0
jraf

Titusville Manifest and Sky Gods new deployment altitudes

Recommended Posts

Ah yes I also heard of some understanding and cool locals who bought tickets up from the out of state visitors, kudos to you and the rest who helped out.

That is what the sport should be about, a "hood"
bortherhood and sisterhood, jumpers looking out
for other jumpers and willing to lend a helping hand to a member of the hood.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I'll vouch for jraf... he is, in fact, smarter than your average bear.

I expect that he did keep his calm while talking to the manifest woman because I think it amuses him to debate with people.



Debate with them and then talk about them like this behind their backs.

You may want to have a talk with Mr. Jraf, Skymama. After his sexist rant, I'm not sure he will be too welcome at any Fla. DZ with ladies at manifest.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is one thing that's been annoying me lately. Skydiving is NOT like renting a car, or going to a restaraunt, or buying a TV at Wal-Mart.

If you want a better analogy, it's like going to a restaraunt that a friend of yours runs, one where you help out cooking .



You are really going to have to explain this one to me Bill. Dzs are businesses, some DZOs will readily point this out. Nothing more and nothing less. Skydiving non-profit clubs may fit your description better.

If you are at a tandem mill were up-jumpers come second to one time customers are we in the kitchen cooking? I know some DZs treat some customers like family and some others like customers, thats life and not a problem as long as you don't get treated badly.

I've been lucky in that I've gotten extra fries with my steak for free on rare occasions and then have several different restaurants in my neighborhood for different cuisine when the kitchen is on the fritz.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
you're too blinded to see the point.

you don't want to discuss, you just want to vent 'cause it makes you feel better.

Hersize has about as much to do with your story as her ete colour.

Your posts are hollow.

too bad.[:/]
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


That is what the sport should be about, a "hood"
brotherhood and sisterhood, jumpers looking out
for other jumpers and willing to lend a helping hand to a member of the hood.



Can I get an "AMEN" !!?? Strato... whats going on here ? Is this really what skydiving in the US has come to? I am from outside the country and looking to take a skydiving vacation one day . . . is this what I can expect from some DZ's and jumpers in the USA??

Like I have said before more :D:D:D is needed badly ... American beer is too light, I'm sending some cases of Canadian beer, please distribute them to the most needy.

PS ... I've been accused of DLP, its not cool. Opinions about pull altitudes should be left to a whisper. We are all adults here, we take our lives into our own hands every time we suit up. Sometimes we push the limits and sometimes we make mistakes. Why are we trying to pretend that 1000 feet is like the difference between life and death? Last time I checked, none of us had any business being up in the air . . . its for the birds
:P:P

Smile people . . . and hug or some shit .
You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Dzs are businesses . . .

First DZ I ever jumped at had a central group of about 20 jumpers. On rainy weekends we'd spend half the day at local bars, hanging out and bragging on our 100 jumps. We'd do demos into beach clubs on occasion. When Vinnie got married we closed down the DZ, had a "funeral" where we buried his rig, and partied the rest of the day.

Next one I jumped at was Brown Field. Got my instructor ratings there. When I went through the AFF JCC, Buzz (the DZO) and I were partners. During the course Buzz was paranoid about going low; made me promise to help him out if the evaluator floated. Sure enough he floated - and I was the one who went low.

Later that year I had a first jump student who did pretty well and started going through the program. She started hanging around the DZ a lot, finished AFF, went to the local bar (the Argus) with us a lot. Buzz took an interest and they were married a few years later.

I spent a while as the chief instructor and S+TA there, running the AFF program, wheedling Buzz for small rigs for our small Japanese students, and actually getting paid to jump. When I actually priced it once I think I discovered I was making about $4 an hour, averaged over the year. But it was worth it.

Now I jump at Perris, mainly. We've gotten to know Pat and Melanie pretty well. Found out Melanie liked elephants. When we were in Thailand in '02, Scott and I set up a birthday party for her at the odd Irish bar across the street. Scott went out in a tuk-tuk and actually found an elephant for her party that night. I have something like 150 pictures of that night.

