bob.dino 0 #26 June 9, 2005 I know just enough to tell you I don't know how to tell a good pilot from a bad one. Things I like in a pilot: A cautious attitude Happy to answer my stupid questions Aware of what us fools in the back are doing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #27 June 9, 2005 The only people who can accurately judge a pilot as being a "good" one are other good pilots. It's not something you can put your finger on, but I guess the best way to describe it is "it takes one to know one". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #28 June 9, 2005 I do not have a double standard. I do think that all things being equal, an instructor who doesn't drink is better than one who does. Same thing with weed. I openly acknoledge there are many areas where I could do better. As it is, since I don't smoke weed I'm in better shape than many. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #29 June 9, 2005 I think you are making quite a stretch from having a beer to having a joint. If an instructor doesn't drink, that doesn't make hima good instructor. I have seen many good instructors have a beer at the end of the day, and I was right there with them having one too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #30 June 9, 2005 Of course it's a stretch. It's a degree. All else being equal, I'd prefer an instructor/pilot/cop/US Marine/doctor/lawyer who doesn't drink. Rarely is everything else equal. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #31 June 9, 2005 QuoteThere are too many pilots in skydiving who are too loose with booze. I'd prefer there be no question. Pilots who draw a plain and simple line and don't cross it earn my respect. How about the FAA? They drew a line, it's eight hours between your last drink and your next take-off. I agree that if your pilot is falling down drunk, and stops drinking eight hours before wheels up, thats a problem. A pilot who flies until 9 PM, and has a couple of beers unitl he is at eight hours before the first load, and stops right there, should be no different than the pilot who doesn't drink. The FAA isn't know for being soft or wishy-washy about things. If they say eight hours, there's a good bet that there's scientific data to back up that number. I read an interesting story about a reporter who spent a couple days flying with some fighter jocks. He mentioned how odd it was they every one fo them was drinking beer after beer during a late dinner one night, unitl 10 PM, at which point they all stopped drinking, to the point of not finishing the beer in front of them. They had a 6AM flight the next morning, so at 10, they're done. I would guess that those guys are 'good' pilots, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #32 June 9, 2005 QuoteI agree that if your pilot is falling down drunk, and stops drinking eight hours before wheels up, thats a problem. A pilot who flies until 9 PM, and has a couple of beers unitl he is at eight hours before the first load, and stops right there, should be no different than the pilot who doesn't drink. It's not falling down drunk pilots I worry about, because I don't think that's such a big problem and they're easy to spot. The problem I've seen is hungover pilots. The FAA 8 hour limit doesn't address that. Ultimately, as I said in the first post, it's degrees. I really don't like it when pilots are drinking at the bonfire after I go to bed. I'd rather not have pilots drinking at the bonfire in the first place. Ultimately, it'd be nice if I knew that a given pilot didn't drink at all. There'd be no question. When I was jumping in Upstate New York, the pilot would be at the nudie bar in Canada every friday and saturday night. At the time I didn't know any better, but now I'm happy to know that this guy isn't flying jumpers anymore. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bergen 0 #33 June 9, 2005 I've never flown jumpers, but I have been a professional pilot for 25 years. I've also been an accident investigator and done research into human factors in aviation. There are 3 essential skill sets a pilot must have. How good he is will be determined by his ability to master those skill sets AND practice them every second he spends operating his airplane. It is my belief BTW that most of what follows applies to being a good skydiver. The first skill set involves the pilot's ability to complete the common tasks of operating the airplane. Knowledge of systems, regulations, procedures, and good operating practices are essential. This also includes the basic airmanship skills that make someone smooth and efficient in the air. (Yanking and banking.) Specific types of operations would require somewhat different skills in this category. A jump-pilot flying a C-182 requires different set of skills than a Naval Aviator flying F-18 night missions in the Gulf. I spend most of my time looking out the window, monitoring the autopilot, and drinking rancid coffee. But every now and then I have to land an airplane in a 20kt crosswind on a short snow-covered runway after a 14 hour day. Different operations have different demands. I'm not going to list all the specific skills required. Yes, you do have to be able to do a takeoff, but you also have to ensure the electrical system is functioning properly. Which one of those skills is most important probably depends on which angel is manning God's operations center that day. The second skill set that is required but not often used is an extension of the first. It simply involves the pilot's ability to respond to unusual situations when they occur. Unusual situations run the full range--minor system problems, (hydraulics,) major system failures (engine failures,) and hazardous meteorological conditions are good examples. This is a more interesting category because it not only involves an extension of the basic skills required in the first category, but it involves the pilot's ability to recognize potentially dangerous situations and make decisions to resolve them. The final category is the most interesting, most complex, and most important in my view. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to minimize the ability to land the plane, but landing is a relatively simple (not easy, simple) skill to master. A pilot must have the ability to continually make good operational decisions to keep him out of trouble. Bad decisions and lack of situational awareness are responsible for over 2/3 of all aircraft accidents. Being 50 kts fast ten miles from the runway is no big deal. Being 20 kts fast 2 miles from the runway just might be a big deal. This category is equivalent to a skydiver who decides to land in the middle of the landing area on a windy day versus the skydiver who decides to land near the hangar. Who is the better pilot? (And we never have a parade for the guy who sits it out.) You never hear about the accident that didn't happen. You usually don't know how it was prevented. How's that for positive reinforcement? This is a very personal category, and it is by far the most important. This is the category where honesty and personal integrity come in. Can I admit I screwed up? Can I admit I should be somewhere else right now? Can I admit that the safety margins are not satisfactory? This is where neurosis, peer pressure, ego, fear, denial, hesitation, stubbornness, rigidity, showing off, and complacency show up and ruin our day. I'll take an honest pilot (or skydiver) over the ace of the base, any day. Fall in peace. Bergen ATP SA-227, DC-9 (80), 757/767 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #34 June 9, 2005 QuoteThe FAA 8 hour limit doesn't address that. Yes it does. The rule is 8 hours and no residue effects. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #35 June 9, 2005 Now that right there is...strange. I have found the opposite to be true. I guess you have a standard so , good for you! So what is it that you prefer? Is it the illusion of control? I'm not being a smart ass(well not completely) I really want to know, why is someone who abstains superior? Lets get the parameters straight, we're talking about people who aren't performing thire duties under the influence, we're talking about people who feel the need to let control slip in the appropriate venue.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamUK 3 #36 June 9, 2005 Quotethe pilot would be at the nudie bar in Canada Is your concern that looking at nekkid girls would make him go blind?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #37 June 9, 2005 ===================================== [in reply to] When I was jumping in Upstate New York, the pilot would be at the nudie bar in Canada every friday and saturday night. At the time I didn't know any better, but now I'm happy to know that this guy isn't flying jumpers anymore. ===================================== I wonder if you're referring to a certain pilot I also knew from Upstate New York-near-Canada. If so, we all felt he was a pretty squared-away pilot, and I still think he was. I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I think you're going overboard on this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #38 June 9, 2005 QuoteI wonder if you're referring to a certain pilot I also knew from Upstate New York-near-Canada. If so, we all felt he was a pretty squared-away pilot, and I still think he was. I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I think you're going overboard on this. I think you have no idea who I'm talking about. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #39 June 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteI wonder if you're referring to a certain pilot I also knew from Upstate New York-near-Canada. If so, we all felt he was a pretty squared-away pilot, and I still think he was. I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I think you're going overboard on this. I think you have no idea who I'm talking about. _Am Maybe, maybe not. I just didn't want someone who was regarded as a good pilot have his reputation slammed in a way that might make him recognizable to some people who were at a certain DZ back then, w/o him having the opportunity to reply. That aside, I still think that a good pilot need not totally abstain from all acohol 24/7 and can use mature judgment and profesionalism to prevent himself from drinking so much that he's hungover the next morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #40 June 9, 2005 QuoteThat aside, I still think that a good pilot need not totally abstain from all acohol 24/7 and can use mature judgment and profesionalism to prevent himself from drinking so much that he's hungover the next morning Now that is a reasonable answer! Pilots are people, as much as some would prefer, they're not robots. One of the things I do is when our pilot is done for the day after a long day of flying is bring him a beer after he's tied the plane down. He'll hang out for about an hour and have a couple of beers, then he's driving off to his house for a good nights sleep for the next day of flying. That shows exerpience and professionalism on his part. Experience since he knows that he needs his rest and he knows his limits (then stays well with in them) so he can perform the next day.