When is someone going to hit a plane in FF again?

[recovercrachead 0]

I just did a jump today. When I stop after my track to wave off and pulled I had a C182 under 100 feet right in front of me. When I was in the saddle we were relative. If I tracked for 3 more seconds I would of hit him. Wish I had video. I'm still shaking.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[adventurechick 0]

Who has hit a plane in freefall?

PMS #449 TPM #80 Muff Brother #3860
SCR #14705 Dirty Sanchez #233

[bigway 4]

Wow, your opening only took 100 feet? Dman that must have hurt

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

There have been a number of jumper/aircraft collisions over the years.

[MotherGoose 0]

I know who almost hit a plane . . . http://www.motion.tv/video/000012eb/ski-diver-almost-collides-with-plane-video.html

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[bigway 4]

Did we ever get told where that was taken?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[tombuch 0]

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I just did a jump today. When I stop after my track to wave off and pulled I had a C182 under 100 feet right in front of me. When I was in the saddle we were relative. If I tracked for 3 more seconds I would of hit him. Wish I had video. I'm still shaking.

Assuming you got out at about 14,000 feet, you probably spent a minute (or less) in freefall. A Cessna 182 travels at about 120 mph. With a bit of math, it would appear that the Cessna was no more than two miles away when you exited the airplane. Why didn't you or somebody else in the jump plane see the Cessna?

Checking for traffic is a critical responsibility of every jumper on every jump. See: http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/tb1.htm .
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[MotherGoose 0]

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Did we ever get told where that was taken?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1183486;sb=post_replies;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[recovercrachead 0]

Tom we had our different opinions in the past. So we probably wont see eye to eye on this. I wasn't spotting first of all. Second I was doing RW so I didn't spend the skydive looking down. My partner tracked the other way. Which you will agree with me on doing a 180 and tracking away for separation. The uppers where cranking today so he could of had a good headwind and was at a distance not to make excuses for my spotter. But those are the facts.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[recovercrachead 0]

I would say my jump was like that to a "T" but I wasn't that close about 50 feet more.

I know who almost hit a plane . . . http://www.motion.tv/...ith-plane-video.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[Samurai136 0]

What direction was the C182 coming from? Was it flying across jump run, or parallel to jump run? How strong were the uppers? How many groups left the plane? what separation? How much time did the first group spend spotting?

Once you start taking those factors into account, the C182 was more than 2 miles away and may have been more than 5 miles away when the first group left. If you can practice spotting a dime that is 30' to 50' away from you in less than 5 seconds you may be able to avoid this situation in the future.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[recovercrachead 0]

The plane was flying across jump run from the opposite side of the plane. He had the wind and was at 2500 feet. Are uppers were going about 50 and were the first group out at 11000. I was in student in C182 so I could only see so much.

The funny thing was it almost look like the c182 I jumped from.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[darkwing 4]

I was tracking, and flared out of my track to avoid hitting a Mooney (small aircraft). The two people tracking on either side of me were scared too. Yes, it was really, really close.

It is not possible to guarantee you will see an on-coming aircraft, even when you are diligent in trying to look for one. Haze and even scattered clouds can make it possible for a hazardous plane to not be visible.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[recovercrachead 0]

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I was tracking, and flared out of my track to avoid hitting a Mooney (small aircraft). The two people tracking on either side of me were scared too. Yes, it was really, really close.

It is not possible to guarantee you will see an on-coming aircraft, even when you are diligent in trying to look for one. Haze and even scattered clouds can make it possible for a hazardous plane to not be visible.

Thank you a realistic jumper. Dont forget those SKYGODS are perfect everytime and are never going to get hurt. Sometimes they forget its not a perfect sport, Shit Happens even if your halfway as good as me.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[Samurai136 0]

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The plane was flying across jump run from the opposite side of the plane. He had the wind and was at 2500 feet. Are uppers were going about 50 and were the first group out at 11000. I was in student in C182 so I could only see so much.

The funny thing was it almost look like the c182 I jumped from.

I think you did the best you could. It sounds like the other C182 may have been blocked by the strut over on the left side. Spotting other aircraft is tough. Even when ATC has told us where the traffic is at; it still takes me 20+ seconds (on occasion) to pick it out.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[porterhouse 0]

Time for the low number jumper to chime in and say something that will get them flamed (man I love it!). So here goes:

Damn guys! I know it's not possible for everyone to be friends with everyone, but damn. This thread got hostile fast. In the words of the great drug addict Rodney King: Can't we all just get along?

