase in the number of skydivers, but they are unappreciated and underpaid for their time so they go into the areas where there is less stress or easier money. I don't plan on contributing to that at all. It's another one of the benefits of spending a lot of time at the DZ . You get to hear what pisses off all of the experienced skydivers and you learn to avoid it because you know that one day, it will be you who will be pissed off. "IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED . . . SKYDIVING IS NOT FOR YOU . . . "You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #83 July 19, 2006 Yes, I sort of went off on a tangent there . . . Sorry. Yet, it brings up another point. Every JCC I've ever taught in (and I know we don't hold Jumpmaster Certification Classes anymore) has been full of bright eyed, eager, and mainly newly minted C-license holders. I think, back then, you needed five candidates to make it a legal JCC. Out of that five one might actually start on the road to becoming an Instructor, three are there because they are starved for any kind of structured "after student" instruction, and the last is dipping his toes in - but he'll bail out after learning about the responsibility involved. You might be the one in five – So I don’t want to discourage you. You can't teach forty year-olds to be Instructors. By the time they get good at it - they've already had one heart attack . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #84 July 19, 2006 you must have 10 (or 20) pack jobs for every jump if two years of nearly every weekend got you 76 jumps. That would definitely be work to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eule 0 #85 July 20, 2006 Does anyone have numbers for USPA membership before 1991? I can get numbers back to 1991 from Dan Poynter's site and the USPA annual membership survey results, but I haven't found anything older than that. I want to plot these numbers against total US population, some finanical indicators, etc, and see if I see anything interesting. EulePLF does not stand for Please Land on Face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #86 July 20, 2006 I predicted many years ago that numbers of sport jumpers would decline, as a result of changes in training methods....and so it has proved... The advent of AFF is the main reason I feel.... It is more expensive, and its harder to sell than SL as a result of cost, and the "fear" factor... Static line jumps were easier to sell to large groups because it was sold as a "parachute jump". Potential recruits could get their head around that concept a lot easier than making a freefall or skydive, as in AFF.....for a first jumper the psychological aspects (differences) between the two methods are enormous.... I used to get groups of 30 or 40 for a weekend ofstatic line jumps and get them all out, with just myself and one helper.....big groups of friends would show up...some would do 3 or 4 jumps....it was easy to turn them around once jumping started about mid day Saturday... The AFF guys by contrast would take all weekend with 2 or 3 first jumpers......and spend most of that time training......with 2 instructors per student....much more complicated training than SL. Simple Maths....more first jumpers, more would stick around.... I think Tandem hasn't really affected numbers much, perhaps has encouraged a few who would never have tried. I remember espousing my theory about the future decline in numbers, and why, back in the early nineties....and the reaction I got was to be laughed at.....the concensus amongst the mainly new hotshot jumpers on the scene was that Static line was dead, and that AFF was the way of the future.... I also think the advent of professional skydiving has meant that the experienced jumpers have been too busy working at the DZ, and the interaction between older jumpers and newbies is much less than it used to be, and that has led to less retention..... Plus, as has been pointed out, many of the skydivers who have spent the best part of their lives on DZ's making it happen are/have retired and have other fish to fry..... But hey, what do I know????......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #87 July 20, 2006 That's unfortunate Kelp . . . I believe in paying your dues in this sport. If I spend the first few years of skydiving by packing different types of parachutes and learning about each of them, I think it will only help me to become a better jumper. For the record, I've been involved in the sport for 2 years now, but I only started my first jump course last July. I get my jumps in at a comfortable pace, no complaints here. Skydiving is not all about being in the air, that's only half of it. My ground time at the DZ is equally as important to me.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propilot 0 #88 July 20, 2006 Ive been skydiving for about 3 years. I came very very close to quitting after my first year. By that time, I had invested in a brand new rig, AFF, and other expensive goodies. Well over 5 grand. Why did I feel like quitting? Because jumping alone sucks. At the DZ I started at, after you were off AFF (what, like 8 jumps or something?) you were on your own. Cant jump with anyone unless its a coach..want a coach? 