Drop in the number of Skydivers

[MotherGoose 0]

Yah . . . by the time I get good enough, there should be a 1000-way record in the making . . .

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Yes, it is a bad thing.

Go to any popular ski resort and see what going main stream has done for them. The operators make more money and the skiers wait in line. Growth for the sake of growth usually screws up a good thing.

(Bear with me, folks. I had a long convo with a much more-experienced skydiver about this topic the other day, and I have a lot to say on the matter. Apologies for being wordy - I was an English major ).


Growth is most-definitely a double-edged sword.

Seriously. As mjosparky correctly pointed out, with growth comes growing pains. And if we want growth in the sport, we have to accept that, and prepare for it.

That being said, I think that the benefits of growing our sport far outweigh the detriments. I'll take the advantages of having more people interested and doing more things in the air over the disadvantages of shrinking membership, less gear suppliers, etc. So what is the overall problem, then?

I haven't been around long enough to speak for the baby boomers getting out of the sport, so I'll file that under 'possibility'. I know that cost is a HUGE barrier to entry for most people, myself included. Ms. A (above) & I both paid about the same amount to get our A license. And now we're looking at acquiring & renting gear, etc...in addition to the regular tickets to 12,500'. It scares a lot of people away...if they get far enough into the sport to consider doing it regularly. Back to the thoughts of what happened with skiing and snowboarding going mainstream, think how much cheaper it is to pay for a day on the mountain and renting a pair of skis than it is to do, say, an AFF-Level 7. You can buy a snowboard for less than you pay for 2 AFF jumps.

So cost is most definitely a factor in people continuing on after doing their first tandem. But I don't think that's the full problem. I think the full problem comes even before that: it's the problem of public mindset.

People don't know what the possibilities of skydiving are. I hate to say it, but it seems to me it's gone out of the social consciousness as a 'cool' sport that anyone can do (& that pushes the envelope enough to attract the teenagers & mid-twenties types).

Think of it - how many people do you know who find out you're a skydiver who say, "Oh, cool! I've always wanted to do that!", but never have? I myself was one of those who said I was gonna do it when I was 18...and just didn't get around to it until I was 27. Why? Who knows? It wasn't enough of a thing to do. It wasn't a high enough priority for me. It sounded cool...but I had no idea of what I'd be getting myself into, and thus I had no imperative to go out and do it.

People in the advertising industry say you have to see a logo at least 4-5 times before you really remember it. Hence the reason a company puts up 30 billboards, instead of just 1. Now, applying the same logic to our sport: how often does skydiving make it into the popular media?

Back to skiing & snowboarding, let's hear it for the Winter X-Games!! They've done a HUGE thing for snowboarding (which is gaining more people snowboarding than skiing is these days...and I think that's mostly due to young people wanting to do what's the current "cool" thing. Hell, I've never even lived near snow, and I've snowboarded). We now have snowboarding 'stars' like Shaun White giving interviews on the network news. It's at the forefront of the public mind. By comparison, how many times have you seen skydiving on ESPN lately (besides a fatality report)? How many feature news stories are done on our sport anymore?

I think the key to increasing the number of people who want to jump out of airplanes is to put it in their face and make it 'cool' again. Which presents another big problem: the fact that no matter how rad it is to us when we see a freefly team working some serious magic...to those who haven't skydived, there's no real concept. They can't see it up close - only via camera. Which really kinda deflates the whole proposition (not saying it isn't rad as hell now when I see a great skydiving video - just saying that when I used to watch skysurfing on the X-Games, I had no idea how difficult the things that were being done were. Watching skateboarding, on the other hand, I could understand a bit more: you could see how high they were off the ramp when they threw their 720's). Our sport is not really one for spectators.

...or is it?

Okay, I know I'm horribly long-winded, but here's the ultimate conclusion we reached in our discussion of this the other day: Swooping may be the way to get people back in the door.

It's really the only way that someone can watch one of the more exciting disciplines of skydiving live & in-person. Which gives the possibility of network TV coverage, spectators, fans...all of which translates into higher awareness from the public.

(And the kids think it's pretty wicked).

Granted, the idea of swooping scares the sh** out of me at this point in my skydiving experience...and we don't want to encourage hot-headed people to get into skydiving who might downsize far too rapidly & injure themselves (& others)...but that's always the risk with a sport like skydiving. And hopefully good training will help them respect a little better how unforgiving the sport can be. (Not to mention that once people start to experience all the things you can do in freefall, they often get sidetracked. See my above comment about my not knowing what I was getting myself into).

