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jraf

Titusville Manifest and Sky Gods new deployment altitudes

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To refund money paid in on credit cards involves taking additional transaction fees. Then it ends up costing the business money to refund you your original money. Do you really expect businesses to take a loss to refund someone?

This is something that needs to be considered before you buy large amounts of tickets or place money on account anywhere. What happens if the DZ suddenly shuts down? You are out your money since the business is no more since you are WAY below the bank in terms of a creditor list. If the DZ gets sold you may be out of luck with existing tickets since they were owned by the old owner and may not have been in the list of assets and debts the new ower bought.

If you want to avoid this situation pay by cash on a per jump basis only. This is what I do when I'm traveling and I'm not sure if I'm going to make 1 jump or 6 jumps in a given day.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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-Some smaller DZ's, one person wears many hats. Maybe the manifester also functions as a safety adviser of sorts. At that point, though, I would have the usual questions about credibility. Is this manifester knowledgeable enough to make a judgement on how safely or not I'm skydiving? I've seen manifesters who thought they knew way more than they did.

-Attitude and approach to safety issures make a huge difference in the results. The drill sargeant, noisy, public chewing out is effective only at pissing people off and making them go to a different DZ. It rarely results in teaching a jumper to be safer. I've always tried to use a quieter, more private approach, and it's been a lot more effective for me.

- I have jumped at a DZ that used a higher-than-USPA opening altitude. I was well briefed on that while doing the paperwork. It wasn't a problem.:)

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To refund money paid in on credit cards involves taking additional transaction fees. Then it ends up costing the business money to refund you your original money. Do you really expect businesses to take a loss to refund someone?

This is something that needs to be considered before you buy large amounts of tickets or place money on account anywhere. What happens if the DZ suddenly shuts down? You are out your money since the business is no more since you are WAY below the bank in terms of a creditor list. If the DZ gets sold you may be out of luck with existing tickets since they were owned by the old owner and may not have been in the list of assets and debts the new ower bought.

If you want to avoid this situation pay by cash on a per jump basis only. This is what I do when I'm traveling and I'm not sure if I'm going to make 1 jump or 6 jumps in a given day.



Considering one gets a cash discount at most yes I would expect them to refund the full amount. I dont go to a wal mart and get a cash discount , and when returning a product they do not charge me to get that refund. If they take credit cards then they should take into consideration its costs of accepting them
Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

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A better way would be ok keep the money let me make one more jump out of the king air FRONT FLOAT:D:D:D.
As to the altitude deployment. If you followed all of USPA's recommendations and pulled within that guideline, why were you given a hard time?
On a side note, i thought the manifestors job was to manifest. Isn't it the S and TAs job to do the policing?



I got my money back. I made it quite lcear that I am not in the business of selling tickets, the DZ is. I made it quite clear that once the ticket is sold it is a contractual agreement by the DZto take the jumper to altitude and remains such contractual agreement till refunded.

It is a manifestors job to manifest. Titusville, per their own statement does not have an S&TA. The manifestor there is not competent to be an S&TA and is not a USPA accreditted S&TA. She is however full of self importance and knowledge of skydiving trivia. She is also supported by very experienced skydivers:D
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

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I agree with the pay by the jump when traveling.I had a DZ in the north east try that no refund shit with me once.I paid cash when I got there and ended up shooting 4-way vid because there were no RW folks there.They tried to keep $80 when it was time for me to leave.Thats just a crock of shit.Putting aside any transaction fees,money should be refunded before the customer has to cause a scene.

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I agree with the pay by the jump when traveling.I had a DZ in the north east try that no refund shit with me once.I paid cash when I got there and ended up shooting 4-way vid because there were no RW folks there.They tried to keep $80 when it was time for me to leave.Thats just a crock of shit.Putting aside any transaction fees,money should be refunded before the customer has to cause a scene.



And we all know chris you hate to cause a SCENE:D:D
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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We'll settle this how it should be settled:D In chocholate jello. MMMm i think i am ahead onm that one
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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I got my money back.



So WTF is this all about?



It is about Service Levels within the skydiving industry. I care about how I am being treated when I leave my hard eaned money somewhere. I am not one of those kids who will carry a lunchbox for someone just because they have a couple of hundred or even thousand jumps more.