50 bucks please. OK, so I jumped alone till 20 jumps. now what...anyone want to jump? nope, too busy doing jumps with people who know what they are doing. Im glad I stuck it out, but a lot of dzs are like the above...and people wonder why people quit? Other sports are much better to new people...take motocross for example. I started on my own, bought a bike and went to the track. I didnt know anyone...did I ride alone all day? Hell no, right when I pulled up people introduced theemsleves and offered to show me around the track, show me how to turn, bla bla... basicaly coached me all day. At the end of the day, I felt like coming back. Im sure $ has something to do with it too...expensive to live right now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #89 July 20, 2006 That sucks . . . my DZ is not like that. Well not to a point. Experienced jumpers are always going to want to jump with other experienced jumpers because, after all, they pay for a jump, they want to get the most out of it. I hear what you are saying loud and clear, and it really is a major contributor to the lack of new jumpers who stay with it long enough to get proficient to jump with others and start having some real fun. On the other hand, there's always bandit jumps (not that I would know anything about that personally)You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #90 July 20, 2006 QuoteExperienced jumpers are always going to want to jump with other experienced jumpers because, after all, they pay for a jump, they want to get the most out of it. That's bullshit at a lot of DZs and at most that I've been to (and I've been to 17 so far). I'm not *that* experienced myself but I love to jump with new jumpers. I have been fortunate to have jumped with many, many jumpers with hundreds and thousands of jumps who have happily and willingly jumped with me and other jumpers of lower experience levels and who have asked nothing of me but to smile and have fun on the jump. I had to get over the idea that with my limited skills I was going to "ruin" a jump for a more experienced person. How did I do this? I said yes when people asked me to jump with them (and also said no if I felt like a jump was over my head - such as being asked to be on a 12-way when I had 40 jumps), and I asked others to jump with me. If I go to a new DZ, especially if I don't know anyone, I ask to get pointed towards the load organizers. People are out there to jump with - sometimes you have to find them, and yeah, sometimes, at some DZs, they're not there. That's a shame and those aren't the types of DZs where I'd want to spend much time. Granted, at some DZs, particularly those that are known to be training centers for world-class teams, you're going to have a lot of folks there who are intensely focused on their team training. Most times of the year, yeah, they're not going to be able to jump with anyone else. Respect that, and find the folks who do have the time to jump with you (and take advantage of those folks when they are available, such as Airspeed at the Holiday Boogie at Eloy). (And before everyone starts going off on the "oh but you're female" argument, I should say that I've seen similar treatment for newer male jumpers, at least those who show a willingness to have fun and learn something on jumps ... walk in with an "I don't need any help" attitude and you probably won't get any.)"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #91 July 20, 2006 QuoteThe advent of AFF is the main reason I feel.... It is more expensive, and its harder to sell than SL as a result of cost, and the "fear" factor... Static line jumps were easier to sell to large groups because it was sold as a "parachute jump". Potential recruits could get their head around that concept a lot easier than making a freefall or skydive, as in AFF.....for a first jumper the psychological aspects (differences) between the two methods are enormous.... I used to get groups of 30 or 40 for a weekend ofstatic line jumps and get them all out, with just myself and one helper.....big groups of friends would show up...some would do 3 or 4 jumps....it was easy to turn them around once jumping started about mid day Saturday... The AFF guys by contrast would take all weekend with 2 or 3 first jumpers......and spend most of that time training......with 2 instructors per student....much more complicated training than SL. Simple Maths....more first jumpers, more would stick around.... Agree 100% Also you touched on it. WE wanted skydiving to become professional (not all but as a group). Well that means people are going to get paid for their time now. Back when I started, and at SL DZ's today, I see up jumpers taking new folks under their wings. It does not happen when people are out to make a buck."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propilot 0 #92 July 21, 2006 Quote That's bullshit at a lot of DZs and at most that I've been to (and I've been to 17 so far). I have been fortunate to have jumped with many, many jumpers with hundreds and thousands of jumps who have happily and willingly jumped with me and other jumpers of lower experience levels and who have asked nothing of me but to smile and have fun on the jump. I had to get over the idea that with my limited skills I was going to "ruin" a jump for a more experienced person. How did I do this? I said yes when people asked me to jump with them (and also said no if I felt like a jump was over my head - such as being asked to be on a 12-way when I had 40 jumps), and I asked others to jump with me. If I go to a new DZ, especially if I don't know anyone, I ask to get pointed towards the load organizers. Quote yea, but your a girl ;] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #93 July 21, 2006 Quote***Skydiving does not need to be your life. __________________________________________________ ...especially when you have a family. I had 10 years of marriage and 2 children when I started in this sport. Every two weeks is all I can handle, not just because of time but because of money too. My gear is also not the prettiest and newest, but it darn sure works... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ You're singing my song! Thankfully, since I finally learned to fly, I can go weeks or months between jumps and still perform fairly well upon my return. It was not as easy in the old days, though. In 1991, with nine years in the sport, I made my 200th jump two weeks before getting married and moving to Georgia. Safety was never compromised; However, such a schedule made it difficult to advance or get to know other jumpers. Regarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years. A few years ago I watched a guy accumulate more than 100 jumps within two years. He then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump. This was profoundly offensive and insulting, but she felt handcuffed by USPA "recommendations." This guy made a few more jumps then disappeared for good. The end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. As a student, jumping a sporadic schedule, I was able to make a few jumps, then come back more than a month or two later and pick up where I'd left off. The main reason I could do this, with plenty of confidence and no compromise of safety, is because I was not confronted by a DZ culture than insisted I was a "high risk" jumper. Once someone has completed the student course and has graduated, he is capable of jumping safely even if he only makes a few jumps per year. Perhaps we need to draw a dinstinction between "jumping safely" and "dramatically improving one's freefall/canopy skills." At 200 jumps I could not fly very well, but I could handle the basic workload of altitude awareness, parachute operation, and landing in a safe place (which usually was very close to the target.) In fact, I bought my Wonderhog/Strato Cloud in March 1990 out of the classified ads in PARACHUTIST. (It was an upgrade, replacing my first used rig, and older version of the same gear.) I had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. If I had been surrounded by a bunch of hand-wringing "currency" nazis, fretting about my belly band and worried that I might not react in the event of an emergency, they might not have allowed me to jump at all, at least not without expensive, redundant retraining. As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. Scared? Of course. Jumping out of airplanes is always scary. But I had complete confidence in my ability to successfully succeed. (Songebob.) Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #94 July 21, 2006 QuoteRegarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years That I don't agree with. The thing maybe you are forgetting is not everyone is you. I know a few folks that are dangerously uncurrent before the USPA's rules say they are. QuoteHe then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump. This was profoundly offensive and insulting, but she felt handcuffed by USPA "recommendations." This guy made a few more jumps then disappeared for good. Chances are the guy would have left anyway. He had to make one SL jump, not the whole program again. QuoteThe end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. This sport is more dangerous than people think it is...This is one of the few sports that publishes an annual FATALITY report. QuoteI had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. Thats YOU, not EVERYONE. QuoteIf I had been surrounded by a bunch of hand-wringing "currency" nazis, fretting about my belly band and worried that I might not react in the event of an emergency, they might not have allowed me to jump at all, at least not without expensive, redundant retraining. As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. The key word there was EXPENSIVE. Like it or not you did undergo recurrency training, "As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check". The problem is at most of todays DZ's people expect to get paid. When I started people who were uncurrent went through a quick brief and I jumped with them at no cost....Hell, I STILL do that when I can. I dont' think the USPA recurrency regs are that out of line. Do I think EVERYONE has the same needs? Nope, but I do think the majority do and it benefits them. One of the problems in this sport is nobody thinks they are "unsafe". Most people think the rules do not apply to them. Maybe they don't, but they do apply to most people IMO. The biggest reason IMO is cost. People running DZ's as a business (I don't blame them really...I get paid for my job). But the club atmosphere is almost gone. People don't take new jumpers under their wings like they used to."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #95 July 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteI was wondering what each one of you would attribute to "the drop in the the number of skydivers" Free flying. You can put a handful of experienced skydivers in a plane, add a couple people with under 50 jumps each, and make multi-point flat jumps which everyone finds fun and challenging. Put a handful of typical skydivers together with a few hundred jumps for a freefly and the best likely outcome is a safe jump where you can see everybody from exit to break-off. Frustration with the later really limits who gets invited to jump with whom which is a big problem for new skydivers and has to be affecting the attrition rate. Winner winner, chicken dinner.