About a year ago, someone hammered into the landing area. Amy and I went out to the landing area to see if we could help. He made it. Later that day we found we had 15 minutes of tunnel time on the books.

Some may see DZ's as businesses, like rental car places or restaraunts. I watched several friends of mine die at DZ's, and was amazed at how everyone pulled together not for the dead person, but for people like me who were dealing with it. I've taught people to skydive, saved perhaps one life, and potentially had my life saved a few times by people who were more aware than I was. Most of my best friends are skydivers, and I met my wife skydiving. I guess, in my view, I've gotten more than a few free french fries from skydiving, and have given more than a few tips for good service. To me, that makes it something more than a business.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

whats going on here ? Is this really what skydiving in the US has come to? I am from outside the country and looking to take a skydiving vacation one day . . . is this what I can expect from some DZ's and jumpers in the USA??



I guess it would depend on where you go to visit and who you ask these days, everyones taste is different, I would hope that if you visit anywhere in the USA that you would find friendly DZO's and boogie host's and fellow jumpers who are glad you stop by to share the sky with them, invite you on loads even if your a newbie or no one knows you, show you a good time and have some laughs over a cold one at the end of the day, all the while your personal belongings are sitting unattended in your gear bag in the hanger or clubhouse, and when you pass out on the packing table or in a pile of unpacked canopies for the night, when you get up in the morning all your shit is still there and not found a new home, and when your time to visit has ran out those un-used lift tickets that didn't get ripped off will be gladly refunded to you with a smile and a "thanks for the visit hope to see you again".....

As for pulling low, I guess it depends on what you consider "low", if it was low enough someone like Scotty Carbone is ragging on your ass or you fire a cypres,or for that matter I rag on your ass then your fucking LOW! Hey I could care less if you want to smoke it down into the basement (to a point) but if you going to do so better have your shit together !

Have I ever been way in the basement, yep, didn't I get an ass chewing, few times, have I had two "D" license holders swear up and down I deployed a 1200 ft. when if fact I got out at 3.5 and pulled the ripcord at 2k with a retro rig without pack opening bands, so you had to give a good "check" and some elbow, YEP, was I open close to 1400 to 1500 ft, yep, but pack opening was at 2k. did I bust a BSR, nope! Did the S&TA meet me in the landing area, no but he did ask me where I "pulled" not where I opened after the two kept bitchen about it, yes he did, guess what? end of story, no ass chewing that time. But the time I did deploy at 1200ft is another story.:$:P
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


I had a jump where I was in the saddle at 2500 ft. thats high for me. But lo and behold, someone on the ground was convinced I pulled right before my AAD would have fired. It took my Neptune, and others to convince this man of thousands of jumps that he was being an idiot.

That's because you rarely get to see a good low pull anymore.:P:P:D:D:)

People don't know what a Grand Opening really looks like anymore. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To me, that makes it something more than a business.


Quote



I've been following this thread and the others that have been revolving about this general discussion Bill...

I'm kind of at the opinion that it must be a karma thing, in most cases.

Or maybe an attitude that comes out and is recognized by those that 'know'....those of us that have been there~done that. An unspoken, mutual understanding.

I've traveled not only the country but the world, and I always make it a point to try to stop at any DZ's I may be passing near.

I don't always bring a rig, sometimes don't even have 'proper' skydiver ID...but without exception, I've always been treated like a member of the 'Family'.

I've been offered a rig to jump, a 'job' for the day slinging meat, a place to stay...all from people I never met before and who absolutely didn't see me as just a 'customer'.
Heck, once in Norway I was invited on a demo, given gear, food & beer and they wouldn't take a dime...and I didn't even have a USPA card with me.

Certainly a dropzone is a 'business', but it's also so much more.