When you go to a restaurant and the service is not to your liking, don't you complain? How about a restaurant where you ordered a steak, while the waiter brings you pasta? What if when you complain, the waiter tells you that a very experienced chef told him that your pasta is in fact a steak. And you can turn blue if you don't like it. This post is all about unsatisfactory service and lack of professional integrity of Titusville employees.

It is skydivers themselves who allow for the service levels to be low. I voted with my money, and took my business elswhere. Apparently the owners don't care, cause the only person who reacted was Richard Schachner of the USPA. And we as USPA members have the power to exert pressure on such DZs.
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

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To refund money paid in on credit cards involves taking additional transaction fees.



Not if they reverse the transaction. when they run a Card, They get an Approval. At the end of they day or weekend, They run a Process that basically credits Positive balances. At least that is the way worked when I used to take Credit Cards at my Business.

Money placed on account is for both mine and the DZ`s convenience. If everyone had to walk up and pay for their slot for every load, It would be a Pain for everyone involved.

When I travel to a new DZ, After wavering I generally put money on account for jumping that day or weekend. If they pissed me off for whatever reason (Justified or not) I would expect (DEMAND actually) that any remaining balance be refunded immediately. If I paid Cash, I want cash back. If I paid Credit card, A Refund to the card. (If there any fees involved, They can keep the fees but I want MY money back).

Any DZ that would have a problem with this needs to make sure they become part of the Skyride network because they have the ethics (or lack thereof).

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The only thing this thread has done successfully is show the huge gap between those who skydive, and those who run DZs.

Look, I'm all for having a good relationship with the manifest people. I like every single manifester at Mile-Hi, even Lisa when she looks like she wants to tear your head off and suck your spinal fluid out. Why? Because I've never seen them pull an attitude on anyone, regardless of how stubborn or hostile the person may be.

That's their job. They are the service employee, and I am the customer. My personal beliefs dictate that I treat them with respect, because thats how I want people to treat me. Plus, being nice has helped sneak me on to a couple loads I wouldn't have been able to make otherwise.

But if I didn't want to be nice, I don't have to. And as the employee, she does. Sure, the DZO can choose to ban assholes from their operation, and I would be fine with that, but every time I open a Parachutist, all I see is article after article about the declining numbers and how DZs are losing business and facing shutting down.

Seems to me like these DZs should be taking every step they can to keep people coming, and yes, that means putting up with and pleasing even the most obnoxious customer.

Is that my endorsement of jerks at DZs? No, I dislike them as much as the next guy, but I didn't make it my business to serve them.

And to the manifester who had the balls to demand respect, you should be thanking whatever god you pray to that you have that job, because if you pulled that shit as a waiter at a restaurant, a salesperson at a department store, or anywhere else, you'd be out the door and on your ass so fast your head would spin.

And to the OP: You dealt with an employee with an attitude, and you did the right thing; you took your business elsewhere. They will suffer for it, and if she treats others that way, she will continue to hurt the DZ

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I go with the BSR i.e: container opening at 3,000 AGL, which is higher than required anyway.



Mr. Jraf,

Since your profile contains a bunch of silly horseshit (1 jump, License # F-111 from NASA, 5.95 wing loading, etc.) it's difficult to access your credibility in saying that the people at the DZ are unqualified and don't know what they're talking about.

With respect to the USPA BSRs, I believe that the opening altitudes have a license provision attached. Do you possess a USPA license ? If so, what class is it ? What were the deployment altitudes shown on your L&B Pro Track for your jumps that day at Skydive Space Center ?

I hope you don't mind these intrusive questions. I'm trying to ask politely, as I realize that you are a sensitive individual. ;)

Kevin Keenan
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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>How about a restaurant where you ordered a steak, while the waiter
>brings you pasta? What if when you complain, the waiter tells you
> that a very experienced chef told him that your pasta is in fact a
> steak. And you can turn blue if you don't like it.

This is one thing that's been annoying me lately. Skydiving is NOT like renting a car, or going to a restaraunt, or buying a TV at Wal-Mart.