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #96 July 24, 2006 Thanks Ron. Some more... QuoteQuoteRegarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years That I don't agree with... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Perhaps if we try hard enough we'll come up with a "new" rule that makes perfect sense, but I speak from the perspective of someone who did it safely, and watched others do it safely, before these rules were enacted. I do insist, however, that any new regulations less than ten years old should be discarded. ...QuoteHe then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump.... Chances are the guy would have left anyway... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ True, there were other issues as well. Last we spoke he still wants to get back into it. But being forced to make a static-line dive did not help and was completely unnessesary. These kinds of rules end up setting a tone in which people come to believe that they cannot safely return after a layoff without jumping through a variety of ridiculous hoops. QuoteThe end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. This sport is more dangerous than people think it is... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Maybe so, but is is not quite as dangerous as the AAD nazies, the currency nazies, nor the equipment nazies would lead one to believe. QuoteI had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. Thats YOU, not EVERYONE... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ That's because everyone did not train on rounds. ...an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. The key word there was EXPENSIVE. Like it or not you did undergo recurrency training..., _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ THIS kind of R.T. makes perfect sense. Usually, when the subect come up, we're talking about formal ground school, extra expense, etc. The R.T. I endured took about two minutes, and didn't cost extra. The process enabled the DZO to familiarize himself with me a bit and ensure I understood the process, while affirming in my mind the seriousness of keeping my head up and performing correctly. Seemed like common sense at the time. Thanks, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyliber 0 #97 July 24, 2006 I got into the sport pretty recently. I make decent money to pay for my skydiving and pilotting hobbies. But, most people I know would like to become skydivers but they just do not have the money. It's very expensive and the other thing, I believe, is the aspect that you can die or be injured doing it. Plus, the lack of trust they have in themselves. So... But, I agree that a lot of the veteran skydivers are hanging up their rigs and calling it that. In reference to another person who made a comment about a sequal to Point Break, it would probably commercialize the hell of the sport even more that it is and jack up the prices of everything. Or maybe not. They could re-release a special enchanced version of Dropzone the movie!! -=+ Skyliber, Disynthegrate, & Nucleaire +=- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaveCogan 0 #98 August 2, 2006 New Zealand has about 23 drop zones and about 600 licensed jumpers. We do about 70,000 tandems a year and have the 2 largest tandem operations in the world on the same airfield (I believe). We have been so agressive at running tandem operations for the past 15 years that it has caused sport jumping to decline rapidly. Most of the people that were good at making jumping happening are now too busy running tandem operations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funjumper101 15 #99 August 2, 2006 I am trying to stay active in the sport. I did a lot of jumps and never logged them. When I was jumping a lot I was at a non-GM dz. There was a fairly strong anti-USPA sentiment among the people who hung out with at the time. I should have a 4 digit or low five digit D license. As it stands now I never even bothered to get an A license. I have the logged jumps and training requirements for a C license. I'll have to get one as it is getting to be a pain in the ass to jump at DZs that are strict about the new USPA rules. I jumped the jet in 1993. I was doing two point 40 ways at the WFFC that year. A team I was on almost won the 20 way meet at Lodi in 1989. I have jumped in Hawaii, Florida, Massachusetts, Maine, Oregon, and Washington, as well as California. I have plenty of experience and I consider myself to be a safe skydiver. In 2003 I tried to jump on my 20th anniversary of my first jump. Due to the lack of license, the fact that the manifest gals didn't know me, and the DZOs (who I have known for years) weren't around, I was turned away at two different DZs. There weren't instructors around that could take me on a dive. As far as the manifest gals were concerned, I was not competent. Thanks to the USPA's bullshit rules, the anniversary turned to shit. Even though I had video and stills that clearly showed me skydiving successfully, I was turned away. Rules