sburkart 0 #26 July 16, 2006 QuoteIt used to be you had to spend the whole day at the DZ going through class. You got to spend more time with the DZ crowd and people in your class so you felt more like part of a group. You made your 5 SL jumps and then gradually worked your way up to higher altitudes so you had a goal to work for with several milestones along the way. I think the sense of accomplishment was greater. With tandems we take them to the top of the moutain on the first ride and everything is done for them. It has become a very expensive roller coaster ride. A guy at work asked me to take him to my home DZ so he could do a skydive, but "I don't want to do no tandem." Fine, I'll check that out for you... This morning I learned that my DZ will not do anything BUT tandems for first-timers (or second or third-timers) for "safety reasons." Pbbbbtt. I called the DZ closer to us (not my fav) and they are more than happy to put this guy thru class starting at 8 AM and put him out with two jumpmasters that same afternoon. Hmmm... Besides not wanting to jump "with some guy on my back," I believe my co-worker understands a tandem is not as much of a skydiving experience as some would like him to think, and he wants the responsibilty of flying the canopy and landing on his own. As a 12 jump wonder I should let others editorialize on this, and I sure don't want to offend anyone at my big-time big-bird full service totally rockin' home DZ, but it can't hurt to put a second one in here: Pbbbbtt! You guys are letting that so-called tandem-mill across the river show you up for "safety reasons." WTF are waivers for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #27 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt's time for the USPA and the dropzones to admit that this coaching thing is not working and take steps to change it.USPA already took the first step by making it so D-licence jumper can jump with the newbies but as long as the DZOs are protecting their staff by forcing students to jump with coaches I think you will continue to see the numbers fall. Go through the list of USPA Directors. How many are DZO’s or an obvious reprehensive of a DZO? To a large part, DZO’s are USPA. Where do you think that leaves the average weekend jumper? Without representation. Your right. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #28 July 17, 2006 QuoteWhile I do believe that cost is an issue I see the bigger issue being how we are treating the newbies .Hundred jump wonders getting their jumps paid for so they can "coach" someone is raping our sport one jump at a time.If cost is an issue then the newbies damn sure can't afford to have to pay someone to jump with them.It's time for the USPA and the dropzones to admit that this coaching thing is not working and take steps to change it.USPA already took the first step by making it so D-licence jumper can jump with the newbies but as long as the DZOs are protecting their staff by forcing students to jump with coaches I think you will continue to see the numbers fall.On top of cost you have the whole social side of this.The newbies are not jumping with new people so they are not making new friends.They are segregated from the general population so to speak. . As a newbie I'll have to agree with Spence on this one... expense is an issue, but if it's something you really want you can always find a way to afford it. But once you have your A you're basically on your own... I don't know how it is everywhere but the 2 dz's I've jumped at were pretty much the same... if you're new and unknown you're basically on your own unless you can afford (and find) a coach to jump with you...The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #29 July 17, 2006 You have a license, so the only thing preventing you from having people to jump with is YOU. I know that may sound harsh, but it's reality. It's up to you to get to know the fun jumpers and make sure they know you. I'm not a complete social misfit, but I'm not the most outgoing person, either. Somehow, I've managed. Of course, it's nice when someone walks up and introduces themselves and offers to jump with you, but it can be rare at some busy DZ's. Not because the locals are a bunch of snobs, but because there are so many students (tandem, AFF, coaching) hanging around who are just there to learn or train and visiting jumpers who have their own jump partners, that the locals may not pick up on you right away. I love jumping with new friends, but I am usually on one "mission" or another while I'm at the DZ. Sometimes I notice someone jumping alone and introduce myself, sometimes I don't notice. Your profile says you are in Florida, so if you're ever at Skydive DeLand and see a "voluptuous," sunburned, blonde girl with an OD rig, that's me. Come say hi! I'm a "weekend warrior" and not all that good, but I can show you what NOT to do. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #30 July 17, 2006 It does seem like this sport is definitely fading or at least in major downswing. Tandem Mills are a major contributor in my opinion. Tandems are seen as a one time Amusement ride. Very little if any effort at all is spent trying to retain the tandems an convert them to an AFF program. It is the Churn em and Burn em attitude of many DZ`s that is really failing to bring all these potential new Jumpers into the sport. "Get em in, Get em out, Next!!" is the attitude I see at alot of places. EVERY SINGLE TANDEM is a Potential new jumper and should be treated as such. I have thought about working with my DZO to develop an "Introduction to Skydiving" Class/Presentation for all Tandems. Offer the Class/Presentation at 9:00am and Noon for all tandem for that day. After the Tandems are waivered, Have them sit through a 5 to 10 minute sales pitch that shows what Skydiving has to offer beyond that 1 Tandem. Then go into their Tandem Training/Briefing. I believe that this would increase the number of returning customers considerably. Also I think upjumpers should take a few minutes out of their day to greet the new Tandems and/or Students and make sure they feel welcome. Make an effort to encourage them to return. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontPanic 0 #31 July 17, 2006 QuoteBut once you have your A you're basically on your own... I don't know how it is everywhere but the 2 dz's I've jumped at were pretty much the same... if you're new and unknown you're basically on your own unless you can afford (and find) a coach to jump with you... I guess I'm lucky. My home DZ was never like this. One of the things that really sucked me into this sport was the people at my DZ who were asking me to jump with them when I was getting started. It makes a big difference in getting you to keep coming back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #32 July 17, 2006 At a DZ that i frenquent they take pictures of all of their AFF grads.I counted the pics for last year and this year through the month of July and the numbers for this year are nearly half.The number of grads that are still jumping on a regular basis is about 10% maybe. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #33 July 17, 2006 Maybe we would have more jumpers if we made it more affordable. How about not charging $50 to learn to pack? I know for a fact that I would not have started jumping if I had to pay $1100+ for SEVEN AFF jumps, then another $20 a jump plus rental gear fees for another $810 to get close to a class A license, and then no one wants to jump with you because you're not "experienced". I know everyone swears by AFF but I got my class A license for $730 via static line (yes, all 25 jumps (several 2, 3 and 4 ways included), gear rental, coaching/instruction, and several jumps video'd and burned on a disc for me). I didn't have to pay somone to teach me to pack, I didn't have to pay someone to jump with me, and I didn't have to pay someone to tell me what I was doing wrong and how to correct it. In return, I'll be the first one in line to pack student rigs when the FTJ'ers land, I'll sweep/vacuum the clubhouse, I'll help with manifest and when the time comes, I'll be paying my jump ticket to jump with students and help them learn. I think we need to have a more Pay It Forward attitude. It makes me cringe when I see posts on here where people state that they just finished AFF and no one will jump with them or they still have to pay for someone to jump with them. Experienced jumpers need to invest time with newbies, because eventually they'll become the experienced jumpers, remember what was done for them, and pay it forward. If newbies can't get better because it's too expensive for them to get anywhere, yes, our sport is going to die and we can forget about breaking any more world records because there won't be enough experienced jumpers around. Sorry if this comes off harsh, it's just frustrating and sad. JM2cents... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buried 0 #34 July 17, 2006 could always see if you could borrow gear from a friend that would be jumping similar things to what you are now.. Quoteand the SIM was $30 I dont see why people buy these.. you can d/l it for free Where is my fizzy-lifting drink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #35 July 17, 2006 QuoteI know for a fact that I would not have started jumping if I had to pay $1100+ for SEVEN AFF jumps, then another $20 a jump plus rental gear fees for another $810 to get close to a class A license 10 years ago 7 levels + ground school AFF cost me over $1200. $1100 is a bargin! I paid $20 in gear rental for each jump 10 years ago also until I got my own gear. QuoteI know everyone swears by AFF but I got my class A license for $730 via static line (yes, all 25 jumps (several 2, 3 and 4 ways included), gear rental, coaching/instruction, and several jumps video'd and burned on a disc for me) What altitude did you get when you were "cleared". jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #36 July 17, 2006 Quote What altitude did you get when you were "cleared". j I did 5 static line jumps, two 5 second delays, two 10's and a 20 and then the rest were from 10,000ft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #37 July 17, 2006 Well said and one of the reasons I like SL. Most places do not nickel and dime SL students. They do it for love of the sport, not money. I still think that way and I am an AFF I."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #38 July 17, 2006 Only places going to 10k for the most part are Cessna DZ's. Go to 13k and the costs go up on all counts. Current jump tickets in the area are $18 to go to 10k in a 182 or $22 in an Otter. $5*25 student jumps is another $125 in just raw costs.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #39 July 17, 2006 Good Gawd! $3000 to get to an A-License!! I'm glad I came up a long time ago when it was about $1200 for me to get off of student-status and my fir... err... initial rig only cost me $3000 for a new container, new main, new reserve... AADs weren't all the rage then... Ms.A, you may want to run the numbers on some other SoCal DZ's, I'd be interested to know if they're all that expensive. Anyway, the sport getting more expensive is definitly a reason why a lot of people don't get into it. It always has been and probably always will. The illusion that DZOs actually make money off of us up-jumpers is basically un-true... the profit margin on them selling us jumptickets can't be more then a few bucks each... the profit margin they make from us / they probably make more from us at the gee-dunk and selling us googles, rubber bands, gloves, etc. then on jumptickets. I'd sure like to go back to the days when I started and only paid $16 for a ride to altitude when I got off student status and had my own rig... other, older-timers, will probably quote prices cheaper, but either way, its probably not going to happen anytime soon... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #40 July 17, 2006 Another CONTROLLABLE cost increase has come from the "Coach" rating and expectation that Students have to continue paying up to $80 to $100 per Jump ($23 Jumper Slot, $23 Coaches Slot, $20 Coach Fee, $6 Pack Job for Coaches Rig, $25 Gear Rental Fee = $97 per JUMP!!) AFTER completing AFF just to be able to jump with someone. When I graduated AFF, There were plenty of qualified jumpers ready to take me up teach. They wouldn’t even let me cover their slots. So what used to be after 8 expensive Jumps and then all jumps would be around $20 plus gear rental, Its now 8 Expensive Jumps followed by even more expensive jumps. At some point the average Joe\Jane says.. It just cost too much to get started. Better to just do a Tandem and go home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buried 0 #41 July 17, 2006 yeah but like most sports there is a buy in cost to it. people can pay 1k$ for clubs in Golfing and then maybe some coaching.. plus can be 100$ just for tee off 18 holes. other things come to mind are boating, jet sking, snow mobiling, skiing, etc all have some form of buy in cost and maintenance. skydiving just seems to be a little higher Where is my fizzy-lifting drink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #42 July 17, 2006 Agreed. All recreational activities can cost alot of money. Skydiving is definitely at the Higher end of the spectrum. I was just pointing out that the creation of the Coach rating and the cost of "Coach" Jumps is something that didn’t really exist just a few years ago. It is an added cost to getting started that may or may not have any real value (depending on who the coach is) and I am absolutely not convinced that the “Mentor” method was not more effective in keeping resent AFF grads in the sport. The cost of Minimum an "A" License has gone up considerably now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #43 July 17, 2006 Sure they did, they where just in a different package. Years ago begore the A card you had to have an Instructor or jump master fill out your A licence application for you. Not all the requirements were knocked out in the 7 AFF's and you had to pay for an I or JM to come along. At least now you don't have 100 jump people actually dispatching new jumpers on an IAD or SL jump like you did just a few years ago.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #44 July 17, 2006 Although I hope its not $97 across the board at all DZs for someone that's just completed AFF to get some coaching, you bring up a valid point... I too have brought up the point that in the last 10 years or so it seems "the sport", DZOs, USPA, some jumpmasters... not sure which, so please insert whom ever / what ever you think correct... have tried to "squeeze just a little more money" out of folks getting into the sport. However, look at it from another point of view... when I got into the sport just 13 years ago, it was 9 or 12 jumps to get "cleared to jumpmaster oneself" but then you needed 20 jumps to get your A-License. This was "grey area" that was discussed a lot back then; what to with these jumpers that some would say are still students, but didn't need to be under the direct supervision of a (as defined then) jumpmaster or instructor. The discussions ranged from how not to loose folks from the sport at this point, to whether or not it was a good thing some folks were rippin' through a 9 or 12 jump program at a big DZ in 2 or 3 days, to the "fatal forties"; remember that?? At the DZ I came up at, this time was filled with a couple of "no pressure jumps" where you would still rent a student rig (rip-cord) and go up and basically do a solo, bore a hole in the sky, be no kiddin' open and in the saddle by 3.5 and navigate oneself back to the student landing area and land without being on a radio... a not so bad thing to do and a great confidence builder IMO. Then you'd do a gear transition where a jumpmaster would train you up on a two handled system and go up and jump with you. After that, you were set-loose upon the DZ to go rent gear from the gear store across the way and make one's way in the world... which usually meant deciding on what gear to buy while you rented from them and going up to manifest and asking them to ask on the PA if there was anyone who wanted to go do a 2-Way with a low-timer and show them some stuff (kidding aside, fact is if you were a gal, this was easier for you then if you were a guy). Anyway, this is how one progressed through that grey area the the DZ I learned at... not all that bad IMO, but maybe not as good as it could be; I mean, certainly some room for things to be hit or miss. I'm sure other DZs did better or worse jobs, but like I said, it was a topic of discussion in those days. So, some enterprising jumpers came up with Skydive University, remember that... don't get me wrong, great idea to take low-time jumpers and hook them up with "coaches" to go train them up on RW skills one-on-one right out of the gate... and get paid for it too. Then USPA came along with the 20-Jump program... and what is it now, a 25-Jump program (I admit it, I'm guilty of not reading the SIM here lately)... to get low timers all the way to an A-License working with a jumpmaster or a coach. The up side being that gray area of yesteryear being gone, the down side the newbie's of today having to shell out more money to the DZ until they can reach the point of relative independance where they've got a License and their own gear. *sigh* "Nothing is for free" is one of my favorite sayings, as in there's alwasy an up-side and a down-side to every situation. Personally, I don't like seeing low-timers having to continue to shell out bucks to get a coach to jump with them and am willing to "give back" a bit and go jump with them without making them pay me or my slot... however, I'll also admit that I'm not in the mood to always go do that at a moments notice; as in my buddies may be around and we'd like to go do hot 4-way or multi-point 16-way or what-not... ... so, what I'm saying, is its not an easy thing... either you pay up-jumpers to