Now I'm really confused, S/L or AFF??

[Ron 7]

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Once again, I never said that AFF is strong, or static line is weak. I think it is pretty clear that I had a great AFF experince, that that centers around my instructors, and not the discipline I learned under

And do you think that the same could have happend under SL?

What experience do you have of the SL program?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[b_dog 0]

I find it odd that some have remarked about some AFF students not knowing how to pack. Why shouldn't both AFF and SL students know how to back by the end of their respective course? Is it not a standard component of either training nowadays?

Whether I took SL or AFF, before I was done I would be sure to ask my instructors to show me how to pack, if it appeared they would not volunteer the information. Why isn't it even a requirement for an A license? Not only would I want to know how to pack my rig so I can be confident that I had done it right, I ain't going to pay someone $6 every time I need to pack when I can simply do it myself. It's not that hard, is it?

[DougH 270]

Holy hell Ron, have you recently taken a blow to the head?

"that centers around my instructors, and not the discipline I learned under"

In simpler terms, my experince would have been great SL or AFF, due to my great instructors.

I think you are failing to see that overall I agree with you, even if I don't agree with some of your saftey points.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[pilatus_p 0]

And whilst I can see this discussion is getting pretty heated, the original poster was asking for opinions on the two courses.

I did just that - posted my opinion based on my experience and the experience of several other people that have been through the system - ultimately S/L didn't 'feel' right to them or me, for the reasons I've quoted. I am a student, thats correct, and so I posted my view as someone who has been through what skyflygirl is looking to do now, the feelings I experienced doing it (something which accumulated with time and came from personal experince as well as speaking to other students) and ultimately why I opted for AFF.

So I don't agree that this is a one sided discussion of AFF being best - its just that more people who have replied to the original thread preferred AFF over SL and had their reasons for doing so.

To provide further examples only from experience - and as an example of only ONE aspect of learned skydiver skills, not an overall summation - the one friend of mine who passed RAPS went back for tunnel time to correct an emerging body postion problem. So did lots of AFF guys I know. All of the AFF'ers and the SL'er learned to spot and pack.

We have not got your experience and jump numbers, but we do have our experiences, both our own and friends who are further along the system - and that is what was asked for by the original poster. However factually accurate, the tone of some of the replies in this thread, not to mention one or two personal attacks, has been pretty shameful, especially coming from those who claim to be setting the example.

For those interested or concerned about getting 'noisy' experience from posters such as myself - If you are looking for british instructor level advice on the british system, you can get it here http://www.bpa.org.uk/skydive/ on the dive doctor page, call the BPA or circumvent the forum and PM an instructor here. If you want examples of student experiences, then yes you will get 'noise'. Caveat always applies - check with your instructor that is teaching you.

Ross

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

[Stiffler 0]

at the end of the day... do you want to fanny around doing static line shit for ages, or do you want to go skydiving from 14,000 feet with extremely experienced instructors straight away?

it's your call

[Ron 7]

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Holy hell Ron, have you recently taken a blow to the head?

Yes,,,er, No...Hell, I can't remember

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In simpler terms, my experince would have been great SL or AFF, due to my great instructors.

I think you are failing to see that overall I agree with you, even if I don't agree with some of your saftey points.

Ah, but then maybe you do not have the experience of lots of different DZ's and different programs at various DZ's. She is not asking about YOUR intstructors, she is asking about the programs *in general*. Your instructors seem to have done a good job on many of the topics that most AFF programs ignore. But just because your guys covered them, does not mean that they all do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Mike111 0]

BPA statistics. only 1 AFF fatality. numerous SL fatalities.

[Mike111 0]

I was told my both JM's, who all prefer AFF, not cos it brings more money, but they get thorugh AFF's in a week- took a guy 9 months to do SL here. Thery have 6,000 jumps each and have developed and trained thousands.

Plus static line you are on your own... AFF you have JM;s to aid you if necessary.

Yes static is cheaper - i did say that.

[Mike111 0]

Fair enough, i respect totally your opinion. AFF is faster and however if money allow, surely?

[darkwing 4]

It doesn't make any difference. Just jump. Really. Stop worrying about it. If you want my vote though, I say do AFF. JUMP!!