are rules, after all. At that point I very nearly quit. Better planning would have produced better results. It was a spur of the moment, last second decision to blow off work and go for it. I have a life outside of skydiving. I don't have the time and resources to be jumping all the time. It is hard to get away to go skydiving. I have been averaging 10-25 jumps a year. I absolutely wish I could jump more, but life has a way of preventing it. It is very nice that the USPA has managed to make it difficult to keep jumping when time and resources are hard to come by. It is no wonder that the sport is shrinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #100 August 2, 2006 QuoteThanks to the USPA's bullshit rules, the anniversary turned to shit. I am no big fan of USP, but USPA bullshit rules had nothing to do with you lack of logging or being able to verify your jump history. You chose not to participate in USPA and now it is their fault? Sorry doesn't wash.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Airman1270 0 #93 July 21, 2006 Quote***Skydiving does not need to be your life. __________________________________________________ ...especially when you have a family. I had 10 years of marriage and 2 children when I started in this sport. Every two weeks is all I can handle, not just because of time but because of money too. My gear is also not the prettiest and newest, but it darn sure works... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ You're singing my song! Thankfully, since I finally learned to fly, I can go weeks or months between jumps and still perform fairly well upon my return. It was not as easy in the old days, though. In 1991, with nine years in the sport, I made my 200th jump two weeks before getting married and moving to Georgia. Safety was never compromised; However, such a schedule made it difficult to advance or get to know other jumpers. Regarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years. A few years ago I watched a guy accumulate more than 100 jumps within two years. He then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump. This was profoundly offensive and insulting, but she felt handcuffed by USPA "recommendations." This guy made a few more jumps then disappeared for good. The end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. As a student, jumping a sporadic schedule, I was able to make a few jumps, then come back more than a month or two later and pick up where I'd left off. The main reason I could do this, with plenty of confidence and no compromise of safety, is because I was not confronted by a DZ culture than insisted I was a "high risk" jumper. Once someone has completed the student course and has graduated, he is capable of jumping safely even if he only makes a few jumps per year. Perhaps we need to draw a dinstinction between "jumping safely" and "dramatically improving one's freefall/canopy skills." At 200 jumps I could not fly very well, but I could handle the basic workload of altitude awareness, parachute operation, and landing in a safe place (which usually was very close to the target.) In fact, I bought my Wonderhog/Strato Cloud in March 1990 out of the classified ads in PARACHUTIST. (It was an upgrade, replacing my first used rig, and older version of the same gear.) I had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. If I had been surrounded by a bunch of hand-wringing "currency" nazis, fretting about my belly band and worried that I might not react in the event of an emergency, they might not have allowed me to jump at all, at least not without expensive, redundant retraining. As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. Scared? Of course. Jumping out of airplanes is always scary. But I had complete confidence in my ability to successfully succeed. (Songebob.) Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #94 July 21, 2006 QuoteRegarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years That I don't agree with. The thing maybe you are forgetting is not everyone is you. I know a few folks that are dangerously uncurrent before the USPA's rules say they are. QuoteHe then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump. This was profoundly offensive and insulting, but she felt handcuffed by USPA "recommendations." This guy made a few more jumps then disappeared for good. Chances are the guy would have left anyway. He had to make one SL jump, not the whole program again. QuoteThe end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. This sport is more dangerous than people think it is...This is one of the few sports that publishes an annual FATALITY report. QuoteI had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. Thats YOU, not EVERYONE. QuoteIf I had been surrounded by a bunch of hand-wringing "currency" nazis, fretting about my belly band and worried that I might not react in the event of an emergency, they might not have allowed me to jump at all, at least not without expensive, redundant retraining. As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. The key word there was EXPENSIVE. Like it or not you did undergo recurrency training, "As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check". The problem is at most of todays DZ's people expect to get paid. When I started people who were uncurrent went through a quick brief and I jumped with them at no cost....Hell, I STILL do that when I can. I dont' think the USPA recurrency regs are that out of line. Do I think EVERYONE has the same needs? Nope, but I do think the majority do and it benefits them. One of the problems in this sport is nobody thinks they are "unsafe". Most people think the rules do not apply to them. Maybe they don't, but they do apply to most people IMO. The biggest reason IMO is cost. People running DZ's as a business (I don't blame them really...I get paid for my job). But the club atmosphere is almost gone. People don't take new jumpers under their wings like they used to."