However we do it, point is, I think we need to find ways to bring our sport back into the public eye (besides raising the amount of fatalities each year). And I think right now pond-swooping is the best-positioned skydiving discipline to get people to turn their heads and take notice.

Again, apologies for the longwinded-ness...but I think this is a serious question for the future of our sport, and it deserves some serious thought.

[Ron 7]

Zig Zag....I don't think goose was bagging on you.

Goose...Well said. I'll put it this way. There is a guy on here that sends me a PM about once a week. He is friendly and wants to learn. So when I am at the DZ who do you think I go look for to help? Him, or they guy that has never said "hi" to me?

Simple fact is if I don't know you, and you make no effort to let me know who you are, and there are loads of people, how the heck am I supposed to know you want help?

If you don't make yourself noticable, I will not notice you.

Wallflowers don't get to dance.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Good Gawd! $3000 to get to an A-License!!

I'm glad I came up a long time ago when it was about $1200 for me to get off of student-status and my fir... err... initial rig only cost me $3000 for a new container, new main, new reserve... AADs weren't all the rage then...

Ms.A, you may want to run the numbers on some other SoCal DZ's, I'd be interested to know if they're all that expensive.

To clarify, I think Ms. A was including all the costs of getting to an A license...which, in this day and age, means the cost of AFF levels 1-7, plus jump tickets & coaching fees (when you choose to jump with a coach - which, I've gotta say, is ultimately a good thing, because you can only do so many 'no-pressure' jumps as a student by yourself before it gets kinda boring) & gear rental for the jumps after AFF. Not to mention it now goes to 25 jumps before the 'A', as opposed to the former 20. If you're paying for gear and a coach, that's an extra $500 right there.

I checked at the DZ's around the Los Angeles area, and an AFF approach to the 'A' license, including AFF jumps, student jumps, coaching (when you want it), & gear rental all seems to run about the same price.

And then you have to start looking for your own rig...

Signatures are the new black.

[marks 0]

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Okay, I know I'm horribly long-winded, but here's the ultimate conclusion we reached in our discussion of this the other day: Swooping may be the way to get people back in the door.

I might be biased, but alot of other skydivers i have spoken to agree to this statement.

someone work some things and get us some TV time!!!

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However we do it, point is, I think we need to find ways to bring our sport back into the public eye (besides raising the amount of fatalities each year). And I think right now pond-swooping is the best-positioned skydiving discipline to get people to turn their heads and take notice.

so, we hold nationals this year at a "PUBLIC" venue, yet it is so damn expensive, most of the "top" swoopers", are not going because of the price.

we spend so much of our time and money to be competitive, travel and what not all year, we tear our gear up annually, and sponsorships are running thinner.

so we see that swooping might be a good thing for this sport, so we put it the "NATIONAL" comp. in the public eye, but it cost so much, alot of us are not going. it sucks..

it isn't a selection year for the world team, so where is the motivation for us to go.? ya ya ya we could get "time in the public eye". but that is at a cost so extreme to the jumper.

to be a swooper, takes lots and lots of money.

thanks for the PST, they give us the drive to compete for the "chance" to make some of that money back.

ok im done, and i probably was very random. but im just venting.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

You're right... the "back in the day" solution of transitioning from a student to an up-jumper may not have been the best since you kinda had to muddle through until you racked up a number of jumps before people would jump with you, along the way, maybe you got bored and/or developed bad RW habbits... as opposed to today's solution of being able to get coaching, but then having to shell out extra bucks... they both have their pros and cons... nothing is free.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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so we see that swooping might be a good thing for this sport, so we put it the "NATIONAL" comp. in the public eye, but it cost so much, alot of us are not going. it sucks..

it isn't a selection year for the world team, so where is the motivation for us to go.? ya ya ya we could get "time in the public eye". but that is at a cost so extreme to the jumper.

to be a swooper, takes lots and lots of money.

thanks for the PST, they give us the drive to compete for the "chance" to make some of that money back.

ok im done, and i probably was very random. but im just venting.

Of course, to be a skydiver in general takes lots and lots of money (says the guy who just paid a bit over $3000 to get his A license, and now needs gear...and $ for food). But having to travel obviously adds onto cost for swoopers...and as you said, a public venue is expensive, esp. with less sponsors. But I think it's up to us to build it...then the sponsors will come. (Sponsors are always ambulance-chasers...gotta face it).

One question - what does the USPA do as far as Public Relations go?

My only experience with the organization as a whole is that of reading the SIM manual & sending off my license app...so I really have no idea. But it seems like actively promoting the sport would fall under their umbrella.