If you want a better analogy, it's like going to a restaraunt that a friend of yours runs, one where you help out cooking when there's a shortage of cooks, and in return he gives you meals for cost. One night you come in, he's in a tearing hurry, and you don't want to help out. Instead you order a steak. You get it (for $5) and complain about how it's cooked. You demand another one RIGHT NOW. Your friend is harried and can't do it. So you demand your money back.

I'd suspect you'd get it. And what you would lose there would be far, far more than the $5 you might have lost had you not been a pain in the butt.

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It is a manifestors job to manifest.


This is not meant to comment on your issue with that certain person, but since someone else asked about other manifestors on here and another person noted that sometimes we wear many hats, I just thought I'd add this.

On an average weekend (anywhere from 8 to 15 loads of ~20 people/load per day) I will
-manifest loads
-give calls
-deal with two people trying to manifest at the window at the same time and the one person trying to do it from within the office.
-occasionally have to remind people that gear-up call means "gear up", not "stand around idly looking at your gear"
-print loading lists
-assign passengers, students and cameras to instructors and rental gear to students and people renting gear, always making sure that the instructors and cameraflyers get an equal share of work, that the students get more or less the same amount of jumps and that no rental rig is double-booked or manifested twice on back-to-back loads.
-explain to tandem passengers how long they'll have to wait for a jump and why.
-occasionally check that the girl who accepts payments is putting them in the system, otherwise I might tell a person who just paid that they can't manifest because their account is empty.
-have people ask me to play some music because I forgot to put on another playlist with all the other things I'm doing.
-invariably have someone come to complain about the music I'm playing.
-constantly look for a way to do more back-to-backs with the given number of tandems, students, instructors and funjumpers.
-communicate with the pilot and mechanics to make sure we can do those back-to-backs.
-have people come to ask for "just another minute" because their rig is not packed yet and they really need to be on this load or have someone (so often the same someone that I'd be surprised if it didn't happen at least once per weekend) show up on the dz right at boarding call asking if they can make the laod.
-run for a quick hop&pop and get some "me-time" on the pond.
-stand outside to watch the openings and landings, make sure that everyone is safe and sometimes have private, quiet talks with people who do stupid or dangerous stuff.
-tell the instructors and cameramen what's coming next and make sure the packers know what rental gear needs to be packed.
-charge the person who was so certain that their friend manifested them that they boarded the plane without even checking.
-take myself off the load and miss the next hop&pop because someone was certain that I heard them asking to manifest on that load one hour ago, and now it's full and they really want to go.
-not eat anything except fruit and whatever people bring me and drink too much coffee.
-keep smiling.

And I could probably add more stuff. Bottom line is, there's a lot of potential for stress and confusion in running a skydiving operation and sometimes it seems that my position is the hub into which it all flows to come out sorted-like and calm...:P But in the end, you keep smiling and try to keep everyone happy, because that's what you do.

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And I could probably add more stuff. Bottom line is, there's a lot of potential for stress and confusion in running a skydiving operation and sometimes it seems that my position is the hub into which it all flows to come out sorted-like and calm...Tongue But in the end, you keep smiling and try to keep everyone happy, because that's what you do.



Everything you listed is typical of literally every manifest everywhere in the US. You're pretty busy, huh? Much too busy to try to be the S&TA too, I bet. Jumper safety situations should be left to the S&TA. If the S&TA isn't there or available then its up to the senior instructors. Prior to that a jumper's friend should jump down their throat if they do something stupid.

However, no where should the S&TA's duties fall to the manifestor, whom is inside manifest and not out in the landing area watching the jumpers.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I go with the BSR i.e: container opening at 3,000 AGL, which is higher than required anyway.



Mr. Jraf,

Since your profile contains a bunch of silly horseshit (1 jump, License # F-111 from NASA, 5.95 wing loading, etc.) it's difficult to access your credibility in saying that the people at the DZ are unqualified and don't know what they're talking about.

With respect to the USPA BSRs, I believe that the opening altitudes have a license provision attached. Do you possess a USPA license ? If so, what class is it ? What were the deployment altitudes shown on your L&B Pro Track for your jumps that day at Skydive Space Center ?