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #95 July 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteI was wondering what each one of you would attribute to "the drop in the the number of skydivers" Free flying. You can put a handful of experienced skydivers in a plane, add a couple people with under 50 jumps each, and make multi-point flat jumps which everyone finds fun and challenging. Put a handful of typical skydivers together with a few hundred jumps for a freefly and the best likely outcome is a safe jump where you can see everybody from exit to break-off. Frustration with the later really limits who gets invited to jump with whom which is a big problem for new skydivers and has to be affecting the attrition rate. Winner winner, chicken dinner.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #96 July 24, 2006 Thanks Ron. Some more... QuoteQuoteRegarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years That I don't agree with... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Perhaps if we try hard enough we'll come up with a "new" rule that makes perfect sense, but I speak from the perspective of someone who did it safely, and watched others do it safely, before these rules were enacted. I do insist, however, that any new regulations less than ten years old should be discarded. ...QuoteHe then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump.... Chances are the guy would have left anyway... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ True, there were other issues as well. Last we spoke he still wants to get back into it. But being forced to make a static-line dive did not help and was completely unnessesary. These kinds of rules end up setting a tone in which people come to believe that they cannot safely return after a layoff without jumping through a variety of ridiculous hoops. QuoteThe end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. This sport is more dangerous than people think it is... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Maybe so, but is is not quite as dangerous as the AAD nazies, the currency nazies, nor the equipment nazies would lead one to believe. QuoteI had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. Thats YOU, not EVERYONE... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ That's because everyone did not train on rounds. ...an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. The key word there was EXPENSIVE. Like it or not you did undergo recurrency training..., _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ THIS kind of R.T. makes perfect sense. Usually, when the subect come up, we're talking about formal ground school, extra expense, etc. The R.T. I endured took about two minutes, and didn't cost extra. The process enabled the DZO to familiarize himself with me a bit and ensure I understood the process, while affirming in my mind the seriousness of keeping my head up and performing correctly. Seemed like common sense at the time. Thanks, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyliber 0 #97 July 24, 2006 I got into the sport pretty recently. I make decent money to pay for my skydiving and pilotting hobbies. But, most people I know would like to become skydivers but they just do not have the money. It's very expensive and the other thing, I believe, is the aspect that you can die or be injured doing it. Plus, the lack of trust they have in themselves. So... But, I agree that a lot of the veteran skydivers are hanging up their rigs and calling it that. In reference to another person who made a comment about a sequal to Point Break, it would probably commercialize the hell of the sport even more that it is and jack up the prices of everything. Or maybe not. They could re-release a special enchanced version of Dropzone the movie!! -=+ Skyliber, Disynthegrate, & Nucleaire +=- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaveCogan 0 #98 August 2, 2006 New Zealand has about 23 drop zones and about 600 licensed jumpers. We do about 70,000 tandems a year and have the 2 largest tandem operations in the world on the same airfield (I believe). We have been so agressive at running tandem operations for the past 15 years that it has caused sport jumping to decline rapidly. Most of the people that were good at making jumping happening are now too busy running tandem operations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funjumper101 15 #99 August 2, 2006 I am trying to stay active in the sport. I did a lot of jumps and never logged them. When I was jumping a lot I was at a non-GM dz. There was a fairly strong anti-USPA sentiment among the people who hung out with at the time. I should have a 4 digit or low five digit D license. As it stands now I never even bothered to get an A license. I have the logged jumps and training requirements for a C license. I'll have to get one as it is getting to be a pain in