I often think of a dropzone as a type of a church, a sanctuary that anyone can go to and be accepted...as long as they 'believe'.

Here and in a couple of other threads, you've tried to explain in several ways, just what a dropzone and a DZO are...

You can't, I can't...

We know, but it's not something anyone can communicate to a 'non-believer'.;)

If a person is willing to only see a dropzone as a business and nothing more, then that's how they treat it and it will treat them.
If somewhere along the line, a switch is flipped and there evolves a deeper understanding...it too is recognized.

I have no problem with someone that's worried about getting a few bucks 'back' because the airplane sputtered or the clouds were 2000' lower that usual. If that's a major concern for them, then their life is much more controlled and orderly than mine, their priorities just lay in a different place than mine do....and that's okay.

For me anyway, skydiving is the very proof that in some way Karma does exist, because anything I've even done 'in' and 'for' the sport has come back to me three fold... without my ever having to look or ask.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Had the rule been posted and he had been made aware of it then if he chose not to jump I would not refund his tickets.



You would not refund his "UNUSED" tickets????

I think that stinks. And I don't care what the reason is if you didn't deliver the product he purchased (bad weather, slow jump day, disagreement on policy, poor service, no one to jump with, you just don't like that jumper and want him off your property)

other than that, I like your post, but that's pretty huge. I have a hard time believing that you have that policy.



OK once more for the hard of thinking.

If he has broken rules that he WAS informed about, and because he was repremanded for breaking the rules that he WAS informed of but doesnt agree with, HE decides not to jump again, no refund.

I am still willing to provide him the service, He was aware of the terms and conditions before he paid for the service, but he has chosen not to use it.

For Example

I buy membership to a gym, the rules state that I must wear shorts when using the steam room.

I go in the steam room without shorts, a complaint is made, I am told that I must wear shorts in the steam room.

I decide that I dont like the way I was spoken to, and I dont want to wear shorts in the steam room, and that I no longer want to use the gym. Am I entitled to a refund??? Not a chance.



If he has broken rules that he WAS NOT informed about and because he was repremanded for breaking the rules that he WAS NOT informed of and doesnt agree with those rules, HE decides not to jump again he should get a refund.

I am still willing to provide him the service, but I failed to lay down the complete terms and conditions, which had he know them initially would have changed his decision to jump here.

For Example

I buy membership to a gym, there are no rules concerning standards of dress when using the steam room.

I go in the steam room without shorts, a complaint is made, I am told that I must wear shorts in the steam room.

I decide that I dont like the way I was spoken to and that because I do not wish to wear shorts in the steam room I no longer want to use the gym. Am I entitled to a refund??? Definately.
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If he has broken rules that he WAS informed about, and because he was repremanded for breaking the rules that he WAS informed of but doesnt agree with, HE decides not to jump again, no refund.

I am still willing to provide him the service, He was aware of the terms and conditions before he paid for the service, but he has chosen not to use it.



HUH?!?:D:D:D

I thought I was buying lift tickets to altitude. So, in this scenario, you would still be willing to let the guy jump from your plane even though he was breaking your rules (not USPA rules)? What is the point in having the rule?
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Jraf

IMO this whole thread has been very entertaining (LMAO) My only regret is that a specific DZ was mentioned and the PA on the manifestor.

This lack of pro service is the direction of a lot of industries not just DZ.s Some people are "no" people (power and control) We stay away from them because we already know the answer:)
Guessing someones opening altitude from the ground or the air is a joke. The only real information you recieve by watching the opening height of the low canopy is the relative height diff between the high and low canopy.

Back in the day when everyone was opening at 2k (approx) it was very obvious if someone was sucking it down because you could see the space between their fingers in freefall.

If someone want to be a altitude Nazi (control freak) than get a stopwatch and time a person from opening to landing.Then there's none of this he said they said crap.

