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Hooknswoop

Good Pilot/Bad Pilot

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I understand that Bill, but there is no reason for a 182 or a 206 that is within weight and balance to have the stall horn go off constantly during a climb to altitude (turbulance excluded).
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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The situation I am thinking of is a short, rough field with obstacles to clear.



That is the field I fly from. I've done considerable short/soft field work with a 182 or 206. Just this spring the runway was very wet/soft the first weekend we were open. All takeoffs were classic "soft field" takeoffs...stall horn blaring, liftoff at minimum airspeed. One thing however, if properly done the stall horn quits almost as soon as you're off the ground. To keep the AOA that high hinders your ability to climb due to the drag produced.

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The fact is that vx may not be attainable in cases.



Are you saying Vx may not be obtainable until after clearing the obstacle?
If so you should probably stay in the hangar and drink beer while the mechanic takes the wings off so you can truck the airplane to a longer runway. IMO it would be poor judgement to attempt the takeoff....expecially with paying passengers.

For those that don't know:

Vy = Best rate of climb...the most altitude in the least time

Vx = Best angle of climb...the most altitude in the least distance.

Jump planes should normally be flown at Vy/Best Rate.

If I was on a load and the pilot had the stall horn sounding steadily/constantly during the climb I would ask him to make a pass over the DZ as soon as he had 2k or so and I would get out. The guy is trying to kill you. I've flown over 3500 loads in 182/206 a/c. The stall horn never sounds except sometimes on takeoff or if we get a sharp hit of turbulence.
SmugMug

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A climb at Vx or Vy may activate the stall horn momentarily in gusty/turbulent conditions.

If the stall horn is sounding continously in the climb then there are two possibilities. Either you are below Vx (inefficient) or the stall horn is not calibrated properly (very common on Cessna's).

Personally, I think Angle of Attack Indicators are much better devices than the stall warning systems on most GA aircraft, which in theory rely on AOA but in actuality are affected by airspeed as well.

Inexpensive AOA indicators are made for experimental aircraft, and they work very well, and provide much more useful information, but, unfortunately they aren't a option for replacing existing technology on "certified" aircraft.

Pilots need to remember that Vx and Vy change with weight and balance and density altitude conditions as well. It is possible to be at published Vx and be much closer to a stall than you realize - and not getting max performance.

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I love it when the stall warning horn goes off and there are newbies in the plane:ph34r: You can just see their lives flash before their eyes.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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My experience is based off of departures utilizing full aircraft performance. At such speeds, 'small' gusts can change the flow enough to get the stall horn going momentarily on the initial climb out (particularily when getting over the obstacle).

Properly done- the stall horn does quit shortly after liftoff, agreed- I was attempting to argue the point that the stall horn blaring is an unavoidable part of takeoffs in some situations- complaining about it, or refusing to fly in such a situation dosen't really make sense- the pilot doesn't want to pile in any more than the next guy.

I take back my comment about vx being unattainable- that was typed before proper thought was give- 'late at night' is my feeble excuse.

Blue skies

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A lot of really bad pilots in skydiving. Some just lack experience. That said, there a few REALLY good ones. Mike Mullins for instance...and a few others.

If your pilot is riding the horn on takeoff/climbout, he/she is not maximizing the performance of the aircraft, wasting fuel, and I fear may be one that would elect to turn back to the runway, stall/spin/crash, rather than take a belly first landing in the trees. (Surviveable)

As a pilot, I realize that some are in it because they love it, some are building time, and some have skils lacking, or personalities that are not condusive to getting better paying flying jobs.

My main concern, it seems, is their ability to handle any emergency, and affording the lowest risk outcome. Do the timebuilders that are "checked out" in a King Air know the pitch attitude to achieve Vyse (one engine out) when they're at max gross weight? Do they realize that it'll be a boot full of rudder, and the aelirons, or rather the overuse of such will kill everyone on board.

I think that the proficient pilots out there won't be offended, and I commend their professionalism, but perhaps the "checkout procedures, and recurrent training" need some kind of self imposed industry standard. Just because someone gets a multi-engine rating in a Piper Seminole, doesn't mean he/she could handle a full blown emergency in a turbine. (Yet according to the FAA, they're qualified.) Just my two cents, and I welcome constructive criticism.

ATP, Chief Pilot, Corporate

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Stall warning horns scare me.

Many years ago, I used to fly with a jump pilot who considered a blaring horn all the way to altitude a normal procedure. He explained that the horn was imroperly adjusted. I suggested to him that he ask the mechanic to adjust the horn.
I was much relieved when he quit flying for us.

The bottom line is that stall warning horns scare me!

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Stall warning horns scare me.

