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Determining YOUR Hard Deck

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Hi...

In the course of going over my last jump with more experienced jumpers later, I was asked about altitude I pulled from, and what my hard deck is.

Is this a hard & firm factor?
Does it differ depending on the original altitude you exited from? Please. What all factors into determining your hard deck besides experience?

I know mine is higher than others, but I need to have some input about this. THANX y'all, as usual, I appreciate your input!

-L.:)

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Is this a hard & firm factor?
Does it differ depending on the original altitude you exited from? Please. What all factors into determining your hard deck besides experience?









I'm Not an instructor so take this advice with a grain of salt.


Your "Hard Deck" is the lowest altitude in which you have to make a decision to keep your main or chop it. I can only speak for my DZ where the hard deck is 2000 feet.

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Does it differ depending on the original altitude you exited from? Please.




In short, NO, it does not differ from the altitude you jumped from.





.

There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan

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Please refer to SIMS section 2.1:

G. Minimum opening altitudes [E]

Back to Section 2-1 Contents


Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:


1. Tandem jumps--4,500 feet AGL

2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL

3. B-license holders--2,500 feet AGL

4. C- and D-license holders--2,000 feet AGL


So in theory you should be pulling by 3K. Hard deck would be the lowest altitude to which you would start your EP's if you have a partial or total malfunction.

[urlhttp://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/section2.htm] USPA Clicky[/url]

Opening will always be depending to your distance to the ground, not your exit alti. If you by any chance plan to open higher than 5K, you should let the pilot know before getting in the plane.

Talk to your instructors, they should be able to give you a hand determining your hard deck. There are many factors, but you will be safe if you start conservatively. High enough.

There are many factors to determine your hard deck, but it is up to you to choose and stick with one no matter what. One big important one is if you jump an AAD.

Blue ones
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

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Most of the trainers and experienced jumpers were at Richmond this weekend. I did my 1st low solo on Saturday and was planning for my 2nd solo (high) on Monday. And just wanted to have a little more varied input before I did.

Believe me, if I got a question, I'm not only asking tons of questions, I'm going over jumps and things I don't understand with everybody at my dz, too.
It definitely can not be said that I'm quiet!

I do try to be very conservative. No hotdogging it for me! too risky.

I have since talked to the safety dude at my dz who is also my trainer. Everything is squared away now.

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I'm making it 3,000. Lowest I've opened at yet...and I'll tell you, while waiting for a delayed chute to open, and looking down at that ground rushing up at me, and looking up and finally seeing my chute come out of the pack and open up....
I know I'll want another 1,000 to get under reserve!!

I'm very HAPPY to be under canopy at 3,000!

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I'm making it 3,000



At the dropzone I jump at, this will mean you are mostly jumping alone. Most people at my DZ pull at about 3500'-3000'. If your decision altitude is 3000', this means you have to deploy somewhere around 4000', which means you cannot join most of the dives we do. You will exit at the back of the experienced line, right before the tandems. Occasionally there will be people willing to work with you, but mostly you'll be going at it alone. This may not be such a bad thing at 18 jumps, and with more experience you may feel comfortable working the hard deck down.

I deploy at about 3300'-3200'. My hard deck is at 2000'. I have not yet had a cutaway, but from my experience with deployments there is more than enough time. After the snatch force you can, for the most part, tell whether it will open or not by looking up. If the lines are clear and organized into 4 line groups, the canopy is mostly square and not distorted and the slider is up, inflated and square, it will most likely open. There are some malfunctions, such as internal structural damage, that you cannot detect like this. These malfunctions may even be landable, depending on the extent of the damage and the size/planform of your canopy.

The best thing to do to decide on a hard deck is to discuss it with an instructor who knows you well. Don't decide by reading some posts by some dorks on the internet.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

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I pulled at 4,000. Wasn't under canopy right away. Training is starting to work me down from where my instructor had me pulling at 6,000. On this hop-n-pop I opened as soon as I could...

But got some static b/c from the ground they thought I was uner canopy too low b/c they thought I had pulled too low.

I'm trying to follow all my training and guidance of my instructor...But always can work to make all my skills and abilitieis and judgements better.

Ya know what I mean?

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You will exit at the back of the experienced line, right before the tandems.



Not to reopen another Can of Worms here, But I assume that this Jumper would be flying on his belly, Therefore out before the Freeflyers for proper horizontal seperation reguardless of opening altitude.

Am I incorrect on this?

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I'm trying to follow all my training and guidance of my instructor...But always can work to make all my skills and abilitieis and judgements better.



That is an extremely smart decision. Stick to this and you can't go wrong!B|

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

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Not to reopen another Can of Worms here, But I assume that this Jumper would be flying on his belly, Therefore out before the Freeflyers for proper horizontal seperation reguardless of opening altitude.

Am I incorrect on this?



We put people who are pulling significantly higher than the rest, by a 1000' or more, behind the rest regardless of their discipline. I personally am not convinced this is a smart idea since they could have a cutaway, but highly experienced instructors at my DZ decided to make it so.

I suppose that the risk the person would pose if they were put in the middle of the lineup and pulled high is greater than that of them cutting away and hitting someone. Since the people that are in this position are typically fairly inexperienced and may be flying up the line of flight after deployment, I can see where the instructors are coming from.