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liverboy 0 #41 June 9, 2005 amen to that, I'll accept a cold one at the end of a long day for sure Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liverboy 0 #42 June 9, 2005 do you drink the night before you jump / take up students / tandems / video ??? Most of us bust our asses to make life easy for you guys...so let us have a beer once in while Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #43 June 10, 2005 Quote do you drink the night before you jump Sometimes yes, I have my limits and no after effects and residue on the next morning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #44 June 10, 2005 It depends on what perspective you're taking when you say 'good pilot'... As a young and impressionable sky-jumper, I liked the pilot who: Quote1. A pilot who doesn't bitch when you tell them to go around (they have to understand that you can see more than they can). Uh-huh. Quote3. One who will give you an accurate report on the weather conditions (the plane may fly through a lot of wx, but you are the one jumping out). I always liked it when they 'felt' winds and adjusted and let us know... Quote 4. One who feels Positve and Negative G's are a No No (They usually don't own the plane, and you have to deal with the situation too if a wing comes off). Well personally, I just didn't like my audible going off with neg g's... Quote5. I pilot who will look out the window of the aircraft instead of being glued to the GPS (believe it or not there are many other planes out there, and the big sky theory is getting smaller and smaller by the day. Jumper's should not hesitate to call out other air traffic to the "Throttle Yoke Actuator" (mechanic's term for a pilot)). I appreciated this too, and jumping from 182's most o' the time, I liked to take an active role in watching for traffic. Also: I loved the pilot that would actively look for a hole to get us out... I loved the pilot that went around for me twice, as it was clear to jump by reg's, but I was not comfortable with the patch o' earth I saw down the hole... I LOVE pilot's that give the 'DOOR' with plenty of time to look out, make sure it's clear, climb out (182, remember), and give a count...all before your spot passes by (I have encountered the extremely rare, "Door" with our spot directly below before I can latch the door up. <--Then again, if we can't pull it off, a go 'round is offered. I love a pilot that tells you why we're circling..."Seattle says traffic...wait five minutes". I love a pilot that gets involved with us skyjumpers and asks how they can make things easier/better for us (that is so incredible, and hopefully, many of us return the favor by asking the same. On a student pilot side though, I love the pilot that explains what they are doing while we're up there...and WHY they are doing whatever it was they are doing. I also love the pilots that take the time to impart some wisdom on a silly student pilot that has a plethora of reallllly basic kind of questions...and then makes sure that I actually understand the answer, too! ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilmshurst 0 #45 June 10, 2005 One that gets me to 2K safely - after that I have my own nylon 'aircraft'. Zero g's, wing-overs, and low passes are all good The only thing worse than a cold toilet seat is a warm toilet seat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #46 June 11, 2005 Quote One that gets me to 2K safely - after that I have my own nylon 'aircraft'. Just because you have a parachute and are above 2,000 ft, does not mean you will be able to exit if there is a problem, such as a spin. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilmshurst 0 #47 June 11, 2005 One that gets me to 2K safely (including still in a straight and level configuration) - after that I have my own nylon 'aircraft'. Zero g's, wing-overs, and low passes are all good Edited to add sum more shit The only thing worse than a cold toilet seat is a warm toilet seat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilmshurst 0 #48 June 11, 2005 Skydivers are generally taught that they are ultimately responsible for their own safety. Interesting thinks me that people in this thread seem to be placing some weight of responsibility upon jump pilots. Realistically, skydivers do generally rely upon DZ safety officials, riggers, pilots, and maybe packers - especially when new to the sport. The only thing worse than a cold toilet seat is a warm toilet seat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #49 June 11, 2005 QuoteThat aside, I still think that a good pilot need not totally abstain from all acohol 24/7 and can use mature judgment and profesionalism to prevent himself from drinking so much that he's hungover the next morning "The man that abstains from wine to the extent that it has a detrimental effect on his character is not without blame." -- Italian Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #50 June 11, 2005 Quote2. One who doesn't climb the plane with the stall horn going off all the time (What is gained from that). Hearing the horn scream every time I rode up in the 206 with 4 other fatasses is something I look forward to never doing again... I cannot emphasize how easy it is to become complacent with this. And yet, my dumbass never refused a ride on that plane. Stupid now that I look at it in hindsight, you know? .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
