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jerry81

Aircraft emergency exit - do you pay your ticket?

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Obviously, are you telling me you dont pay a bit extra when they give you more? If you dont throw in a few bucks for extra altitude you are screwing them out of their money for the fuel costs



It isn't all dollars and cents!!

If something goes wrong with the plane, I don't demand my money back. And if the pilot gives me an extra 500 feet, the DZO doesn't rush over to me and demand an extra 2 bucks after I land.

Instead I lend a hand around the place when I can help, and the DZO's have been extremely helpful to me in return. A place to crash, helping me pack to make a last minute load.

This isn't just any business, does Microsoft let you stop by their office and crash on the couch? :D
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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While I agree that the term "Jewed" is a slur... since when has it been a "racial" slur?? ... as in, since when is the Jewish Religon a "race"? ... or since when have those of the Jewish Religon consider themselves to be of a seperate race?

Okay, I know... I'm going to get thumped for dragging this off-topic, so I'll move it to the Speakers Corner or Bonfire... unless Bill kicks this there first... [:/]

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There isn't any problem with it at all Yentl. I merely meant to say, that you didn't mean offence by it, as you are probably a jew yourself (because jews use he expression too etc.) And apparently you are indeed a jew. Italics were merely to mock (in a non mocking way) the previous poster who had done the same.

Why I'm explaining all this after being called Hitler, is beyond me. Ah yes, its probably because I, contrary to fanatics, don't give a feck about what religion people are. If being a JEW is a sensitive issue, maybe you should drop the loaded vocab.

Tschüss,
Hitler.

Unless you were being ironic. In that case: :|

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... as in, since when is the Jewish Religon a "race"? ... or since when have those of the Jewish Religon consider themselves to be of a seperate race?



Good point. Hitler thought of the jews as a race, and I don't think that jews would want to alaign themselves with that guy.

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Holy crap batman, $240 to take a cesna to 10K?



Go back and reread my post. I stated that the DZ either breaks even of makes up to $5 per fun jumper. So if the DZ was run like a traditional business the lift ticket prices would be about $60.

So, please go back and reread my post fully if you'd like to discuss it.



Wrong. Traditional business looks at supply and demand. $60 tickets would yield less profit, because you wouldn't pay that much.

Going a bit deeper, you take less profit than you could on a fun jumper because they bring in alot of the tandems and AFF, which pay alot more than $5. But it still leads to maximizing profit.

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Wrong. Traditional business looks at supply and demand. $60 tickets would yield less profit, because you wouldn't pay that much.



You wouldn't pay that much as often-so you swap net for margin, making more return off of every dollar of expense/overhead and businesses do operate that way.

Not even really the point, though-if nothing else, pay for the altitude that you got even if it's not what you planned for and if I had payed in advance, I'd be ashamed to go try to get $5-6 bucks back.
I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

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... as in, since when is the Jewish Religon a "race"? ... or since when have those of the Jewish Religon consider themselves to be of a seperate race?



Good point. Hitler thought of the jews as a race, and I don't think that jews would want to alaign themselves with that guy.



Listen, racial slur or not, it is offensive and there is no place for it in a modern civilized world. I would be quite happy if the whole thing was just dropped right now and everyone could go back to discussing the topic at hand.

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>what if you went up and the clouds came in and the pilot decided
>to bring the plane down - should you be charged ?

Did the plane use any fuel?
Did it incur any wear on its engine, tires, or brakes?
Did the pilot spend X minutes flying it?

If the answers to all those questions are "no" then it would make sense to not charge you.



Nah, Bill...apparently you don't get it.
If there is an aircraft emergency, the logic of this thread dictates that:
The pilot doesn't get paid (it's probably his fault, right?)
Any wear incurred on the aircraft shouldn't matter, because the aircraft obviously didn't accomplish its designed purpose, therefore wear and tear cannot be counted.
Fuel? Hell, it had to use fuel coming down as well as going up, and if the emergency was bad enough, a competent pilot would have cut off the fuel, so fuel costs don't matter either.
I like to bill the DZ for busy loads when we've flown halfway around the world to get on a load, but can't because of 8 way teams keeping the planes loaded up.
In case you missed the tongue sticking out of my cheek...
shit happens, gang. Deal with it.
Dropzones are a business, but show me one DZO getting rich in this business (Skyride nonsense discluded) vs DZO's that are in the game because they love it, want to be around it, and even get to jump occasionally.
If shit happens and we happen to be there, do we help out as best we can or do we bitch about $20.00? I've easily spent 20 times that over the summer buying lunch for the entire DZ on a given weekend just because it helps keep us in the air, and it's fun to do. Yes, my choice, no one asked me to. Guess what? On an occasion or three, the appreciative DZO has handed me a jumpticket and I was grateful for it. But never expected it.
whine and the world is full of whiners.
Smile, the world is full of happy people. It's all in your perspective.
shut up and jump. :)

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Well said DSE.

