Aircraft vs. 4-way teams

[Zenister 0]

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With windtunnels popping up quicker then my lawn grows, at what point does competitive skydiving become so specialized and so regimented that only those that can afford to do nothing but put in 2000 jumps for specific training and another 20+ hours in a tunnel training with a coach become obsolete?

very quickly...

the primary difficulty in skydiving isnt the activity itself, its the limited amount of time to recognize, correct and retrain errors and faults.

in any other sport, even the casual amateur has more actual hours training, practicing and drilling the specific skills (and generally in the exact same environment, if not with the same pressures) they will compete in than most (many) professional skydivers have, even at the highest level.. This is one of the reasons (until the advent of easily accessible windtunnel) visualization was(still is for those who lack the aforementioned resources) such a key factor in training..

someone with 2000 jumps and 20hours in a tunnel honing the SPECIFIC skills in the exact environment they will be using has a HUGE advantage over anyone who does 10-20 practice jumps a week..

this sort of focused training is exactly why the military has moved more and more to simulations and easily resetable exercises. Where you can fight the same battle 10-20 times in a single day. Improving performance, improvising new techniques and correcting obvious errors in a more immediate fashion that has a direct effect on the capabilities of those being trained..

200 hours is alot of Freefall time and skydiving experience... but its only a few weeks of 8 hour training days in any other sport...

However, the need for focuses, specialized training to remain competitive DOESNT give anyone a license to be an asshole to those who are not following the same path...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Deuce 1]

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A fellow camera flyer, a really good friend, actually my initial camera flying mentor, is very lucky to be alive. He struck the horizontal stabilizer during an exit.

Blaming the aircraft for that is a mistake.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, JP, but when you are holding on to the bar with your right hand, right toe on the step and left foot trailing along the fuselage to get enough separation to get the exit and the f*cking thing stalls left and down and you hit the horizontal stabilizer, it's the plane/pilot/suitability for chunks outside the door..

I've filmed RW out of everything at Eloy and Perris and some planes are just more suited to it than others.

We just started flying a PAC at Byron. If it's what you've got, you'll find a way. Watching me huck a tandem out of the thing is hilarious, but it's actually easier to do AFF than the Kingair cause there's more bars for the student to grab on to.

The problem with RW competition is that the competition is out of Otters (usually). If you are just jumping to participate, that's no problem. If your team wants to be on the podium, you have to practice out of otters. Teams with money can do randoms and blocks in the tunnel all day long, but the winning points are going to be on the hill, and that's important for both the flyers and the videographer.

And the 99 just hauls ass on jump run. Linked exits are hard. I'll show you some neato video of a linked exit out of the 99 where when the wind caught the team, all their feet touched before they blocked it back out and started turning.

Hey, in 10 years we'll be doing all our competitions out of PACS. It will mean physically smaller teams will do better and we'll probably really change door jams.

It'll be neat, and it will still be fun.

Edit: I have ton (50?) of competition training jumps out of the 99. It's big, comfortable, astoundingly fast to altitude and has a super-big-assed almost Otter sized door. There is a step below the door, like a PAC and a bar along the top of the outside of the door. I'm pretty sure it has an inside bar too.

Problems? It's fast on jump run. Like a King Air with the flaps up. It seems the solution to slowing things down as much as possible while minimizing stall potential is to put it into a very shallow dive on jump run. You get used to it.

There is no camera step, and I don't know if I'd want to be any closer to that horizontal stabilizer anyhow. My solution for this is to grab the little stub of the pole above the door, extend my right arm completely, and get my right toe on the step and put my left foot as back towards the fuselage as possible. When they go I open everything I've got, wings, booties, hands, funny faces, everything. If they get into that relative wind while you are in their burble you get to say hi and exchange some paint.

It is doable, though. My team calls it "weight training for Otter exits"

JP, you know I've got over a 1000 King Air camera jumps, somehow that 99 stabilizer just seems closer and lower. Like I said, though, it's a nice plane and would be easy to adapt to competition. Exits are tougher, but we're a tough breed!