Many years ago, I used to fly with a jump pilot who considered a blaring horn all the way to altitude a normal procedure. He explained that the horn was imroperly adjusted. I suggested to him that he ask the mechanic to adjust the horn.
I was much relieved when he quit flying for us.

The bottom line is that stall warning horns scare me!




How can you maintain best rate of climb with the stall horn going on? You can't. Find out what airspeed he is supposed to maintain for that aircraft and if he can't hold it within 5 knots fire him. That is BS.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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Stall warning horns scare me.

Many years ago, I used to fly with a jump pilot who considered a blaring horn all the way to altitude a normal procedure. He explained that the horn was imroperly adjusted. I suggested to him that he ask the mechanic to adjust the horn.
I was much relieved when he quit flying for us.

The bottom line is that stall warning horns scare me!

On most cessnas the stall horn isn't really an "adjustment" item as far as I know. When the wing begins to stall, it creates negative pressure on the leading edge of the wing where the stall horn opening is, causing the air to blow out of the opening. This air blows through a "whistle" and that is the horn you hear. There are no electronics or anything that could be adjusted. You can walk up to a cessna on the ground without power or electronics, suck on the stall warning opening and set off the stall horn in the cockpit. Bottom line, if the stall horn is going off, the airflow over the wing is being disrupted and a stall is immenant. There are other planes that use an electrical pressure switch for the stall warning and those will act a little differently.

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The bottom line is that stall warning horns scare me!



I can hear stall horn on riding a C207T in summer when the winds a bit turbulent. I don't think it could be so relevant for pilot's evaluation.

I found more problems with a pilot turning late to jump run. It was impossible to give effective correction anymore.

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What a load of bollox this thread is.
Some people have got the right idea. It is mainly like the newly qualified jumper telling the new student what to do and I know how much that pisses off the people who actually know what is what.

First point that is raised over and over is the stall warning going off. In a heavily loaded plane (almost every jump plane) it will go off whenever there is turbulence, this is normal and if the plane is being flown at the beast rate of climb it will happen. The higher you go the more likely this is going to be as the speed for best rate reduces. If you dont like the sound wear ear plugs. If it is going off constantly in smooth air then it is either calibrated wrong or you are flying too slow. It is not dangerous for the horn to go off, it is an indication just like every other instrument.

Second one although only raised once I think just goes to show how much crap is being posted. One guy said that a good pilot lands without power every time. What the hell is that meant to mean?? Please explain as I have no idea what you are talking about.

Why not start a thread for people with less than 10 jumps to talk to students about how to skydive.

It is very hard too tell who a good pilot is unless they have had to prove themselves in a really crappy situation, not necisarily landing in a field after their engine has quit as to me that demonstrates the ability to be a pilot not necisarily a good one. Almost like saying a good jumper is one who can have a mal and live.

Also saying a pilot who can have an engine failure at 200ft and bring it down safetly is a bit out there. I have flown jumpers at a place where if that happened the only option would be to put it down in the 70-80ft high trees in the forest.

If you don't know anything about flying (riding in a plane every weeked dosen't count) you probably shouldn't post as you dont know anything about flying.

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Ya'll are making this way to complicated. A good pilot is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid situations where he has to use his superior skills. ;) The best pilots I know, including the instructors who taught me, were flat out boring to ride with. Nothing exciting ever happened.:)

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Just short of 3000, mostly flying jumpers in single pistons, single turbines and twin turbines. A few hundred instructing and most recently low (250ft) and high (16K) level survey work for oil companies and governments.
I may have a few hours but like anything it dosen't mean I am any good or know what I am talking about.
Can you tell me why it is bad for the stall horn to be going off during the climb as you said earlier that it is the sign of a bad pilot. As you jump in Colorado or cal city I guess it can be bumpy sometimes and I bet the density alt is quite high. What do you think?
Should I tell you what makes a good rigger. I have packed a few so I guess my opinion is valid.
So when you said earlier about positive and negative g being a no no what speed are we talking when this happens, let me guess you have no idea what difference speed makes to it. Or the sort of oil/fuel pumps or pretty much anything at all.
Don't mean to be rude but I wouldn't dream of commenting on rigging issues that I didn't know anything about even though I have seen lots of riggers at work. As you are a senior rigger I guess you can understand my point.
Just thought I should add that there is nothing wrong with asking why something is the way it is or why or how or anything like that as it is you in the plane. Also nothing wrong with asking someone who knows about something if what you were told is correct. Also nothing wrong with bringing your concerns to someone who can do something about a bad pilot if after research you know something is wrong. It is a safety thing so very important if a pilot dosent know what they are doing they shouldn't do it anymore. It is just this thread has lots of views that are wrong and this is not the way to find out if your pilot is good or not.
If you dont know anything about flying you cannot tell if a pilot is good or not unless you talk to someone who does.(edit: and that probably wont help as it can be very hard to tell)
An example of this is when I was flying a caravan and an instructor with over 13,000 jumps had a go at me for being crap because in a 25kt cross wind after take off the plane yawed after I released the pressure from the rudder. The other pilot didn't use the rudder to correct properly so they never felt the yaw before. I was new so I was the crap pilot.