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[wildfan75 1]

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at the end of the day... do you want to fanny around doing static line shit for ages, or do you want to go skydiving from 14,000 feet with extremely experienced instructors straight away?

it's your call

Where do you, and Mike111 for that matter, get that it takes ages to go through static line?!?! I am totally puzzled. Beyond belief. If it took someone nine months to get through s/l, that's their fault. I had my static line jumps down in two weekends, and by the end of the third I was jumping from full altitude. And to imply that s/l instructor are less than extremely experienced is crap. True, you did not say that s/l instructors where not extremely experienced but to say that AFF instructors are extremely experienced is to imply that s/l instructors are inferior. And I would hardly doubt that getting to jump with two members of the World Team that broke the mass formation freefall record this year in Thailand, among other great and skilled skydivers and instructors is hardly small potatoes--because that was my experience. Your point is as valid as me saying, "You should do s/l because then you get to jump with World Team members". It's personal experience. The only way she is going to know what best for her, as I stated before, is to go to the dz or dz's that she may be jumping at, talk to the instructors, watch different jumps, look at it from every angle, financial included, and get a feel for what is right for her.

But what the hell do I know, I'm just talking out of my ass

[Thanatos340 1]

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I was told my both JM's, who all prefer AFF, not cos it brings more money, but they get thorugh AFF's in a week- took a guy 9 months to do SL here. Thery have 6,000 jumps each and have developed and trained thousands.

Plus static line you are on your own... AFF you have JM;s to aid you if necessary.

Yes static is cheaper - i did say that.

Getting through AFF does NOT get you off student status. The A license does that. That takes 25 Jumps minimum with either progression.

After AFF you are cleared for Solos and Coach Jumps. That is it. (and the AFF progression doesn’t stop after Level 8.. There are more requirements to be met to get to become a Licensed Skydiver.)

With Static Line, Every Jump is a Solo. By Jump 12 you are doing full altitude freefall coach jumps.

It takes 25 Jumps to get an A License. You can get 25 Jumps quicker dong static line for the following reasons..

1. Only going to 3000 feet for your first few Jumps. Fewer weather holds due to low ceiling.

2. Only one instructor needed and that instructor can put out Multiple Students per Load.

3. Quicker turn around time because You are getting out lower.. At many DZ`s the plane will go on to altitude with other jumpers once the SL students are out. With the later levels, You can make every load if your debriefs are pretty quick and a rig is available.

Just because one person took 9 months doesn’t mean anything. I know Plenty of Jumpers that took longer than that to get their A License doing AFF. In fact I am willing to bet that MOST AFF students take at least a Month or Two to get their A if not longer.

Another drawback to the AFF program is exactly what your instructors said.. They can get the Students through AFF and be done with them in a Week. 8 Jumps and you are on your own. With SL, You have an Instructor working with you MUCH longer into the progression at a lower cost. If you have bottomless pockets maybe that doesn’t matter to you but for most the fact each Jump is considerably less expensive enables them to get through even faster because they don’t have to fork out so much for every jump and jumps that have to be repeated will not break the bank.

You are a Student until you get an A License no matter what progression you choose. Both Progressions require a Minimum of 25 Jumps to get that.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not only would I want to know how to pack my rig so I can be confident that I had done it right, I ain't going to pay someone $6 every time I need to pack when I can simply do it myself. It's not that hard, is it?

It's not hard (though it is hard work initially), but it's yet another of those leaps of faith you have to do as a student. I opened my pack job at 5k. Another person on the load did at 8k. It took time to learn how sloppy a pack job would still open great.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I feel AFF students are missing out.

Static line progression is much more of a personal challenge than AFF. And heaps more fun on an individual level. You get the basic skills in a natural progression not all at once.
It feels more playful somehow than the often highly commercialised AFF operations.

You actually get to jump by YOURSELF without some-one holding onto you .

That may be important to you ....it was to me.

I don't think it's any less a personal challenge for the AFF students. The overload on AFF-4 especially. It took me 3 tries, but 8 actual months to get past. I probably would have done better in the SL model breaking these steps into smaller ones. Or maybe I would have been stuck on getting the exit right forever. Who can say now.

I suspect most of the advantages of SL come from the smaller scale of the dropzone. My AFF-I might go back-2-back-2-back before he could brief me, and before I would be allowed to manifest again. That sucked ass.

[Ron 7]

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I suspect most of the advantages of SL come from the smaller scale of the dropzone. My AFF-I might go back-2-back-2-back before he could brief me, and before I would be allowed to manifest again. That sucked ass.

In part, I would agree. However, I also think that the more jumps in a SL program is a benefit as well. Even though the Freefall instruction might not be as good, the canopy instruction is just as good and there is more of it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[peckerhead 0]

You should listen to Ron, as usual he is right on. Everytime one of these threads pop up the low number jumpers with limited experience will almost always say one is better than the other.