Think of it this way. If they are in the back of the line and have a cutaway, they could be freefalling through the middle of the line on this jump. However, if you put them in the middle of the line, they have people freefalling around them on every jump.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

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I'm making it 3,000
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I pulled at 4,000***

OK, I have very few jumps, so the following is NOT an advise. Definitely talk to your instructors.
My train of thought: a hard deck is a hard deck is a hard deck. That means that if I am not under a safely landable canopy at my hard deck, i chop. I leave myself more than 1,000ft between pull altitude and my hard deck (which does not vary EVER), for the following reasons:
1/ I had a 1,200 ft snivell opening once. With a pull altitude only 1,000ft above my hard deck, I would have had to chop!?
2/ Sticking to my hard deck, I would have had to chop more than once (pulling only 1,000ft above my HD) because of minor line twists (that I easily fixed).
Once again, the above is not an advise, just my personal way to deal with pull altitude/hard deck.
ASK YOU INSTRUCTOR.

Nick

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

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***At the dropzone I jump at, this will mean you are mostly jumping alone. Most people at my DZ pull at about 3500'-3000'
====================================

If those are the common pull altitudes, add 1000 to 1500 ft for common break off altitudes. That puts break off at 4k (min) to 5k. There's no reason the jumper in question couldn't pull in the center, just after break off, allowing him to jump with others.

For a guy who's never had a cutaway, you seem to have alot to say about deployments and what will and won't work. Take a giant step back and think about what you don't know.

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There's no reason the jumper in question couldn't pull in the center



The exit order is the reason. I only spoke about my DZ.

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For a guy who's never had a cutaway, you seem to have alot to say about deployments and what will and won't work. Take a giant step back and think about what you don't know.



What have I said that is wrong or incomplete? If you do not tell me and everyone else on here, we will not know.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

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Read carefully, the center refers to the center of a formation, not the center of the exit order. Thats why there's reference to break off (implying that others are present).

According to your report, this jumper would be doing solos at your DZ due to his high hard deck. My point was that his pull requirements weren't that far out of line with what others at your DZ are doing as to preclude him from jumping with others.

You estimated that he would have to pull by 4000ft to have a 3000ft hard deck. Your own pull requirements are at 3200 to 3300ft. You mean to tell me that 700ft puts this guy at the back of the bus, doing solos at your DZ?

Your info regarding deployment time is short sighted, though in line with your experience. Many problems exist and can occur after you have seen four line groups going into a square slider (although it is a good start). A broken line, a stuck slider, a stuck brake toggle, knotted or snagged excess steering line, etc. are all things that could make an otherwise 'good' canopy unlandable. While your freefall may have been arrested, your eventual contact with the ground might not be injury free.

Good luck with the toggle whippin', Yahoo.

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> If those are the common pull altitudes, add 1000 to 1500 ft for common
> break off altitudes. That puts break off at 4k (min) to 5k. There's no
>reason the jumper in question couldn't pull in the center, just after break
>off, allowing him to jump with others.

I am very hesitant about allowing newer jumpers to do this on my dives. Imagine a plan where breakoff is 4K - he will dump at 4K as everyone breaks off and tracks to 2500. There's a funnel, he goes low, and at 4K there are two people above him and one below him. The potential for injury there is pretty high. The exception would be if the other people on the dive were AFF rated or equivalent, and I had pretty good assurances they would avoid the area above the new jumper (as AFF-I's are trained to do.)

Cameramen often take the center because they are skilled enough to maintain a safe position above but very close to the formation. That's not the case with newer jumpers.

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You estimated that he would have to pull by 4000ft to have a 3000ft hard deck. Your own pull requirements are at 3200 to 3300ft. You mean to tell me that 700ft puts this guy at the back of the bus, doing solos at your DZ?



For people with 18 jumps yes. This was not my decision, I have only reported what is happening. It is up to our instructors. If you want to discuss the operations of Skydive Burnaby, go speak to someone who actually makes decisions, not to someone on the bottom of the experience level scale.

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Many problems exist and can occur after you have seen four line groups going into a square slider



While I said that not all malfunctions may be detected this way, I thank you for your correction and emphasis of that easily overlooked statement. I have relayed advice given to me by my instructors, and people have already told the original poster to speak to their instructor, so I believe we are done here.

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Good luck with the toggle whippin', Yahoo.



Now look here. I am being respectful to you because you have so much more experience than me (and are probably older than me too), but that was really uncalled for. Now that you have seen my signature line and four of my posts on dz.com, I suppose you know everything you need to know about me, huh? Sheesh.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

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All good points. I would lean toward the 5000ft side of the stated break off range, giving the other jumpers 1000ft to clear the area, and the center-guy time to have a controlled pull with no rush.

In consideration of the low jump numbers for the jumper in question, the size of the formation would be very small, say four if two were on the more experienced side, smaller if all had lower jump numbers. While there are some special considerations involved, wanting to dump at 4000ft does need to be a trip to solo-ville at any DZ.

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>I would lean toward the 5000ft side of the stated break off range, giving
> the other jumpers 1000ft to clear the area, and the center-guy time to
> have a controlled pull with no rush.

I would just lean towards everyone (including this jumper) breaking off sooner. The standard everyone-tracks has a pretty good track record for safety - and if it's safe for one jumper to open at 4000, it's safe for the other 3 to open at 4000.

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I talked to my trainer who is also the my DZ S&TA. He told me that I was OK. Pulling at 4,000 and that 3,000 hard deck is good.

I remain clear headed & cool & react well under pressure & in dangerous situations...I click in and do whatever needs to be done. I know this cause been times in past when I needed to keep it together and I did.

Now I just need more info from my trainer about my reserve chutes, opening times and situations where & when to chop, or not chop when you need to active the reserve.

I need to know it before I need to do it!

Blues to you all
:)

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