Regardless, I'm glad no one got hurt. I've now made myself a target, so fire away!

[AFFI 0]

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Time for the low number jumper to chime in and say something that will get them flamed (man I love it!). So here goes:

Damn guys! I know it's not possible for everyone to be friends with everyone, but damn. This thread got hostile fast. In the words of the great drug addict Rodney King: Can't we all just get along?

Regardless, I'm glad no one got hurt. I've now made myself a target, so fire away!

You are correct sir/madam...

The bickering is what individuals strive for though.

It is also hard to tell from written words what is bickering and what is not. I think people mistake many helpful posting for bickering and they shoot back defensively - thus creating more bickering.

Certs is a breath mint...


-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[bozo 0]

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I just did a jump today. When I stop after my track to wave off and pulled I had a C182 under 100 feet right in front of me. When I was in the saddle we were relative. If I tracked for 3 more seconds I would of hit him. Wish I had video. I'm still shaking.

20 years ago I was first out of a 182 on a four way launched cat. Heels on the step, holding the strut with my left arm. I had spotted.
Just before I got the exit shake I saw an Air Force C-130 on the same heading as we had....a couple thousand feet lower. I got the shake to exit and a shove but refused to let go. The 130 was really moving and he overtook us in seconds. I let go and we all Zed out....but obviously cleared the AF plane. We used to get that a lot jumping in N Las Vegas, right off Nellis AF Base.
As fast as most planes move...as compared to a jump plane...its not always possible to see them, but do your damedest to find em when you spot.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[diverdriver 5]

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I just did a jump today. When I stop after my track to wave off and pulled I had a C182 under 100 feet right in front of me. When I was in the saddle we were relative. If I tracked for 3 more seconds I would of hit him. Wish I had video. I'm still shaking.

A couple of jumpers tried (and thankfully we all failed) to hit my windshield earlier this year as I departed Philadelphia. Since the DZ management has blown me off for further investigation I guess it's just a matter of time.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[JohnMitchell 14]

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With a bit of math, it would appear that the Cessna was no more than two miles away when you exited the airplane. Why didn't you or somebody else in the jump plane see the Cessna?

Checking for traffic is a critical responsibility of every jumper on every jump.

But you can only check out 2 miles in about a 180 degree circle. The plane creates a giant blind spot behind the JM when checking for traffic. Depending on the radar coverage, air traffic control can do a good job of calling traffic to the pilot when on jumprun. I've seen, though, more than one jump pilot who seemed not to heed these traffic calls.

And faster planes require scanning even farther out, up to 4-5 miles. that's stretching the ability of most folks to spot light aircraft against the backdrop of the ground. Radar can be a big help.

[tombuch 0]

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The plane was flying across jump run from the opposite side of the plane. He had the wind and was at 2500 feet. Are uppers were going about 50 and were the first group out at 11000. I was in student in C182 so I could only see so much.

The funny thing was it almost look like the c182 I jumped from.

Ok, lets look at this example again. Both you and the other airplane were in the same basic airmass, but since the uppers were stronger than the winds at 2,500. That should have given you more of an advantage in ground speed than the other airplane. I'm still betting the Cessna was only a couple of miles away when you exited.

I understand that it's tough to see out the windows from the student position in a Cessna 182, but there was also a pilot on board, and at least a couple of other jumpers. Looking for traffic is a shared responsibility. ATC is there to help, but they sometimes get busy and radar coverage at 2,500 feet isn't always so great. Keep in mind that the pilot of the other airplane has a right to be there...it's his airspace too, and we have the responsibility to avoid creating a hazard.

I know even the best jumpers sometimes make mistakes, and we can't ever be at 100 percent effective in spotting traffic, but we can sure try to stack the deck in our favor.

Everybody MUST look for traffic. That's step one.

We shouldn't be jumping in clouds or low visability conditions (see: http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/tb19.htm. That's step two.

Pilots flying near drop zones need to be looking for traffic as well, but too often they don't know there is a drop zone along their flight path. USPA and the FAA need to step up their efforts to get drop zones depicted on digital flight displays, and that's happening, but not as quickly as I would have hoped. Local drop zones also need to reach out to the regional pilot community so they know who and where we are. That's step three, and probably isn't happening at your DZ.

I'm glad you are OK, and that no collision happened, but unless we all really pay attention it is just a matter of time before the industry has another fatal collision.