I hope you don't mind these intrusive questions. I'm trying to ask politely, as I realize that you are a sensitive individual. ;)

Kevin Keenan



Mr. Keenan,

You write as if you had a financial stake in the Titusville dropzone, which I hope you do, but then identify yourself as the co-DZO.

1. My profile contains my name, that is all that is needed.
2. My USPA license entitles me to open my container below the 3,000 foot AGL level that I chose for myself. Even if I were an A license holder that still would be according to BSRs. But you as a skydiver with 35 years experience obviously knew it without my mentioning so.

3. The lady who was running manifest was not qualified to judge my opening altitude for several reasons:
a. she did not see it (self addmitted)
b. she is not an expereienced jumper (as you well know)
c. she is not an S&TA (as you know)
4. The very experienced skydivers were not qualifies either as either they opened their containers 1,000 feet above me (4,000 AGL as you well know) or perhaps were on the ground. With all due respect but I will trust my instruments over their experience
5. My L&B Pro Dytter (yes that is the instrument that we are talking about) was set to sound last alarm at 2,500 AGL. I have not heard the dytter's third alarm, and it will go off even if your canopy is sniveling. based on my Alti 2 I open my container slightly above the 3,000 foot mark.

6. As in 35 years of skydiving you might have forgotten it's shape, let me remind you what an Alti 2 looks like - it has a very large bright yellow triangle that goes from 3,000 to 2,500 feet and then it is a red triangle below that

Considering that I saw the dial approaching 3,000 when I opened my container and my L&B Pro Dytter 2,500 foot alarm did not go off I will trust my instruments that I opened my container at 3,000 feet give or take 100 feet.

You may have forgotten this as you have been in this sport for so long, but altitude awareness is the rule. The rule is also not to look at anybody elses deployment altitude no matter how very experienced skydivers they are but to trust your instruments and your judgement thereof.

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With only 47 jumps, I can't comment on the prevailing DZ rules and regulations of this whole thing. Need some more travel experience before I open my mouth there.

However, as the owner of a business, this struck me:

Quote

To refund money paid in on credit cards involves taking additional transaction fees. Then it ends up costing the business money to refund you your original money. Do you really expect businesses to take a loss to refund someone?



Just to further what a couple of other folks have said on this one...in short, yes.

Aside from the contractual obligations that the OP has pointed out, here's my thoughts on the issue. They involve a cost-benefit analysis:

Which of the following is going to cost the DZ more money?

1) Refunding the money and paying a 30-cent transaction fee, plus 2% of the amount refunded, to the credit card processor. For 5 jumps refunded at $22 apiece, that's roughly $2.50 total it costs them to refund the money of someone they've said they don't want jumping there to begin with.

2) Arguing with the customer, balking at refunding his money, which takes up some time that they could be using to do more productive work. The whole scenario causes a scene, which possibly turns off some other jumpers who are visiting there.

Then the offended party - rightfully annoyed at a) not being told the rules to begin with and b) having a DZ employee speak down to him in a harsh manner, when a simple, "I'm sorry, someone should have explained the rules to you" would have done nicely - he tells his jumper friends, and posts it on the internet, where some guy who jumps in Southern California sees it and thinks, "Hm. I dunno if all the guy said is true, but there are a lot of DZ's in Florida. I'm gonna head to another one when I'm down there next month, just to avoid the potential hassle of dealing with Titusville."

With the advent of the internet, word of mouth has a loooooong reach. Because there's a lot more than just one guy in Southern California reading this thread.

So, above are 2 scenarios - which do you think is going to cost the DZ more money? The $2.50 in transaction fees, or the bad word of mouth spread across his circle of close-knit skydiving buddies AND, potentially, the internet?

This isn't skydiving-specific - it's just good business. Makes me appreciate the attitude (or lack thereof) at my home DZ even more.

When I started my company, I realized that you can't force your product down a customer's throat if they don't want it. Sure, you may walk away with the money for the meantime...but you're cannibalizing yourself for down the road. Holding someone's money hostage by refusing to accept a return on a product they don't like seems rarely a smart thing to do. It ultimately shows you're not confident enough that your product is good, and that you can sell it to someone else.

LisaMarie's & Thanatos's excellent comments re: cash discounts & reversing transactions notwithstanding, it only makes financial sense as a businessperson to just refund the money. Otherwise, I as a customer will vote with my wallet. And my mouth.