The gear and experience level and cost of jumping is increasing :o and the cash cows have changed. Sorry Jraf but your money is not as good as a tandam or a AFF. Your a visiting jumper not a potential worker bee or part of the local DZ groupies. As long as the tandems keep walking thru the door at some DZ's you'll be tolerated.

Some of the sad things I've read in this thread is the low pull ass chewing:S. The sport has change approx 10 -20 % folks die from lowpull, no pull but 4-5 times that many die due their inability to land a perfectly good parachute regardless of opening altitude. But HP landings are allowed at the majority of DZ's.

Why make a big deal about a unknown opening altitude? Power and control:S

Someone also made a very funny statement about USPA GM DZ's signing some kind of agreement about level of customer care:S:)
Some DZ's are better than other in taking car of jumpers. USPA doesn't have the resources to check individual DZ's to verify customer service so the market place forces take over, except for the Tandems and AFF.;)

Don't worry be happy:) As long as we're a paying customer and their competion between DZ's we get to choose which DZ's we will continue to jump at based on level of service and the vibes.

We were told thru a second party that a DZ didn't want us back:) To bad :)
I won't bad mouth the DZ but we sure as hell won't be going back either. First time shame on them second time shame on me.

Does the industry of skydiving really care if they lose some experienced jumpers due to poor service? If they did then things would change.

I will continue to spend my fun money where I can get the maximum return on my investment and time. Sorry to say skydiving is no longer it.:( But my three hounds are a lot of fun to hang with.:)
R.I.P.

B-7881
SCR 2719

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

If he has broken rules that he WAS informed about, and because he was repremanded for breaking the rules that he WAS informed of but doesnt agree with, HE decides not to jump again, no refund.

I am still willing to provide him the service, He was aware of the terms and conditions before he paid for the service, but he has chosen not to use it.



HUH?!?:D:D:D

I thought I was buying lift tickets to altitude. So, in this scenario, you would still be willing to let the guy jump from your plane even though he was breaking your rules (not USPA rules)? What is the point in having the rule?



I am not gonna stop someone jumping because they make a mistake once, if he continued to break the rules then thats different.

Its called benefit of the doubt.

Like letting it slide the first time a manifetser bites your head off, coz they may be having a bad day. ;)
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I'll vouch for jraf... he is, in fact, smarter than your average bear.

I expect that he did keep his calm while talking to the manifest woman because I think it amuses him to debate with people.



Debate with them and then talk about them like this behind their backs.

You may want to have a talk with Mr. Jraf, Skymama. After his sexist rant, I'm not sure he will be too welcome at any Fla. DZ with ladies at manifest.



Kevin, I don't know what your issue is if you don't hold stake in the Titusville dropzone. What do you want to prove? What is your point?

Do you want to convince everybody that they are worth shit and should bow to the DZO/Manifest God? Well good luck to you in your future endeavors.

Do you want to prove that I pulled low? Perhaps you don't have the personal integrity to admitt to things like that, but I do. And as I have done nothing wrong...go put your slipers on and drink hot chocolate in the recliner...;)

Please don't call me sexist. Perhaps you are sexist, but I am very far from. On that point, your remark seems juvenile to me.

I don't think I said anything behind anyones back. As a matter of fact if you read what I wrote carefully you would notice that the letter of complaint I sent to the USPA was coppied to Titusville

I am trying to perhaps move people to demand some of their rights. This is a sport and pastime. We spend our hard earned mney and should get some kind of respect from the people who's livelyhoods we support. What are you trying to prove here? Pray respond.
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You may want to have a talk with Mr. Jraf, Skymama. After his sexist rant, I'm not sure he will be too welcome at any Fla. DZ with ladies at manifest.



Nah, he's a big boy. I'm quite sure he can take care of himself. ;)
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
j-

Could you please answer my questions asked in Post #41 of this thread? I don't think they were answered and I'm still curious.

Thanks-
Another J

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote


I had a jump where I was in the saddle at 2500 ft. thats high for me. But lo and behold, someone on the ground was convinced I pulled right before my AAD would have fired. It took my Neptune, and others to convince this man of thousands of jumps that he was being an idiot.

