BlakeWeston 0 #1 October 11, 2006 Hello there! A recent encounter in the sky has prompted me to ask this question because at the time I followed an instinct, but afterwards started thinking... After a fairly uneventful [but fast] tube exit, the three of us broke unexpectedly causing us all to smunch one another. I was lucky enough to come out on my belly, and as I checked for the two other skydivers saw both on their backs. One was arching to flip over but the other was not moving, and on their back sinking away from me. My first thought was that they had been knocked unconcious and immediately I made ready to get to them. However, as I did so, they perked up their ideas and flipped over. My question is this, if you suspect that someone is unconcious after a knock, what do you do? 1) give chase and dump them out hoping that they have a normal deployment and not a mal, and that they come round before the ground does. Or, 2) Leave it to their AAD 3) give chase and dump their reserve for them. I have given a lot of thought to this recently and apart from "Don't hit anyone in the sky" haven't come up with a good answer... Any experience/opinion would be gladly accepted. Many Thanks, Blake Always, always pay your Packer... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 185 #2 October 11, 2006 I vote for firing the reserve. Not everyone has an AAD, and counting on it is a generally bad plan. Proactive is better. A reserve is packed to open with a less optimal body position than is the main (in general). In addition, getting them under a 2:1 loaded main if they are unconscious does not improve their likelihood of survival enough for my taste. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #3 October 11, 2006 Catching them would be a very, very, very tall order. And there is a good chance that if you are not altitude aware, you turn this into a dual fatality.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #4 October 11, 2006 QuoteCatching them would be a very, very, very tall order. And there is a good chance that if you are not altitude aware, you turn this into a dual fatality. Exactly... I don't think I've heard of but one freefall save, and there have been other failed attempts, most notably the Sandy Wambach death, where two guys tried to get to her but ultimately had to save themselves, and she didn't have an aad. It's extremely difficult, and only certain conditions would allow an attempt to be made. However, if something happened to me and I didn't have an aad, I would prefer that a very experienced jumper with instructor and/or jumpmaster ratings make an attempt, not someone with less than 500 jumps, for example. I would not want them to die trying to save me."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #5 October 11, 2006 QuoteCatching them would be a very, very, very tall order. And there is a good chance that if you are not altitude aware, you turn this into a dual fatality. Depends on the situation but yeah. If it happened on exit I would do my best to chase the person for awhile, but giving up at a reasonable altitude seems like a good idea to me. I would feel pretty shitty if it happened at 12k and I just watched them fall away from me to thier death for that long. I think my overall skill level gives me a marginal to reasonable chance at catching someone given an entire skydive. Would have to try it to find out.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #6 October 11, 2006 QuoteExactly... I don't think I've heard of but one freefall save, Chris Lyall. Saved a parachuting member of a middle Eastern military group (UAE?) after a freefall collision. Can't find any online reference though!Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 54 #7 October 11, 2006 Billvon saved someone, too. And Greg Robertson (sp?). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #8 October 11, 2006 >if you suspect that someone is unconcious after a knock, what do you do? Realistically wait for their AAD to fire (and hope they have one!) I once dumped someone's reserve on a 4-way who just plain lost it. She didn't pass out; she tried to pull, flipped on her back, tried to pull again and just gave up. I flew over to her, looked at her, saw there was no one home, and dumped her reserve. This all happened between about 6000 feet and 3000 feet, so I had a little time to deal with it. I was able to do this because: 1) I had some warning; I knew she was the lower experienced person on the jump and was watching her (and going after her before I even knew she was going to flake out) 2) We had compatible fallrates. She was a tiny woman in a sit, which is normally pretty fast. But her size kept her speed down. 3) I had done about 1000 AFF's at that point, and thus was used to catching wayward students (and pulling for them.) If you are lacking any of those components it becomes a lot more difficult. If you have the time, it might be worth a try. But: a) NEVER EVER get above or below such a person. They can 'come to' and dump immediately. b) NEVER EVER pass your hard deck chasing someone else, even if you're close. Think about how much it would suck to be _almost_ there at 3000 feet, finally get there, turn them around, then pull their main PC just as both your reserves deploy from cypres fires. c) Don't try to go below breakoff altitude chasing someone unless you have experience (like AFF or video experience) being next to someone as they deploy (or as you deploy them.) d) Panicky AFF candidates can (and have) collided with evaluators hard enough to stun them. Don't make the problem worse. All in all, if you've never done it before, and you know they have an AAD, the AAD is probably their best option. That way they have the maximum possible time to regain their wits, there's little chance of an additional collision, and the incident has less chance of becoming a double incident (or fatality.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #9 October 11, 2006 Some years ago there was a triple fatality in volving a camera man who tried to save a tandem. You have no friends below 2500'.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdrenalineBluez 0 #10 October 11, 2006 Try to get anything I can over their head until 2k. However, at my skill level this is unlikely... I have seen enough AFF video of flailing students to know that it takes a skill I don't currently possess to pull off a manuever like that... "I have no friends below 2k" It sounds cruel but facts are facts and a hard deck is a hard deck... So to answer the question. I hope they have an AAD... "Uh oh! This is gonna hurt!