Argh!

[nitrox100 0]

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but I still like the idea of a mystery plane for Nationals, it might make it more interesting to watch instead of the same or about the same outcome every year.

So since Nationals is USPA's big event, carrying that same logic to the PGA would have the US Open require that you get a set of mystery clubs at the first hole.

Also, no use of the driving range ever...that would be just as unfair as a wind tunnel to practice in.

[AggieDave 6]

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Also, no use of the driving range ever...that would be just as unfair as a wind tunnel to practice in.

I'd believe that analogy if there were only 4 good driving ranges in the US and you had to spend $1000 to practice for a day.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[popsjumper 2]

So...everybody trains out of an Otter and they get "hosed" with a Beech 99.

So what?!

All the teams are facing the same "obstacle" and nobody has an advantage yet some whine and refuse to jump the 99. Has 4-way really become that elitist?

What's next, different classes?
4-way Otter comp
4-way Beech99 comp
4-way KA comp

Sorry to hear about all this...kinda detracts from the respect for their skills.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[PhreeZone 20]

Yes.. all 4 way jumpers will refuse to jump an airplane if its not the exact airplane that will be used at nationals, not the same type... SAME plane.

In reguards to the original post I think I am the only person in this entire thread that was present when the decision was made by the teams in question. There was a lot of effort made to use the plane but it was determined that it just was not going to work because of many factors.

There are LOTS of 4 way teams that jump planes other then Otters but most of them also include a trip to an Otter for exit practice since it is such an important part of 4 way skydiving. I was on a team that drove 10 hours for Otters and fast turn arounds last year. In the NSL there are meets occuring across the country at the same time. Most are done out of an Otter, very few are done out of other airplanes. DZ's usually will announce in advance to the teams what airplane they have so they know what to expect.Those other planes are a disadvantage for those jumpers that have never jumped it before and their scores will suffer until they adjust for it. Placement in the NSL determines the invites the the NSL championships which actually has some prizes associated with it unlike Nationals.

I wonder the competition experience of all the people in this thread that are complaing about somethng that in no way shape or form affected them.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kallend 1,936]

If the plane is such a big unfair influence, change the rules to eliminate it. Start the working time 5 seconds AFTER exit, or require no-grip freeflown exits.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[popsjumper 2]

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...Placement in the NSL determines the invites the the NSL championships which actually has some prizes associated with it unlike Nationals.

Direct Qualification:
Top ten teams across the nation in the NSL leagues.
Wild Cards:
State League champions that are not in the top ten across the nation.

This was a state league competition, I believe? Direct qualification may have been affected but not the wild card level. Were both teams in the running for the direct qualification?

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I wonder the competition experience of all the people in this thread that are complaing about somethng that in no way shape or form affected them.

Well, some of us support those who were directly affected at the DZ in question and would support those affected at other DZs when it happens to them.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jlmiracle 7]

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So since Nationals is USPA's big event, carrying that same logic to the PGA would have the US Open require that you get a set of mystery clubs at the first hole.

Also, no use of the driving range ever...that would be just as unfair as a wind tunnel to practice in.

shaking my head
I can't believe you would compare GOLF to skydiving.

I think an unknown plane would make it more interesting and seperate the men from the boys, the woman from the girls.



j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[PhreeZone 20]

Issue is that you need a fleet of at least 5 identical planes that the host DZ has access too to be able to fly 4 way in a reasonable amount of time. The host would have to make arrangements months in advance and the local teams now have an advantage.

I was wondering if when Lake Wales had the Nationals if it would be out of CSS's CASA's and that idea went over like a lead balloon since ther eare only about 9-10 tailgates in the entire country to practice from. (4*CSS, 1 at the time at Eloy, Deland, Perris, Crosskeys, 1 in NE annually and I think somewhere else too). That would have steeply stacked the odds in the favor of the teams that had access to one of those planes.