A couple of years ago when I was S&TA at The Ranch there seemed to be tons of near collisions when we were jumping from the Otters. I started keeping track, and almost all of them involved small airplanes at opening altitude. In just about every case at least one of the 20+ jumpers on board could have, should have, spotted the airplane before exit. It really is our problem and responsibility.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[recovercrachead 0]

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The plane was flying across jump run from the opposite side of the plane. He had the wind and was at 2500 feet. Are uppers were going about 50 and were the first group out at 11000. I was in student in C182 so I could only see so much.

The funny thing was it almost look like the c182 I jumped from.

Ok, lets look at this example again. Both you and the other airplane were in the same basic airmass, but since the uppers were stronger than the winds at 2,500. That should have given you more of an advantage in ground speed than the other airplane. I'm still betting the Cessna was only a couple of miles away when you exited.

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Tom Winds move at different speeds at different directions at different altitude. Its good to know about those winds at loft to be a perfectly safe skydiver. At 3000 feet the winds can be doing 40 still out of another direction while your uppers are 50 from 90' different while your "ground winds" are 10.

I understand that it's tough to see out the windows from the student position in a Cessna 182, but there was also a pilot on board, and at least a couple of other jumpers. Looking for traffic is a shared responsibility. ATC is there to help, but they sometimes get busy and radar coverage at 2,500 feet isn't always so great. Keep in mind that the pilot of the other airplane has a right to be there...it's his airspace too, and we have the responsibility to avoid creating a hazard.

I know even the best jumpers sometimes make mistakes, and we can't ever be at 100 percent effective in spotting traffic, but we can sure try to stack the deck in our favor.

Everybody MUST look for traffic. That's step one.

We shouldn't be jumping in clouds or low visability conditions (see: http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/tb19.htm. That's step two.

From reading the sims there could be safe visability for jumping but enough clouds between 3000-6000 that you can not see traffic like another jumper said which you should know because of the ranch.

Pilots flying near drop zones need to be looking for traffic as well, but too often they don't know there is a drop zone along their flight path. USPA and the FAA need to step up their efforts to get drop zones depicted on digital flight displays, and that's happening, but not as quickly as I would have hoped. Local drop zones also need to reach out to the regional pilot community so they know who and where we are. That's step three, and probably isn't happening at your DZ.

I'm glad you are OK, and that no collision happened, but unless we all really pay attention it is just a matter of time before the industry has another fatal collision.

A couple of years ago when I was S&TA at The Ranch there seemed to be tons of near collisions when we were jumping from the Otters. I started keeping track, and almost all of them involved small airplanes at opening altitude. In just about every case at least one of the 20+ jumpers on board could have, should have, spotted the airplane before exit. It really is our problem and responsibility.
.

Every jump is not going to be text book perfect. Knowledge is power, Yes. Being a text book skydiver is impossible. Thats why you need to keep learning of what I can do better next time. On a lot of my old RW jumps when I was diving once I dock I would check for traffic and then the spot because Im in the back of the plane, I dont know what the spotters seen. It is something I must start doing again.
Once Doing 4 Way with skydiver club on LI with the second generation skydivers with 20 years each experience. They would brake off no higher than 3500. One jump one guy turned and tracked at 5000 and I new something was up because these were the cheapest guys when it came to altitude but that Long Island.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

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[chrismgtis 0]

I personally think it's pretty stupid for any aircraft of any kind to be flying (other than the DZ aircraft taking skydivers up) within a mile of the DZ at all.

I know DZs also have small aircraft they take up, but hopefully they know better than to go anywhere near the freefall/canopy path of the divers and to stay on the opposite side of the DZ from where the jumpers got out if possible.

As far as aircraft not owned by the DZ it seems like there should be a law to prohibit aircraft from being within 1 miles of the DZ (unless they stay above abotu 16-17,000).

That's just my opinion though. I'd personally be pretty pissed if I came within 1000 ft. of another aircraft after I'm out of the plane. 1000 ft is a safe enough distance from myself that I'd feel comfortable, but there are plenty of other divers within 1000 ft of myself that could be very close to the aircraft.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[78RATS 0]

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It really is our problem and responsibility.

The poster above hit a good point. Don't aerial maps have a parachute symbol on them to warn aircraft there is a DZ down there? Isn't the pilot of the "target" aircraft at least partially responsible to steer clear of an obvious hazard?

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Sorry but if any laws are made you can bet your ass it will be restricting skydiving not the other way around.The FAA along with local governments tolerate us when we don't cause problems.Think about that the next time your making an ass out of yourself at the airport.Not directed at the poster.