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #11 October 12, 2006 Is this flat flying with a tube? .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #12 October 12, 2006 No friends under 1500. Hard deck cant be 2 k for me as hop'n'pops are known to be 2k. Though i would always like to pull before 2500, if i ever found myself in the unfortunate position of someone needing to be chased, i have always thought that if i was super close and controlled at 2 K i would go to 1500 trying to help but about 1700 that hand will be ripping the reserve handle out of its pocket while stable at no less than 1500. I hope nobody i jump with is ever in that situation. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #13 October 12, 2006 QuoteIs this flat flying with a tube? I assume he means the kind of tube where each person takes the other ones ankles and you roll out the door. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #14 October 12, 2006 Quote Exactly... I don't think I've heard of but one freefall save, and there have been other failed attempts, ... Bruno Brokken did it, years ago (pre-cypres era). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #15 October 12, 2006 Oh, the reason i asked cause i was not sure if you could jump tubes in the uk. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #16 October 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteExactly... I don't think I've heard of but one freefall save, Chris Lyall. Saved a parachuting member of a middle Eastern military group (UAE?) after a freefall collision. Can't find any online reference though! Also Andy Peckett, a British ex-pat I believe, was named Skydiver of the Year 1993 for saving an unconcious Maurizio Brambilla in mid-air over Vichy in France on August 11th 1993. From http://www.citybeat.com/archives/1996/issue237/dailybred1.html Quotewhat put Peckett on the map and into the history books was a fateful jump on August 11 with 16 other jumpers at a Boogie-a skydiving festival-in France. One of the divers, Maurizio Brambilla, whacked his chin on the exit ramp of the C130 cargo transport plane, rendering him instantly unconscious. Not exactly the ideal time for that to happen because there have only been a handful of successful mid-air rescues in the history of skydiving. Although the jumpers were 15,000 feet in the air, nobody really caught what had happened. "I looked below and saw this violently spinning body," he recalls. Peckett began a rapid descent, reaching an estimated speed of 200 miles an hour, yanking the secondary rip cord moments before both men would impact the earth with a rather unpleasant THUD! Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #17 October 12, 2006 QuoteCatching them would be a very, very, very tall order. And there is a good chance that if you are not altitude aware, you turn this into a dual fatality. I kinda like tall orders. I'd give it a swing if I noticed it. If I got to them, I'd fire the reserve. I'd try not to die and would quit at 2, just as I would for AFF. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #18 October 12, 2006 I was once in the situation to follow someone down after he had a freefall colision short after exit. He was spinning on his back. I first tried to get to him but he was spinning very fast and I could not get to close to him so I stayed about 30 feet horizontal away from him. I opend up at around 1500 feet because I did not want to loos him. His cypress fired at around 1000 to 800 feet. Everthing went fine but I learned that I could not do much during the freefall to help him. Cypress is your friend!!!Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #19 October 12, 2006 QuoteI was once in the situation to follow someone down ...!was that in Switzerland ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #20 October 12, 2006 No, it was in Mexico. One guy was high in a tracking dive and wanted to catch up and went almost head down. The one that got hit broke his leg and opend up right away and the other one was the one I followed down. Cypress saved his live.Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John4455 0 #21 October 12, 2006 I have been unconcious in freefall before. It really sucks let me tell ya. Four way belly fun jump, exit funneled and another jumper who wound up higher than the rest of us decided he would get down to the formation by going into a sit. He impacted me in the back of the head. I was only out for a few seconds, but when I came too I was on my back and spinning out of control. It was all I could do to flip over and stop the spin. Finally got stable and my buddy docked on me. Managed a lazy track and dumped. Never once knew my altitude till I heard my ditter, even though I remember looking at my altimeter, it just wasn't registering. Doctor said I had a concussion. I did everything right. Hard helmut, cypress, ditter...... How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #22 October 12, 2006 QuoteI don't think I've heard of but one freefall save... Here's another: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1060082 There is even a beer advertisement (attached) that derived from the incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD10834 0 #23 October 12, 2006 No shit, there I was.... on the ground watching this unfold...thinking it was a couple of goofs trying to do RW after break-off. I remember seeing her slowly spiral down and thinking something wasn't right. As I recall, she hit a hanger or something which contributed to her injuries, and I'm pretty sure she was unconscious for the ride. I never met the guy, but there's no doubt she would have bounced if not for him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlakeWeston 0 #24 October 12, 2006 Wow, there is some serious advice here...! Thank you all for taking the time to think and answer, the reality of it was that the collision happened at about 9K, I'm pretty sure that I do not have the ability to catch and unconcious person, but I don't think I could sleep if I didn't TRY. I do agree very much so with the Hard deck, though, for my ability i think mine is closer to 3k. After that, it's up to the AAD. Thank you all, happy flying. Blake Always, always pay your Packer... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlakeWeston 0 #25 October 12, 2006 We can jump tubes in England, just depends on the cloud/rain/wind/industrial haze/CCI/plane/ and anything else that stops jumping!! Always, always pay your Packer... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