I am one of those crusty "old" guys who learned SL. I made my first jump when I was 18 and had a C license and two night jumps when I was 21. (nobody bothered to get an A or B license back then we went straight to C)

When I was 25 I had a D license and 1000 jumps.

My observations:

AFF grads tend to have better freefall skills, not always but usually this is true. They almost always have a bigger ego and think 100 jumps is a lot.

SL students know how to spot, pack, and fuel the airplane. They will jump with a 2000 ft. ceiling (because they thought they could get 3000 and don't want anyone to think they are wimpy)

AFF grads are more affluent and drive nice cars. They usually don't hang out and party because they have better things to do, they have a girlfriend who is calling them on their cell phone.

SL students sleep in their car because they are too drunk to drive home and they wish they had a girlfriend.

AFF grads want to know when they can jump because they are in a hurry and have a date.

SL students ask if they can empty the trash or help out in some way while they are waiting to get on a load.

AFF grads never bring food or beer. (they will make up some bullshit excuse and promise to do it next time)

SL students are embarassed if they don't bring food or beer and are forced to do so RIGHT NOW DAMMIT!


AFF grads will pay someone with 100 jumps to do a two way with them

SL students get to do four ways with jumpers that have thousands of jumps for NO EXTRA CHARGE!

[MarkM 0]

Haha, funniest comparison ever.

Also, don't forget, AFF students have hot supermodel kickboxing girlfriends. I'm pretty sure that one is in the DZ brochures, so you know it's true.

[Stiffler 0]

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Haha, funniest comparison ever.

Also, don't forget, AFF students have hot supermodel kickboxing girlfriends. I'm pretty sure that one is in the DZ brochures, so you know it's true.

you know it's true

and also.... static line students have girlfriends who sit posting on www.dropzone.com all day and night because they're too ugly to be a model and to lazy to do any exercise


so... AFF or static line? hmmmmm difficult one

[peek 20]

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BPA statistics.

Well, you know what they say about statistics....

I wonder how they collected those. I actually wonder how anyone does.

An interesting point is that once a person is through with their static line jumps or harness hold jumps, they are simply a student, and no longer a static line or AFF student, although that is how they are often thought of.


Thanks for the answer.

[Mike111 0]

lol that is actually quite fgunny!!!!!!!!

[skyflygirl1 0]

Well I guess after reading that I'd better go the Aff route, after all I have my super hot kickboxing girlfriend cooking my grub in the kitchen now. . . gotta go, she's maoning about the bloody handcuffs again LOL

I can be funny too

(just to crush the day dreams of many men, no I'm not a muff muncher, soz)

Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever!

www.myspace.com/byasa

[rehmwa 2]

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(nobody bothered to get an A or B license back then we went straight to C)

because the C was needed to do demos into stadiums and college campuses and airshows...... and a static line student could get to 100 jumps in no time (A no license, B no license, C-19623, D-12816)

great post



one other thing - screw the student, AFF is more fun for the instructor and he gets paid more per student and also gets to jump from higher altitude

(Ron's comment about how today, we need separate packing classes and spotting classes and etc etc etc is dead on target)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyflygirl1 0]

Was thinking isn't it best to just do a packing course?
I'm suprised they're not an essential and mandatory part of the process to getting your A licence.

Will book myself on one probably even before I get my A

Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever!

www.myspace.com/byasa

[Stiffler 0]

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Was thinking isn't it best to just do a packing course?
I'm suprised they're not an essential and mandatory part of the process to getting your A licence.

Will book myself on one probably even before I get my A

let others pack for you, i do

• Quote

[Katherine 0]

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Where do you, and Mike111 for that matter, get that it takes ages to go through static line?!?! I am totally puzzled. Beyond belief. If it took someone nine months to get through s/l, that's their fault. I had my static line jumps down in two weekends, and by the end of the third I was jumping from full altitude.

Not totally fair or accurate.

I started SL last october, spent nearly every weekend at the dz and finally got my A license atthe end of May after 28 jumps. If the weather was good I dropped everything and went to the dz, and jumped as much as I physically could (i.e. space on the plane). Don't forget we have a lot of bad weather here in the UK over winter, far more non jumperbal days than jumping ones, and how many of those occur at the weekend?!? And I progressed pretty fast, a lot of uni students take over a year to qualify.

Leeds University Skydiving Club
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk