Zeppo 0 #1 November 27, 2006 I'll tell you about my day today. I went out to do a few jumps today at a DZ that I've never been to before. We were estimating that the clouds were at a few thousand feet, so a load was sent up (C-206). I managed to be on the first load. The clouds were at about 2,900'. At this point in my jumping career and having been trained by AFF, I'm not that comfortable jumping at any less than 3'500, so I landed with the plane. I went up a couple loads later, with clouds at 5k and I jumped and landed fine (which at least gave me my fix for the day ) About mid afternoon, after a load just came down from 4k, I decided to head up again. We reached the ceiling at about 2'400 or so, and again, everyone jumped. Now, I'm not ashamed that I stayed with the plane but I'm curious what others are comfortable jumping in and why. Do you just follow the USPA recommendations, or do you just follow your instincts?What goes up, must come DOWN!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #2 November 27, 2006 As low as the pilot orders me out at .... or 2000 feet.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #3 November 27, 2006 I have done hop & pops from 1600 ft but I don't recommend it.You need to have you head screwed on right which does not make since if your getting out at 1600 ft.Well then there was the bridge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #4 November 27, 2006 My minimum comfort level for a hop 'n' pop - 3000 ft. However, if pilot says "Get the hell out" - 1000 ft and then go for reserve and pray things don't go to hell in a handbasket.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simplyputsi 0 #5 November 27, 2006 QuoteMy minimum comfort level for a hop 'n' pop - 3000 ft. However, if pilot says "Get the hell out" - 1000 ft and then go for reserve and pray things don't go to hell in a handbasket. ditto!!!Skymama's #2 stalker - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #6 November 27, 2006 You left out 1000 feet . . . If I'm jumping an F-111 7 cell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 261 #7 November 27, 2006 My normal minimum exit altitude: 1800', whether with a fast or slow canopy (Cypres off for the snivelly ones). While it is fun to joke about the AFF/PFF grads who won't exit or pull lower (even if 'legal'), let's face it, many people will want to approach anything new in skydiving with a little caution and without being highly uncomfortable. Nothing says you have to jump if you personally don't like the weather. That being said, many consider it good to be comfortable with getting out lower. I'd suggest doing things like: a) Throw oneself out of the plane a few times at a still comfortable altitude and hopefully find that it doesn't take very long to confirm that one is stable to pull, or that even with just throwing oneself out, it doesn't take long to get stable, belly to the wind, before the pull. b) Work one's way down in exit altitude when one has the chance, until comfortable down to say 2500'. c) Run the freefall numbers to remind oneself how little altitude is lost in the first few seconds (eg, CSPA charts show only 138 ft in 3 sec.) Here's my experience from another Ontario Cessna DZ which you can compare your experience to. Two weekends back a small bunch of us did hop and pops all day from 2000'-2200'. The group included those with fast, snivelly canopies. (Extra airspeed on exit helps a lot.) I figure that (excluding very low experience jumpers), the most conservative bunch of jumpers at the DZ would prefer no less than 3000', and might choose not go up unless they were sure of 2500'. Nobody bugs them for preferring a little more margin. But most experienced jumpers at the DZ will jump from 2200' (the CSPA limit) if that's where they are at and can't go higher. I think only half would choose to keep going up in those conditions (assuming they didn't just want to wait for a better day). There are things one will do occasionally but not make a habit of. Very occasionally over the years a load might jump from 1800' if that's all they got, but jumping would then stop. Anything lower would be regarded by all on the DZ as silly and wouldn't be condoned. Maybe good for bragging and campfire tales (like the couple long-delay wingsuit jumps from 2000' that one weekend) but not part of regular relatively low risk skydiving. Edit: I'm hoping we can keep this thread pretty much focused on the limits for "regular jumping", not 'crazy jump tales', BASE canopies, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #8 November 27, 2006 I will say 2000' because that is what the rules say.... I can even show the pilot my wrist altimeter... says 2000'.. even though his is reading 1600' You gotta LOVE ground rush when you are still on the step of a C-182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quack 0 #9 November 27, 2006 We had to bail once at around 1600' (aircraft problem) but we were also on Lightning 126's and used to competition CRW exits. Being comfortable at lower altitudes is a good thing, if there is some sort of emergency. But there's a reason USPA has a 2000' minimum, to give you proper time to deal with things (CSPA is set at 2200', but the extra 200' makes little practical difference). I'm a supporter of H + P's from 3000' to 3500'. Many skydivers have told me they are very uncomfortable with low altitude exits, because they've always jumped from higher up. I think some of it stems from being unfamiliar with it. Some of it is not realizing that you're also at subterminal, and thus have a bit more time to deal with the shit if it happens. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zeppo 0 #10 November 27, 2006 QuoteWe had to bail once at around 1600' (aircraft problem) but we were also on Lightning 126's and used to competition CRW exits. Being comfortable at lower altitudes is a good thing, if there is some sort of emergency. But there's a reason USPA has a 2000' minimum, to give you proper time to deal with things (CSPA is set at 2200', but the extra 200' makes little practical difference). I'm a supporter of H + P's from 3000' to 3500'. Many skydivers have told me they are very uncomfortable with low altitude exits, because they've always jumped from higher up. I think some of it stems from being unfamiliar with it. Some of it is not realizing that you're also at subterminal, and thus have a bit more time to deal with the shit if it happens. I think that if the pilot told me to get out...I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'd likely be scared half to death, but I would still exit. From the advice I read here, I think that over my next jumps, I should start working on building my comfort at lower altitudes. I suppose it could start with lower deployment from high altitude jumps and go from there.What goes up, must come DOWN!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #11 November 27, 2006 QuoteI suppose it could start with lower deployment from high altitude jumps and go from there. WHOA sport... hang on .. you will be at Terminal velocity doing that... Just go up and get out of the plane on a hop and pop at 3500 to 4000'.. the dynamics are completely different from a subterminal opening and a full speed terminal opening..try it you like it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quack 0 #12 November 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteI suppose it could start with lower deployment from high altitude jumps and go from there. WHOA sport... hang on .. you will be at Terminal velocity doing that... Just go up and get out of the plane on a hop and pop at 3500 to 4000'.. the dynamics are completely different from a subterminal opening and a full speed terminal opening..try it you like it... Agreed. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #13 November 27, 2006 I'd suggest doing things like: a) Throw oneself out of the plane a few times at a still comfortable altitude and hopefully find that it doesn't take very long to confirm that one is stable to pull, or that even with just throwing oneself out, it doesn't take long to get stable, belly to the wind, before the pull. b) Work one's way down in exit altitude when one has the chance, until comfortable down to say 2500'. c) Run the freefall numbers to remind oneself how little altitude is lost in the first few seconds (eg, CSPA charts show only 138 ft in 3 sec.) Very sensible and realistic. In older days we used to do hop & pops under cloud ceilings at 2 grand with rounds and older squares that opened a lot faster than today's canopies. Nowadays, even with my Pilot, I'd still jump from 2 grand if that was all I could get. But with a Cypres, I personally wouldn't go lower, because I always board the plane with my AAD turned on and don't want to mess around with somebody trying to shut the thing off from over my shoulder. From an exit below 2000 ft, I'm not sure whether I might have a 2 out situation, which is something I hope I don't ever have. That said, an exit from 2000 ft still leaves you as much, or more time than a terminal deployment between 2500 - 3000 ft. And though the opening may take more time, it still takes less distance. Your approach of working your way down to, and getting comfy with 2500 is a sensible approach. Those of us who started on static line have always been more comfortable with the lower altitudes, since they were always our baseline. But people learn better in gradual steps, rather than having "the truth" rubbed in their faces, so I think taking hop & pops down in 500 ft increments at least down to 2500 ft is a good idea. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! 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pchapman 261 #7 November 27, 2006 My normal minimum exit altitude: 1800', whether with a fast or slow canopy (Cypres off for the snivelly ones). While it is fun to joke about the AFF/PFF grads who won't exit or pull lower (even if 'legal'), let's face it, many people will want to approach anything new in skydiving with a little caution and without being highly uncomfortable. Nothing says you have to jump if you personally don't like the weather. That being said, many consider it good to be comfortable with getting out lower. I'd suggest doing things like: a) Throw oneself out of the plane a few times at a still comfortable altitude and hopefully find that it doesn't take very long to confirm that one is stable to pull, or that even with just throwing oneself out, it doesn't take long to get stable, belly to the wind, before the pull. b) Work one's way down in exit altitude when one has the chance, until comfortable down to say 2500'. c) Run the freefall numbers to remind oneself how little altitude is lost in the first few seconds (eg, CSPA charts show only 138 ft in 3 sec.) Here's my experience from another Ontario Cessna DZ which you can compare your experience to. Two weekends back a small bunch of us did hop and pops all day from 2000'-2200'. The group included those with fast, snivelly canopies. (Extra airspeed on exit helps a lot.) I figure that (excluding very low experience jumpers), the most conservative bunch of jumpers at the DZ would prefer no less than 3000', and might choose not go up unless they were sure of 2500'. Nobody bugs them for preferring a little more margin. But most experienced jumpers at the DZ will jump from 2200' (the CSPA limit) if that's where they are at and can't go higher. I think only half would choose to keep going up in those conditions (assuming they didn't just want to wait for a better day). There are things one will do occasionally but not make a habit of. Very occasionally over the years a load might jump from 1800' if that's all they got, but jumping would then stop. Anything lower would be regarded by all on the DZ as silly and wouldn't be condoned. Maybe good for bragging and campfire tales (like the couple long-delay wingsuit jumps from 2000' that one weekend) but not part of regular relatively low risk skydiving. Edit: I'm hoping we can keep this thread pretty much focused on the limits for "regular jumping", not 'crazy jump tales', BASE canopies, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #8 November 27, 2006 I will say 2000' because that is what the rules say.... I can even show the pilot my wrist altimeter... says 2000'.. even though his is reading 1600' You gotta LOVE ground rush when you are still on the step of a C-182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quack 0 #9 November 27, 2006 We had to bail once at around 1600' (aircraft problem) but we were also on Lightning 126's and used to competition CRW exits. Being comfortable at lower altitudes is a good thing, if there is some sort of emergency. But there's a reason USPA has a 2000' minimum, to give you proper time to deal with things (CSPA is set at 2200', but the extra 200' makes little practical difference). I'm a supporter of H + P's from 3000' to 3500'. Many skydivers have told me they are very uncomfortable with low altitude exits, because they've always jumped from higher up. I think some of it stems from being unfamiliar with it. Some of it is not realizing that you're also at subterminal, and thus have a bit more time to deal with the shit if it happens. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeppo 0 #10 November 27, 2006 QuoteWe had to bail once at around 1600' (aircraft problem) but we were also on Lightning 126's and used to competition CRW exits. Being comfortable at lower altitudes is a good thing, if there is some sort of emergency. But there's a reason USPA has a 2000' minimum, to give you proper time to deal with things (CSPA is set at 2200', but the extra 200' makes little practical difference). I'm a supporter of H + P's from 3000' to 3500'. Many skydivers have told me they are very uncomfortable with low altitude exits, because they've always jumped from higher up. I think some of it stems from being unfamiliar with it. Some of it is not realizing that you're also at subterminal, and thus have a bit more time to deal with the shit if it happens. I think that if the pilot told me to get out...I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'd likely be scared half to death, but I would still exit. From the advice I read here, I think that over my next jumps, I should start working on building my comfort at lower altitudes. I suppose it could start with lower deployment from high altitude jumps and go from there.What goes up, must come DOWN!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #11 November 27, 2006 QuoteI suppose it could start with lower deployment from high altitude jumps and go from there. WHOA sport... hang on .. you will be at Terminal velocity doing that... Just go up and get out of the plane on a hop and pop at 3500 to 4000'.. the dynamics are completely different from a subterminal opening and a full speed terminal opening..try it you like it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quack 0 #12 November 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteI suppose it could start with lower deployment from high altitude jumps and go from there. WHOA sport... hang on .. you will be at Terminal velocity doing that... Just go up and get out of the plane on a hop and pop at 3500 to 4000'.. the dynamics are completely different from a subterminal opening and a full speed terminal opening..try it you like it... Agreed. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #13 November 27, 2006 I'd suggest doing things like: a) Throw oneself out of the plane a few times at a still comfortable altitude and hopefully find that it doesn't take very long to confirm that one is stable to pull, or that even with just throwing oneself out, it doesn't take long to get stable, belly to the wind, before the pull. b) Work one's way down in exit altitude when one has the chance, until comfortable down to say 2500'. c) Run the freefall numbers to remind oneself how little altitude is lost in the first few seconds (eg, CSPA charts show only 138 ft in 3 sec.) Very sensible and realistic. In older days we used to do hop & pops under cloud ceilings at 2 grand with rounds and older squares that opened a lot faster than today's canopies. Nowadays, even with my Pilot, I'd still jump from 2 grand if that was all I could get. But with a Cypres, I personally wouldn't go lower, because I always board the plane with my AAD turned on and don't want to mess around with somebody trying to shut the thing off from over my shoulder. From an exit below 2000 ft, I'm not sure whether I might have a 2 out situation, which is something I hope I don't ever have. That said, an exit from 2000 ft still leaves you as much, or more time than a terminal deployment between 2500 - 3000 ft. And though the opening may take more time, it still takes less distance. Your approach of working your way down to, and getting comfy with 2500 is a sensible approach. Those of us who started on static line have always been more comfortable with the lower altitudes, since they were always our baseline. But people learn better in gradual steps, rather than having "the truth" rubbed in their faces, so I think taking hop & pops down in 500 ft increments at least down to 2500 ft is a good idea. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #14 November 27, 2006 QuoteDo you just follow the USPA recommendations, or do you just follow your instincts? You should follow the recomendations until you develop instincts, and then you should balance the two. I've been out as low as 1200ft from a plane that decended through cloud and had severe iceing issues on the wings and prop. I was on a CRW rig and had 750 "instant" delays on rigs like that. For me, the risk of jumping was lower than the risk of staying in the plane. On the type of dives you describe from the weekend, I'd be happy to go at 2000ft, unless I was wearing a wingsuit, in which case I would want 2500. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #15 November 27, 2006 Quote Now, I'm not ashamed that I stayed with the plane but I'm curious what others are comfortable jumping in and why. Do you just follow the USPA recommendations, or do you just follow your instincts? It depends on the equipment. With a fun canopy I want 2500 feet. I can pull, wait for it to do its thing, have a spinning malfunction, chop, spin like a top, get stable, and be under my reserve by 1500'. I've malfunctioned when I didn't know where I was at, fired my reserve immediately after cutting away, and while it worked fine I didn't like it. With a square that opens right-away, 1800 feet (USPA descision altitude is a fine number). If the DZ might care I'll ask for 2050 feet so I can beat my BSR mandated container opening altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mangledspoon 0 #16 November 27, 2006 Hi, I have landed with the plane before while everyone else on the load exited - this was at 2,000ft. I had about half the jumps I have now at the time and I said, no way. I just didn't feel comfortable as before that my lowest exit was 3,000ft. When I landed everyone told me I had made the right decision, if I wasn't comfortable with it then I shouldn't do it. Now I probably might do it if I had done as a few people have suggested, getting used to lower exit heights but I'd still be pretty wary... Anyway just thought I'd let you know I think you made the right decision! If you aren't comfortable, don't do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #17 November 27, 2006 Unless it IS an emergency all of us A licensed jumpers aren't allowed to being doing anything lower than a 3k hop and pop. Personally I would jump as low as 2k, after that I would be worried about my Pilot 168 sniveling right into the peas. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flydude 0 #18 November 27, 2006 IF the ground speed is high, I guess I would have jumped out of 1500. But then maybe have taken my PC out of its pocket and held it in my hand, if possible considering how the exit door is. A big tail door I would have held it in my hand, but a small Cessna-door, no.A skydiver's famous last words: - Hey! Hold my beer, and watch this...! - If that guy can do it, so can I...! - In 9 out of 10 this will work out just fine. Don't worry about it...! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #19 November 27, 2006 Quote But then maybe have taken my PC out of its pocket and held it in my hand, if possible considering how the exit door is. A big tail door I would have held it in my hand, but a small Cessna-door, no.can you please justify this ? Keep your PC in it's pocket till opening time. PLEASE. once again I am not an instructor.. Please check with your local instructors.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #20 November 27, 2006 QuoteBut then maybe have taken my PC out of its pocket and held it in my hand, if possible considering how the exit door is. You may cause more problem than solve. I guess you might use more time to get stable than find and throw PC. Stable exit is more important than PC in the hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #21 November 27, 2006 Now you can see the downside of BASE jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #22 November 27, 2006 I've done hop & pops from fixed wing and helicopters at 1000 - 1100 feet AGL, seems like you're barely above the treetops. The helicopter was the wildest as we had practially no airspeed and we were as high as this little copter could get us. I've never been much on riding back down in the aircraft... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #23 November 27, 2006 Do we have a low pull contest again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lekstrom10k 0 #24 November 27, 2006 On my 60- for 60. fund raiser jumps for MS all except the last at 2200 were between 1500 and 1800.I only jumped my canopy twice in the 7.5 hours it took. I just turned 60 and was young and foolish .Now I am 64 and nothing has changed.There is a picture of one jump on Google that even went to Italy via UPI. I got donations from all over the country .MS was happy. I did one PC demo jump at 1200 into a rainy baseball game .for $5 big money for the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #25 November 27, 2006 Quotecan you please justify this ? Keep your PC in it's pocket till opening time. PLEASE. once again I am not an instructor.. Please check with your local instructors. I am an instructor. I agree with you 100%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