That's because you rarely get to see a good low pull anymore.:P:P:D:D:)

People don't know what a Grand Opening really looks like anymore. ;)




I agree.Not that it's a bad think but I do get amused when I hear someone talking about a low pull.I saw some guy almost shit himself after watching Scotty once.The dude says,"That guy almost had a Cypress fire".I said,"No he didn't".He says,"yes he did". I say,"No he didn't cause he doesn't have one". :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is a thread about the quality of our life. I am a fun jumper. I am not a parachute industry professional, I don’t have ambitions of becoming a tandem master. I want to jump for fun. Bad service and bad attitudes of service providers spoil my fun.

There were these here that have seen me pull low, more that have heard of me pull low and are trying to convince me that I pilled low. To those I say: What is your point? I have mentioned several time that I have the personal integrity to admit when I do something wrong. I have not pulled low at Titusville, I have pulled lower than others, but well above my BSR assigned container opening altitude. That’s it.

Then there are those who say I should shut up and look stupid, how dare I contest something the manifest person said to me? Whoooah now! I come out to the DZ to have fun. I pay good money. A admit that there is a certain amount of informality allowed in the skydiving community and I have no problem with that. I however respectfully demand that the road go both ways. Bill von Novak makes a good point, but it does not adhere to all situations. There are DZs where the friendly atmosphere is there and you feel part of a community (some much larger DZs than Titusville have that feeling). When DZ is run without that then it is just a commercial operation and since there is a monetary transaction, I demand service for my money - courteous, professional service.

There are those who cry about the low wages of the manifest personnel. I do not ask them what they earn and don’t look into their wallets. It is their choice to work there. And to all you concerned with the slave wages of manifest – next time you are at your DZ talk to the DZO about it. Tell him you think its unfair that he exploit his employees who sometimes are fellow skydivers. Don’t look at me, I just jump for fun.

There are those very experienced skydivers who will cry wolf about my pulling low (whatever that means) but themselves come in for landing like bats from hell. They land with the wind after low altitude front riser hook turns. I can do that too. Not a big deal. I don’t criticize them, though their landing habits are far more dangerous than opening your container at BSR prescribed level. In my skydiving career I have never seen an accident caused by a low pull but I have personally seen people get badly hurt and die after making the slightest mistake on a high performance landing. We are talking about very, very experienced skydivers with thousands of jumps.

There are those who call me a sexist and question my integrity. To you dear friends I have nothing to say. I have contempt for such remarks.

The bottom line is that I am a fun jumper. The majority of us are fun jumpers. We don’t own DZs, we have other jobs and come out to jump on the weekend. We pay good, hard earned money for jumps. We support the DZOs with our money, we support the DZ staff with our money. We want to have fun and it is in that case all about us. It is our time to relax and unwind after work. It is time to have fun with friends.

The bottom line is our quality of life. We should require that the USPA hold affiliated DZ accountable for the service levels that they pledge to in the Skydiving Service Code of Conduct. I know of several jumpers who after a few years of jumping got burnt out by the lack of respect they were getting. A few years ago I myself was really disgruntled with the sky god attitudes, but I just chose to ignore them.

We should demand at least certain respect from DZOs and DZ staff. We should feel that we are relaxing and having fun. We should feel happy to spend our money at the DZ. We should not be abused just because we are skydivers. Respect us or we will talk to the USPA, the Better Business Bureau, and other fun jumpers and your business will go slow. If you can’t accept that, you have no business running a business. Because to most DZOs a drop zone is where they make money. Let us vote with our money and believe me service will get better!
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Do you take Skyride certificates, too?


I am going to step in here and answer for Teason on this question. NO he does not. Pops that is better left to another thread I think, and if you do a search you will find that Teason has had some very real issues with Skyride...now back to your regularly scheduled program.:)








Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0