I still do not know why people are arguing about this since it in no way affects them at all

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,925]

>at what point does competitive skydiving become so specialized and so
>regimented that only those that can afford to do nothing but put in 2000
>jumps for specific training and another 20+ hours in a tunnel training with
>a coach become obsolete

I don't get this. In 1991, when I started skydiving, I never had a chance to beat Airspeed, even though they were training without tunnels. Today, I have a player-coach, we use a wind tunnel, we make hundreds of jumps as a team - and we still don't have a chance of beating Airspeed. Never really will. So for me, not much has changed.

Are there really 4 way teams out there who wouldn't jump if they felt like they couldn't beat the best team out there?

[jlmiracle 7]

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Are there really 4 way teams out there who wouldn't jump if they felt like they couldn't beat the best team out there?

probably, and there are 4-way teams that won't even TRY to jump from something other than an otter.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AMax 0]

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If the plane is such a big unfair influence, change the rules to eliminate it. Start the working time 5 seconds AFTER exit, or require no-grip freeflown exits.

Both ideas are great! Why don't you pass them to IPC?

[Ron 10]

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So...everybody trains out of an Otter and they get "hosed" with a Beech 99.

So what?!

All the teams are facing the same "obstacle" and nobody has an advantage yet some whine and refuse to jump the 99

You miss the point that the NSL is NATIONAL and you compete against people from all over the US. Making one meet jump a plane that no other meet is, AND a plane that really is not considered at "comp" plane ever is kinda stacking the odds against the teams that have to use the 99. Also, competition RULES state that jump speed is 85-90 knots and the 99 has a jump speed of over 100 knots.

It is asking the teams to do something they have never done, at a different airspeed than they have used at a meet where they are competing with people all over the US.

Lets not forget that the teams were told they would have a caravan and then got screwed.

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Has 4-way really become that elitist?

No offense, but have you ever trained 4way? I have. I think the teams had the right to get upset. They were told they would have a caravan and then they got a plane that is honestly different enough that they didn't want to jump it in a meet.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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If the plane is such a big unfair influence, change the rules to eliminate it. Start the working time 5 seconds AFTER exit, or require no-grip freeflown exits.

Been thought about. Didn't go over very well. The teams LIKE the exits.

What else would we change? Not let teams near a tunnel do more than 5 hours?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I think an unknown plane would make it more interesting and seperate the men from the boys, the woman from the girls.

Judy....I disagree with you 100%

It think it would be a fun idea for a fun meet, but not Nationals. People like you may not take the Nationals seriously, but some do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[quade 4]

Adding to Ron's post. Not directed at Ron (because I actually think he's right here) but to the people HE is addressing.

It is hilarious to me that people seem to think there is nothing on the line at a Nationals and that planes can be changed on a whim and it would be just "fine".

At the Nationals in Lake Wales . . . nice fleet of aircraft but one was significantly different when compared to the others as far as camera handle and step placement.

It is ABSOLUTELY legitimate to say that this changed who won and who lost the Open Class Gold that year. ABSOLUTELY. No question in my mind whatsoever.

Screwing around with jump planes during the Nationals is simply out of the question. The ENTIRE reason for even holding the Nationals is to select who is going to represent the USA at the International level. It's a serious thing and there actually are people's livelihoods at stake.

A small, regional competition with only two teams showing up? Meh...deal with it.

Nationals? Are you guys nuts? You don't screw around with stuff like that. It's disrespectful to the entire sport. If the sport is to ever be taken seriously . . . you can't just change the playing field on a whim.

Imagine the 100-yard dash at the Olympics. The facility is going to provide the starting blocks . . . no two are alike, no two have the same settings, the runners don't get to choose them and they don't know which blocks they'll be using until they walk up to the starting line.

Ya think that would work?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Reginald 0]

I can’t believe I’m wasting precious seconds of my life, which I will never get back, reading this thread. Some experienced skydivers that obviously have never done a single round of 4 way are making patently ridiculous comments. I believe I’d learn more from watching Wile E. Coyote base jump with an Acme parachute than I am by reading this thread. Why if I had anything better to do at work than surf the net...