jump with the low-timers so you can expect that there will be coaches there in the wait when the low-timers want to jump, the up-side for them "coaching avialable"; the down-side being they have to shell out more bucks. I think the USPA has maybe backed or loosened up a bit by saying that any D-Licensed skydivere can be a coach... and what is it, the S&TA has to also approve... anyway, as a means of reducing the cost to the low-timer. As in, the D-Licensed jumper to choose to take the low-timer up and jump with them and go over that level's TLOs without getting paid for it and/or picking up their own slot too, but then you get push-back from the other jumpmasters or coaches that DO want to be paid that you're cutting into their "money" by doing it for free and/or the DZ could still charge them and pocket it... I've seen both happen... Anyway, not an easy problem. Again, I'm glad I came up awhiles back where it was less complicated. I got out of student status what I still think is really the objective... how to save one's life... how to deal with emergencies (malfunctions) or unusual situations (line twists, slider half-way up, collapsed end cells, etc.)... and how to navigate oneself under canopy to a landing you'll walk away from... all the rest is gravy; if you wind up staying in the sport, you've got hundreds if not thousands and years more jumping to learn what, again my opinion, the USPA has tried to tack onto the end of the student progression... hey, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying that recognize that even after you normalize it for today's prices, someone getting into the sport today is going to pay more then someone who got into it when I did or before; in short the upside, they get more training beyond the "save your life" essentials, the downside, they spend more money... Pick Your Poision... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #45 July 17, 2006 QuoteI was wondering what each one of you would attribute to "the drop in the the number of skydivers" Free flying. You can put a handful of experienced skydivers in a plane, add a couple people with under 50 jumps each, and make multi-point flat jumps which everyone finds fun and challenging. Put a handful of typical skydivers together with a few hundred jumps for a freefly and the best likely outcome is a safe jump where you can see everybody from exit to break-off. Frustration with the later really limits who gets invited to jump with whom which is a big problem for new skydivers and has to be affecting the attrition rate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #46 July 17, 2006 I've heard several students and novices grumble about lack of interested coaches to help get them to a level where they an jump with others for fun. Dropzones can be a lot like high school. The cool kids stick together and the newbs are left on the outside. I find all of the staff where I jump to be willing and helpful, but then the circumstances aren't always right to get a coach like busy tandem/solo course days or lack of aircraft days . . . If its not one thing its another. I recommend all students and novices spend some ground time on the DZ, get to know the instructors, buy them a freakin' beer, listen to the stories at the bonfire and really get involved in the DZ. So many Newbs just show up at the dropzone unannounced at like 6pm on a Sunday and then get mad and storm off when they've sat there for 3 hours and couldn't get in a plane because of no instructors or slots. You have to take the initiative at a dropzone if you want to progress. Instructors/coaches are not wandering around looking for coach jumps. You need to go to them and give them plenty of notice. You'll get your jumps in, just try committing yourself to the sport a little more. IT PAYS OFF, TRUST ME.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #47 July 17, 2006 Quote...I recommend all students and novices spend some ground time on the DZ, get to know the instructors, buy them a freakin' beer, listen to the stories at the bonfire... * ding ding ding * Hang up the phones!!! We have ourselves a winner!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #48 July 17, 2006 That's not even an ass-kissing . . . I'm completely serious. It worked for me. I mean, these people see new faces come and go every weekend by the dozens. The percentage of people who actually are serious about sticking to the sport is so low (hence the chat thread), that instructors are wary of spending too much energy on some dumbass who will quit after 5 jumps. (theres plenty of them out there) If you go to them, ask questions, and YES . . . buy beer, you show the instructor that you are not a 5 jump wonder and they will respond . . . unless you've come across "SKY-GOD", but that's a whole other thread . . .You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #49 July 17, 2006 ouch... actually, in seriousness, I was agreeing with you for the reasons you just noted!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #50 July 17, 2006 Quote...I recommend all students and novices spend some ground time on the DZ, get to know the instructors, buy them a freakin' beer, listen to the stories at the bonfire... Second that! And not only will you be more inclined to find someone to devote some time to you, but you'll learn a hell of a lot more than showing up for a jump or two and leaving, or at least I have anyway. For the last 3 1/2 months I've pretty much spent every Fri-Sun at the dz, even one rainy weekend when there was no jumping (which, BTW, is a perfect opportunity to get some of the "book work" signed off of the class A license--much easier to find someone to talk about turbulance and canopy loading when neither of you can jump). But still think everyone could pitch in a hand (including those with class A licenses) and help out costs. I'd like to be on one of those world record jumps someday and would like to see that we would have enough skydivers to do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