the ass to jump at DZs that are strict about the new USPA rules. I jumped the jet in 1993. I was doing two point 40 ways at the WFFC that year. A team I was on almost won the 20 way meet at Lodi in 1989. I have jumped in Hawaii, Florida, Massachusetts, Maine, Oregon, and Washington, as well as California. I have plenty of experience and I consider myself to be a safe skydiver. In 2003 I tried to jump on my 20th anniversary of my first jump. Due to the lack of license, the fact that the manifest gals didn't know me, and the DZOs (who I have known for years) weren't around, I was turned away at two different DZs. There weren't instructors around that could take me on a dive. As far as the manifest gals were concerned, I was not competent. Thanks to the USPA's bullshit rules, the anniversary turned to shit. Even though I had video and stills that clearly showed me skydiving successfully, I was turned away. Rules are rules, after all. At that point I very nearly quit. Better planning would have produced better results. It was a spur of the moment, last second decision to blow off work and go for it. I have a life outside of skydiving. I don't have the time and resources to be jumping all the time. It is hard to get away to go skydiving. I have been averaging 10-25 jumps a year. I absolutely wish I could jump more, but life has a way of preventing it. It is very nice that the USPA has managed to make it difficult to keep jumping when time and resources are hard to come by. It is no wonder that the sport is shrinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #100 August 2, 2006 QuoteThanks to the USPA's bullshit rules, the anniversary turned to shit. I am no big fan of USP, but USPA bullshit rules had nothing to do with you lack of logging or being able to verify your jump history. You chose not to participate in USPA and now it is their fault? Sorry doesn't wash.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Ron 7 #94 July 21, 2006 QuoteRegarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years That I don't agree with. The thing maybe you are forgetting is not everyone is you. I know a few folks that are dangerously uncurrent before the USPA's rules say they are. QuoteHe then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump. This was profoundly offensive and insulting, but she felt handcuffed by USPA "recommendations." This guy made a few more jumps then disappeared for good. Chances are the guy would have left anyway. He had to make one SL jump, not the whole program again. QuoteThe end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. This sport is more dangerous than people think it is...This is one of the few sports that publishes an annual FATALITY report. QuoteI had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. Thats YOU, not EVERYONE. QuoteIf I had been surrounded by a bunch of hand-wringing "currency" nazis, fretting about my belly band and worried that I might not react in the event of an emergency, they might not have allowed me to jump at all, at least not without expensive, redundant retraining. As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. The key word there was EXPENSIVE. Like it or not you did undergo recurrency training, "As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check". The problem is at most of todays DZ's people expect to get paid. When I started people who were uncurrent went through a quick brief and I jumped with them at no cost....Hell, I STILL do that when I can. I dont' think the USPA recurrency regs are that out of line. Do I think EVERYONE has the same needs? Nope, but I do think the majority do and it benefits them. One of the problems in this sport is nobody thinks they are "unsafe". Most people think the rules do not apply to them. Maybe they don't, but they do apply to most people IMO. The biggest reason IMO is cost. People running DZ's as a business (I don't blame them really...I get paid for my job). But the club atmosphere is almost gone. People don't take new jumpers under their wings like they used to."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #95 July 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteI was wondering what each one of you would attribute to "the drop in the the number of skydivers" Free flying. You can put a handful of experienced skydivers in a plane, add a couple people with under 50 jumps each, and make multi-point flat jumps which everyone finds fun and challenging. Put a handful of typical skydivers together with a few hundred jumps for a freefly and the best likely outcome is a safe jump where you can see everybody from exit to break-off. Frustration with the later really limits who gets invited to jump with whom which is a big problem for new skydivers and has to be affecting the attrition rate. Winner winner, chicken dinner.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #96 July 24, 2006 Thanks Ron. Some more... QuoteQuoteRegarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years That I don't agree with... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Perhaps if we try hard enough we'll come up with a "new" rule that makes perfect sense, but I speak from the perspective of someone who did it safely, and watched others do it safely, before these rules were enacted. I do insist, however, that any new regulations less than ten years old should be discarded. ...QuoteHe then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump.... Chances are the guy would have left anyway... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ True, there were other issues as well. Last we spoke he still wants to get back into it. But being forced to make a static-line dive did not help and was completely unnessesary. These kinds of rules end up setting a tone in which people come to believe that they cannot safely return after a layoff without jumping through a variety of ridiculous hoops. QuoteThe end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. This sport is more dangerous than people think it is... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Maybe so, but is is not quite as dangerous as the AAD nazies, the currency nazies, nor the equipment nazies would lead one to believe. QuoteI had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. Thats YOU, not EVERYONE... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ That's because everyone did not train on rounds. ...an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. The key word there was EXPENSIVE. Like it or not you did undergo recurrency training..., _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ THIS kind of R.T. makes perfect sense. Usually, when the subect come up, we're talking about formal ground school, extra expense, etc. The R.T. I endured took about two minutes, and didn't cost extra. The process enabled the DZO to familiarize himself with me a bit and ensure I understood the process, while affirming in my mind the seriousness of keeping my head up and performing correctly. Seemed like common sense at the time. Thanks, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyliber 0 #97 July 24, 2006 I got into the sport pretty recently. I make decent money to pay for my skydiving and pilotting hobbies. But, most people I know would like to become skydivers but they just do not have the money. It's very expensive and the other thing, I believe, is the aspect that you can die or be injured doing it. Plus, the lack of trust they have in themselves. So... But, I agree that a lot of the veteran skydivers are hanging up their rigs and calling it that. In reference to another person who made a comment about a sequal to Point Break, it would probably commercialize the hell of the sport even more that it is and jack up the prices of everything. Or maybe not. They could re-release a special enchanced version of Dropzone the movie!! -=+ Skyliber, Disynthegrate, & Nucleaire +=- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaveCogan 0 #98 August 2, 2006 New Zealand has about 23 drop zones and about 600 licensed jumpers. We do about 70,000 tandems a year and have the 2 largest tandem operations in the world on the same airfield (I believe). We have been so agressive at running tandem operations for the past 15 years that it has caused sport jumping to decline rapidly. Most of the people that were good at making jumping happening are now too busy running tandem operations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #99 August 2, 2006 I am trying to stay active in the sport. I did a lot of jumps and never logged them. When I was jumping a lot I was at a non-GM dz. There was a fairly strong anti-USPA sentiment among the people who hung out with at the time. I should have a 4 digit or low five digit D license. As it stands now I never even bothered to get an A license. I have the logged jumps and training requirements for a C license. I'll have to get one as it is getting to be a pain in the ass to jump at DZs that are strict about the new USPA rules. I jumped the jet in 1993. I was doing two point 40 ways at the WFFC that year. A team I was on almost won the 20 way meet at Lodi in 1989. I have jumped in Hawaii, Florida, Massachusetts, Maine, Oregon, and Washington, as well as California. I have plenty of experience and I consider myself to be a safe skydiver. In 2003 I tried to jump on my 20th anniversary of my first jump. Due to the lack of license, the fact that the manifest gals didn't know me, and the DZOs (who I have known for years) weren't around, I was turned away at two different DZs. There weren't instructors around that could take me on a dive. As far as the manifest gals were concerned, I was not competent. Thanks to the USPA's bullshit rules, the anniversary turned to shit. Even though I had video and stills that clearly showed me skydiving successfully, I was turned away. Rules are rules, after all. At that point I very nearly quit. Better planning would have produced better results. It was a spur of the moment, last second decision to blow off work and go for it. I have a life outside of skydiving. I don't have the time and resources to be jumping all the time. It is hard to get away to go skydiving. I have been averaging 10-25 jumps a year. I absolutely wish I could jump more, but life has a way of preventing it. It is very nice that the USPA has managed to make it difficult to keep jumping when time and resources are hard to come by. It is no wonder that the sport is shrinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #100 August 2, 2006 QuoteThanks to the USPA's bullshit rules, the anniversary turned to shit. I am no big fan of USP, but USPA bullshit rules had nothing to do with you lack of logging or being able to verify your jump history. You chose not to participate in USPA and now it is their fault? Sorry doesn't wash.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