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So are you saying that only pilots can comment on pilots, and only people with 1000s of jumps have anything worthwhile to say about skydiving?.

Using this reasoning, unless you are a professional chef with years of experience, you don't know anything about cooking, so you can't comment on the food in a restaurant.

Skydivers may not be able to tell what makes a pilot 'good' or 'bad', but they can say the things that they value in a pilot. Most of the posts in this thread seem to be just that, i.e. skydivers saying what they value in a pilot. I hope that most pilots are interested in what their passengers think of them and want from them. All the pilots I have met (in the short time I have been skydiving) have been friendly, professional, and easy to talk to, especially about flying.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

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Using this reasoning, unless you are a professional chef with years of experience, you don't know anything about cooking, so you can't comment on the food in a restaurant.



No, he's saying that unless you know how to cook, you probably shouldn't presume to criticize another's cooking methods.

I thought seaweedknees' post was interesting and insightful. But then, I don't know a fuckin' thing about flying. Maybe he's just bullshitting me :P.

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>Using this reasoning, unless you are a professional chef with years
>of experience, you don't know anything about cooking . . .

Well, if you've never cooked before, it's safe to say you don't know anything about cooking.

>so you can't comment on the food in a restaurant.

Not at all! "I don't like this hamburger" is a perfectly valid comment, even if you've never cooked before. But if you know nothing about cooking and tell the cook "I think you should cook hamburgers in the microwave; I heard somewhere that's better" expect to be laughed at.

Lots of skydivers have opinions about which pilots they like; that's fine. But unless they are pilots themselves, best take their recommendations/slams with a grain of salt.

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No I am not saying that.

I am saying that to think you have enough experience to tell if one is good or bad is very shakey if all you do is jump.

Its like the jump pilot who has never jumped thinking he can tell who is a dangerous jumper. Yes he probably knows more than your average non jumper but probably not enough to be able to comment without researching it first by talking to someone who has lots of experience as a jumper and knows that dangerous jumper in particular.

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i have flown with good and bad pilots - there are some that just scared me - i think you can usually tell the bad ones but sometimes the bad ones can trick you into thinking they are good - there are 2 pilots that flew at the dz's i have jumped at that i was glad to get out of the plane - i try to ride right seat with most of the pilots at my dz to talk to them and ask them questions about flying jumpers - i may not be a pilot but if the pilot can't give good answers quickly i wonder how fast they can fix a bad situation if it should happen - i like pilots that can feel even the smallest of changes in flight caracturistics - some can't feel a 500 fpm change - these little things bother me - i want a pilot that can feel small changes in flight attitude and know emergency procedures without a long thought process

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I agree that there may be some 'crappy' pilots out there, especially at Cessna Dz's... In fact, it's probably more likely that if you jump a Cessna, you'll run into a 'crappy' pilot, or already have. A jumperdumper job is one of the bottom rungs of the aviation career ladder. So naturally, it's where pilots go to build experience. Generally they do not come to such a job as a hotshot with 5000 hours and two engine failures under their belt. If they had 5000 hours, they'd be flying something that goes roar instead of put-put-put-put.... (hence here I exclude turbine dz's). In short... a cessna dz is where an inexperienced pilot (ie what you may call a 'bad' pilot) becomes experienced (ie what you may call 'good'). It's just the way it goes. DZ owners know this- it's what their business depends on... jumpers, probably not so much.

In regards to thinking fast on their feet- you're absolutely right. Some pilots do it better than others. Some pilots can't do it at all- and some end up in accident reports. I also agree that a pilot who knows their stuff when questioned makes their passengers a lot more comfy. Speaking of which... a good question to quiz your new pilot with is: "400' on the climb out, engine quits dead; where's your out?" They should be able to rattle off a field or road off the departure end in about two seconds.

To go back to the origional topic: traits of the pilot type I enjoy flying with are:

1. Goes about their work confidently
2. Touches down with the upwind main wheel first on landing
3. They do not have trouble saying 'no' to a flight when they feel uncomfortable with certain aspects, or wwhen conditions are unfavorable. --You wouldn't believe the number of pilots who don't do this. A recent example is a certain incident north of the border here where a diverdriver flew into a thunderstorm.B|

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