Going to the USPA website, however, & looking through the directory, I can't tell who's in charge of handling public awareness of skydiving. The nearest categories would be 'Marketing' and 'Media Inquiries'...but as we've pointed out, the media isn't going to come to us. We need to be taking it to their front door.

I'm just curious if there isn't some way to organize the USPA membership into better knocking on doors, getting it in the face of the media. And shouldn't the USPA have a full-time PR person who's out shaking down trees? Seems a logical expense to me... (and maybe they do - I just can't find anyone listed on the website, who a member might contact to discuss ways to get involved and get it out there).

Anyone know how the USPA works on this front?

If the USPA could secure some media attention, I don't think you'd need to shell out the bucks for the swooping Nationals. I mean, the only place I ever hear about Nationals is in skydiving publications. Do we advertise these events to the non-skydiving public? I get the sense that if we start to get some of the general public there (and get media attention), I would think that more people would come the next time around, provided we keep it interesting...

Oh, one other little PR thing: We need a 'Flying Tomato' of skydiving. We could really use a poster-boy/girl, who'll make the sport seem more human. Any takers?

[LloydDobbler 2]

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You're right... the "back in the day" solution of transitioning from a student to an up-jumper may not have been the best since you kinda had to muddle through until you racked up a number of jumps before people would jump with you, along the way, maybe you got bored and/or developed bad RW habbits... as opposed to today's solution of being able to get coaching, but then having to shell out extra bucks... they both have their pros and cons... nothing is free.

Too true. And to be honest, I look at all the money spent as a necessary evil.

On my 27th jump, another new jumper (32 jumps) & I managed to dock with at around 8000' after exiting about 3 seconds apart. I'm told that's pretty good (but I have no point of reference. Seems like a relatively simple thing). But lord knows, without the coaching we'd received, I don't know that either of us would have been able to get anywhere near that, at that point.

So while the cost barrier to entry is pretty crazy...on the flipside, if what people are telling me is true, it does seem like it'll ultimately help me out in the long run.

[Athomeonarock 0]

Hi all, ive never posted before, but I thought I’d offer myself up as a case study on this topic. I did a tandem at the end of June and absolutely fell in love. Went back the next week and took the SL course, and had even more fun, and hope to do a few more jumps before the end of summer But now im stuck, I get about one weekend a month off( I’m a med student, so tweaking the schedule is almost impossible), and this seems to be a weekend only sport around here. I cant imagine spending the amount of money to maybe jump once a month if the weathers good. My jumps so far has been off loans,(don’t tell the federales) Also, this seems like a skill to commit to, being barley current seems like a good way to up the likelihood of a bounce. Anyway, hopefully ill be back in a few years, Till then I remain a jealous Whuffo
Blue skies
Pete

[wildfan75 1]

Firstly, in regards to Lloyd's email...Of the people who are world/national class swoopers, how long did it take you to get there? We're going to have people who are going to think they can come into the sport, do a few student jumps, and then want to start land with the wind so they can get a good swoop. Will profiling swooping in the national, public media get more people interested in skydiving? Absolutely! But do we really want the people who see that and want a QUICK thrill in our sport? Probably not. Although it would help the fatality rate, which would also get more people involved. But I really don't want to have to continually reassure my family and friends that yes, someone died this weekend and then go over the list of mistakes which that jumper made.

ZigZag--no, we don't need to pay for coaching jumps, but as long as the high jumpers demand that they get paid, then yes, we'll have to pay for coaching jumps. That was just my point--if more high jumpers gave their time, experience, and knowledge to those jumpers who are obviously going to stick around, we'd have more, experience, qualified low jump numbers, willing to PAY IT FORWARD when the time comes. Henceforth, continueing our sport with qualified, experience jumpers, and not just people looking for a quick thrill with a life ending "cool" swoop!

Quick note...Lloyd Dobbler--awesome username, great username, if only every guy was a Lloyd Dobbler!

[sburkart 0]

Maybe there are people who would rather be- or more able to afford to be- parachutists than skydivers. For instance, I know that unless I hit the Power Ball I'll never be able to afford much more than 60 or 70 skydives a year, a number I know wont ever lead me to be attain great skydiving skills- but maybe in time I'll be a decent accuracy pilot, and maybe that alone will be enough to keep me in the game.

The industry doesn't cater to that scenario at this time, but I think there's business being lost by focusing exclusively on marketing to the public the thrill of freefall and the extreme nature of the sport. Most people would NOT engage in extreme sports or activities, so why is it that the industry portrays itself as such? Freefall, CRW, swooping etc. is extreme, no question, but canopy flight (sans hook turns and collisions of course) can be a peaceful, pleasant experience that doesn't -have- to start with going to 13.5 and falling for 60 seconds every time.