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[kallend 1,936]

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I can’t believe I’m wasting precious seconds of my life, which I will never get back, reading this thread. Some experienced skydivers that obviously have never done a single round of 4 way are making patently ridiculous comments. I believe I’d learn more from watching Wile E. Coyote base jump with an Acme parachute than I am by reading this thread. Why if I had anything better to do at work than surf the net...

Wasted even more time typing that response, didn't you?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,936]

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If the plane is such a big unfair influence, change the rules to eliminate it. Start the working time 5 seconds AFTER exit, or require no-grip freeflown exits.

Been thought about. Didn't go over very well. The teams LIKE the exits.

What else would we change? Not let teams near a tunnel do more than 5 hours?

Apparently they only LIKE exits from planes they are familiar with.

Quade is right about camera steps and handles - hardly any two Otters are alike, and some set-ups are just bloody awful.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,925]

>and there are 4-way teams that won't even TRY to jump
>from something other than an otter.

I'm on a 4-way team. And while I will jump from anything, it's not all that useful to learn exits from a Skyvan - because we will never use one in competition. There's a lot to exits, and you only have so much time and money available to learn them.

[Ron 10]

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Apparently they only LIKE exits from planes they are familiar with.

How would you like to do a 100 way. You show up and insted of the otters and skyvans they have King Airs and DC-3's?

You *could* still do it, and the good folks would be able to pull it off. But it is not the same as an aircraft that is better suited for bigways.

Look, I have said *I* would still have done the meet. However I also understtand being pissed when you are told one plane will be there and it is not even perfect for 4way (My team has to change exits and will not launch a few out of the caravan) but then to show up and find a plane even worse. The 99 has a jump run speed 10-15 knots higher than an otter or caravan. I understand being up set when offered one plane and being given another.

Like I said imagine going to a bigway camp and getting King Airs.

Or imagine going to the Convention and the Jet never showing up....Oh wait, thats happend.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,936]

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Apparently they only LIKE exits from planes they are familiar with.

How would you like to do a 100 way. You show up and insted of the otters and skyvans they have King Airs and DC-3's?

You *could* still do it, and the good folks would be able to pull it off. But it is not the same as an aircraft that is better suited for bigways.

Look, I have said *I* would still have done the meet. However I also understtand being pissed when you are told one plane will be there and it is not even perfect for 4way (My team has to change exits and will not launch a few out of the caravan) but then to show up and find a plane even worse. The 99 has a jump run speed 10-15 knots higher than an otter or caravan. I understand being up set when offered one plane and being given another.

Like I said imagine going to a bigway camp and getting King Airs.

Or imagine going to the Convention and the Jet never showing up....Oh wait, thats happend.

I'm not disagreeing with you, Ron. Just suggesting that if the problem is REAL, there are ways around it. If it's not a real problem then why waste all this bandwidth?

I don't do 4-way any more since I'm an old fart and find it altogether too exhausting.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[popsjumper 2]

Thanks guys...most of my questions were answered between 3-4 people...the only one I didn't get an answer to was the one about these two teams being in the current top 10 or not.

I don't know exactly which teams we are discussing and so far it doesn't really matter.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 10]

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Just suggesting that if the problem is REAL, there are ways around it. If it's not a real problem then why waste all this bandwidth?

Well it can be a problem. But most times it is not an issue. In this case the DZ said they would have a certain plane. When a different plane showed up the teams left. I can't blame the teams even if some other people do.

I would blame the DZ for saying they would have a Caravan and then not delivering. However, I have been around long enough to know that things happen. So, I don't think ill of the DZ. But I can't blame the teams.

Your idea of launching a and then having 5 seconds or so to get ready was tried a few times. To be honest most teams didn't like it. Teams like the exit.

This kind of thing works itself out. Years ago Cessnas were the most popular jump planes and they were the planes at all the meets. Now it is Otters, later it might be the PAC, or something that we don't even know of yet.

I don't think it is a big issue. My only issue so far has been how people jumped all over the team. My point is that just like the Jet at the convention it was the conventions fault for not having the jet, not the skydivers fault for leaving upset.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334