The best advertising is word-of-mouth...and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than paid ads.

KC

Oh, yeah, PS - All that being said, Kevin also makes an excellent point. I am a little wary of this entire thread, just because of the lack of profile on the OP. I would give it a lot more weight to their comments if he/she would tell us something real about him/herself. The person does seem to be making some good points...but none of that tells us if they are actually qualified to be making these sorts of assertions.

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I was always under the impression manifeters get paid..Maybe i am missing something here. So, what some peeps are saying. In their job duties, we the customers, should put up with their attitudes because they are doing there job.
Also, if the manifestor is in charge of loading the plane being the STA and other stuff then maybe some of the DZOs need to address some of these issues.
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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>How about a restaurant where you ordered a steak, while the waiter
>brings you pasta? What if when you complain, the waiter tells you
> that a very experienced chef told him that your pasta is in fact a
> steak. And you can turn blue if you don't like it.

This is one thing that's been annoying me lately. Skydiving is NOT like renting a car, or going to a restaraunt, or buying a TV at Wal-Mart.

If you want a better analogy, it's like going to a restaraunt that a friend of yours runs, one where you help out cooking when there's a shortage of cooks, and in return he gives you meals for cost. One night you come in, he's in a tearing hurry, and you don't want to help out. Instead you order a steak. You get it (for $5) and complain about how it's cooked. You demand another one RIGHT NOW. Your friend is harried and can't do it. So you demand your money back.

I'd suspect you'd get it. And what you would lose there would be far, far more than the $5 you might have lost had you not been a pain in the butt.



Sadly is not that type of place. I have never received anything for free at Titusville and never was given any favors. I was with other jumpers dumped off loads to make place for tandems many times though i.e: the place is rather like any poorly run service organization. No friendships with the owners, trust me.
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

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6. As in 35 years of skydiving you might have forgotten it's shape, let me remind you what an Alti 2 looks like - it has a very large bright yellow triangle that goes from 3,000 to 2,500 feet and then it is a red triangle below that

Considering that I saw the dial approaching 3,000 when I opened my container and my L&B Pro Dytter 2,500 foot alarm did not go off I will trust my instruments that I opened my container at 3,000 feet give or take 100 feet.

You may have forgotten this as you have been in this sport for so long, but altitude awareness is the rule. The rule is also not to look at anybody elses deployment altitude no matter how very experienced skydivers they are but to trust your instruments and your judgement thereof.



Whoa! Testy, testy!!

Down where I grew up, there' an expression: "The bit dog always hollers."

As someone who may or may not have more experience than you in this sport, Jraf, I'm curious as to why you're so defensive about posting your jump numbers and your license? (incidentally, none of us knows if you actually have a license - F-111 isn't actually a license number. Hope you knew that.) :P

Not meaning to stir up the argument, but seems like, if you expect people to take you seriously, you'd realize that this is relevant information to those of us who'd like to see the argument from your side... :S

KC
Signatures are the new black.

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>How about a restaurant where you ordered a steak, while the waiter
>brings you pasta? What if when you complain, the waiter tells you
> that a very experienced chef told him that your pasta is in fact a
> steak. And you can turn blue if you don't like it.

This is one thing that's been annoying me lately. Skydiving is NOT like renting a car, or going to a restaraunt, or buying a TV at Wal-Mart.

If you want a better analogy, it's like going to a restaraunt that a friend of yours runs, one where you help out cooking when there's a shortage of cooks, and in return he gives you meals for cost. One night you come in, he's in a tearing hurry, and you don't want to help out. Instead you order a steak. You get it (for $5) and complain about how it's cooked. You demand another one RIGHT NOW. Your friend is harried and can't do it. So you demand your money back.

I'd suspect you'd get it. And what you would lose there would be far, far more than the $5 you might have lost had you not been a pain in the butt.



Sadly is not that type of place. I have never receivedanything for free and never was given any favors. I was with other jumpers dumped off loads to make place for tandems many times though i.e: the place is rather like any poorly run service organization. No friendships with the owners, trust me.





Wanna bet Jimmy is spinnin' barrel rolls at this discussion! :o










The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

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