When I was a kid and skateboards first came out, I would spend hours just running a slalom of pine cones on a quiet street. A deacde or so later, SOME kids (with much better boards) were building ramps and getting extreme and doing all sorts of stunts, but the other side of it is that for the most part the majority of skateboarders to this day are pretty much content to do the equivalent of running a slalom of pine cones in the street, just as most BMX bike riders dont practice stunts, they just ride around their neigborhoods.

If there is a real problem with retention (is it true the average skydiver is in the sport for an average of three years?) maybe the industry would benefit from rethinking its marketing strategy, and adjust its operations accordingly.

It's a big sky, it might make sense to be more inclusive. Just a thought.

[akarunway 1]

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could always see if you could borrow gear from a friend that would be jumping similar things to what you are now..

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and the SIM was $30

I dont see why people buy these.. you can d/l it for free

And the cost of ink and paper to print it is?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[kelpdiver 2]

[MotherGoose 0]

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Zig Zag....I don't think goose was bagging on you.

Goose...Well said. I'll put it this way. There is a guy on here that sends me a PM about once a week. He is friendly and wants to learn. So when I am at the DZ who do you think I go look for to help? Him, or they guy that has never said "hi" to me?

Simple fact is if I don't know you, and you make no effort to let me know who you are, and there are loads of people, how the heck am I supposed to know you want help?

If you don't make yourself noticable, I will not notice you.

Wallflowers don't get to dance.

There's no doubt, that to excel in this sport, you can't do it part time. You can jump once every couple of weeks and take your time through the progression, but that sure as hell won't make you a skydiver.

This sport can easily consume your whole life . . . and rightfully it should . . . this ain't soccer kids . . . every time you go . . . you CAN die . . . never stop learning.

Most DZ's are a "keg" of knowledge . . . learn to tap into it.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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ZigZag--no, we don't need to pay for coaching jumps, but as long as the high jumpers demand that they get paid, then yes, we'll have to pay for coaching jumps. That was just my point--if more high jumpers gave their time, experience, and knowledge to those jumpers who are obviously going to stick around, we'd have more, experience, qualified low jump numbers, willing to PAY IT FORWARD when the time comes.

That's what I was trying to say too, sorry if I didn't get my point across correctly. Its just difficult sometimes to do that all the time... some days, going up and doing some simple 2 and 3 ways with a bunch of low timers is way cool and I have not problem doing it for free (to them... buy my own slot and don't expect a "tip")... but other times I'd rather go jump with my buddies is all. Even doing the occasional "free" coach jump can get you on the "worng side" of someone who's "making a living" doing this... but that's DZ politics which is a whole different subject...

[skydivermom 0]

***Well said and one of the reasons I like SL.

Most places do not nickel and dime SL students. They do it for love of the sport, not money.

I still think that way and I am an AFF I.

__________________________________________________

Static line is what saved my skydiving career. AFF would have frustrated me and bled me dry in a heartbeat. I am so thankful for my Cessna, static line dz. I only paid $1300 for the whole training, and only $20 a jump after that as no one charged for coach jumps...and then I got a great deal on a rig from my instructor there, so I didn't have to rent gear for long.

...And I've been incredibly blessed to have Walt Appel's help since the beginning. He's also a wonderful friend.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[Ron 7]

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There's no doubt, that to excel in this sport, you can't do it part time

Agree 100%.

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You can jump once every couple of weeks and take your time through the progression, but that sure as hell won't make you a skydiver.

This I disagree with. There are very few jumpers that can make this their life. If you jump, you are a skydiver.

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This sport can easily consume your whole life . . . and rightfully it should . . . this ain't soccer kids . . . every time you go . . . you CAN die . . . never stop learning.

Everyone thinks that this sport should be your whole life.....Well it is fun for a while, but then it can get old. I spent a few years living on a big DZ. It was fun, but that time has past.

Skydiving does not need to be your life.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skydivermom 0]

***Skydiving does not need to be your life.


__________________________________________________

...especially when you have a family. I had 10 years of marriage and 2 children when I started in this sport. Every two weeks is all I can handle, not just because of time but because of money too. My gear is also not the prettiest and newest, but it darn sure works.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[Sky15 0]

I'm feeling old at my ripe age of 35 reading this thread..I only paid $600 for my AFF jumps 15 years ago. I think I got a slight discount for being military, just a nice courtesy from the dz, this was right after Desert Storm. Seeing that only 5 years later many paid almost double that makes me grateful I started when I did.

And heck back then that was expensive to me, I remember eating cheap and cleaning airplanes to help pay for some jumps.

ETA: I agree that everyone that safely can do it should jump with low timers, maybe it's just the history of the cessna dzs I came from but that is just the way it always has been. While I think the coach stuff can be good, I do think it makes it so expensive for the student and it's a shame that it would be necessary at all. We used to always do 2,3, and 4 ways with our graduates and build the same skills, and they didn't even have to buy our slots, much less pay us.

[Zenister 0]

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...I recommend all students and novices spend some ground time on the DZ, get to know the instructors, buy them a freakin' beer, listen to the stories at the bonfire...

* ding ding ding *

Hang up the phones!!! We have ourselves a winner!!!

only if the dropzone promotes policies that keep it "home" instead of simply "a place to skydive"

Ive seen significant change in the atmosphere, (not a good one) in my short time skydiving.

in the past many of the very experienced people would hang out, chat, and informally teach low timers, building friendships and better skydivers all around, but the "business first, profit from every jumper" attitudes and policy changes mean that (for the most part) everyone packs up and leaves to the places they DO feel comfortable as soon as the props stop. (and the props stop sooner because fewer people hang out for 'pick up' loads later in the day...)

those places are becoming farther and farther away from the DZ and the new jumper, with fewer friends in the ;experienced crowd" is left behind, because of (IME & IMO) no one wants to be around what became the "job" instead of the place they once felt "at home" any longer than they absolutely have to...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[MotherGoose 0]

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Everyone thinks that this sport should be your whole life.....Well it is fun for a while, but then it can get old. I spent a few years living on a big DZ. It was fun, but that time has past.

Skydiving does not need to be your life.

Well Ron, after 3500 jumps, I can see your point, but I stick by my original comment, FOR NEW SKYDIVERS, hanging out at the DZ will make you a much better jumper. I realize some people can't commit themselves as much as others. All I'm saying is that the people spending more time at the DZ will progress faster, on average and get more attention from coaches and staff. (on average)

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[kelpdiver 2]

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FOR NEW SKYDIVERS, hanging out at the DZ will make you a much better jumper. I realize some people can't commit themselves as much as others. All I'm saying is that the people spending more time at the DZ will progress faster, on average and get more attention from coaches and staff. (on average)

Sure, that's true. But you said that people who show up every other weekend aren't real skydivers, which is ridiculous. Anyone that can summon the will to leave the plane on a static line, solo, or tandem are real skydivers.

For those that willingly make it their single sport (that doesn't seem to be you), their skills should develop much more quickly. But many would see that sort of dedication closer to work than fun. And quite a drain on the wallet.

[Hayfield 0]

You should go to the Ranch. A lot less expensive (45 a solo with gear) and D license types who are willing to jump with newbs on their own dollar (and through rain too!) Hint-bring beer.

thought I'd also mention that the staff at the Ranch has been saying this is the busiest it's been in years.

"Remember the First Commandment: Don't Fuck Up!"
-Crusty Old Pete

[Casurf1978 0]

[replyEVERY SINGLE TANDEM is a Potential new jumper and should be treated as such.

[Dolph 0]

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Sure, that's true. But you said that people who show up every other weekend aren't real skydivers, which is ridiculous. Anyone that can summon the will to leave the plane on a static line, solo, or tandem are real skydivers.

I think my views on this could be extracted from how I treat people on the dropzone. And there's definitely a difference between the respect (as skydivers) I give to the one-jump-get-bragging-rights SL and tandem people and the regulars who're there nearly every weekend.

In almost every sport, respect regarding the sport is related to how hard ya work at it, how good you are at it, how dedicated you are and how much you contribute to it. Skydiving is not different from what I've seen in my short time in the sport.

I'm not alone in thinking this way, I've observed the same pattern of thought in many of the regulars at my home DZ. Tandem pax and one jump thrillseekers aren't treated as equals in the sport - and for good reasons. How can one equate a tandem pax to someone who's been in the sport for 15+ years, made thousands of jumps, been busted up making mistakes, seen friends go in - and still have kept jumping? That seems to me to be a ridiculous proposition.

Quite frankly, I cannot see the need for a mainstreaming of the sport. I don't see a need for big sponsor money and big interest from the media. As long as the financial basis (i.e the one jump people) come in large enough quantities to support small Cessna DZs, the sport ain't going away.

Having only Cessna DZs would obviously not be good for the further development of the sport - which is pushed on by the really active participants and more or less requires turbine aircraft. But the current decline is just a natural result of the increase in prices and the general economic situation IMHO.