Our DZO bends over backwards and a lot of jumpers take it for granted. Sure there are times I don't get out at the right altitude, but there a re plenty of times on the last load we get 15k+, and no one complains.
Some of the logic hear kills me and makes me thankful for having a great DZ with a great DZO. You know, I never did bill the DZO for gas money when the weather was bad and no one could jump.

Skydiving and Skydivers are a very small community. Without the give and take, it would be even smaller.

DZO's look out for people that look out for them. You scratch mine I'll scratch yours mentality. Bail out at 3k- I don't need a refund, the DZO can keep the money to get the aircraft fixed so I can go to 14k soon.
Brad

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>what if you went up and the clouds came in and the pilot decided
>to bring the plane down - should you be charged ?

Did the plane use any fuel?
Did it incur any wear on its engine, tires, or brakes?
Did the pilot spend X minutes flying it?

If the answers to all those questions are "no" then it would make sense to not charge you.



Nah, Bill...apparently you don't get it.
If there is an aircraft emergency, the logic of this thread dictates that:
The pilot doesn't get paid (it's probably his fault, right?)
Any wear incurred on the aircraft shouldn't matter, because the aircraft obviously didn't accomplish its designed purpose, therefore wear and tear cannot be counted.
Fuel? Hell, it had to use fuel coming down as well as going up, and if the emergency was bad enough, a competent pilot would have cut off the fuel, so fuel costs don't matter either.
I like to bill the DZ for busy loads when we've flown halfway around the world to get on a load, but can't because of 8 way teams keeping the planes loaded up.
In case you missed the tongue sticking out of my cheek...
shit happens, gang. Deal with it.
Dropzones are a business, but show me one DZO getting rich in this business (Skyride nonsense discluded) vs DZO's that are in the game because they love it, want to be around it, and even get to jump occasionally.
If shit happens and we happen to be there, do we help out as best we can or do we bitch about $20.00? I've easily spent 20 times that over the summer buying lunch for the entire DZ on a given weekend just because it helps keep us in the air, and it's fun to do. Yes, my choice, no one asked me to. Guess what? On an occasion or three, the appreciative DZO has handed me a jumpticket and I was grateful for it. But never expected it.
whine and the world is full of whiners.
Smile, the world is full of happy people. It's all in your perspective.
shut up and jump. :)


But never expected it. Exactly the point, I shouldnt be forced to pay the full jump ticket price, it should be up to the jumper to offer or not. Should not be expected.


Q. Why do birds sing?
A. Because they dont have to pack when they land

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When that happened to me the last time, the DZO did not charge us.

However, if she had, I would have gladly paid it because the DZ had done SO much for me that I would feel guilty arguing about it or even questioning it.


Fix the plane and let's go flying!
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Exactly the point, I shouldnt be forced to pay the full jump ticket price, it should be up to the jumper to offer or not. Should not be expected.



No one is forcing you to do anything?

You can take actions, and those actions have consequences. One of those actions would be to have the integrity not to bitch about your 20 dollar lift ticket, while the DZO is busy trying to find a 50 thousand dollar engine for his broken down plane.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Exactly the point, I shouldnt be forced to pay the full jump ticket price, it should be up to the jumper to offer or not. Should not be expected.



No one is forcing you to do anything?

You can take actions, and those actions have consequences. One of those actions would be to have the integrity not to bitch about your 20 dollar lift ticket, while the DZO is busy trying to find a 50 thousand dollar engine for his broken down plane.



Thanks for all your wisdon DougH, your knowledge should be an asset to this sport!


Q. Why do birds sing?
A. Because they dont have to pack when they land

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Thanks for all your wisdon DougH, your knowledge should be an asset to this sport!



:ph34r::ph34r:

Even though I could construe that as a PA, I am going to take it as a complement coming from such a thrifty individual. ;)

Due to the way I was brought up my jump ticket would be the last thing on my mind if my drop zone faced a big hit like a down plane. I might have the right to ask for my money back, but I wouldn't consider it, and like I said I would refuse the money if it was offered back to me. The biggest thing on my mind would be in lending a hand in getting the plane back in the air.

In fact I really don't need the "right to decide if I get my money back or not"!!

I didn't think that was wisdon, infact I thought it was common sense for most people? [:/] I must be a real schmuck!!! :o

Lets just agree to disagree, and hope the jump planes we ride to altitude stay in one piece.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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>Exactly the point, I shouldnt be forced to pay the full jump ticket
>price, it should be up to the jumper to offer or not. Should not be
>expected.

You missed the point. YOU should not expect to get a free ride - but it's nice when it happens. Skydiving is not like shopping at Wal-Mart.

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While we are nitpicking on things -- I've had to pay for a landing, but I've also got refund (jump credit) because a full altitude turned into a hop-n-pop. Plane stopped climbing at hop-n-pop altitude due to clouds.

Regardless of what you do, please all continue to be nice to innocent AFF students ;) ... Give them a free re-lift, if a lift got interrupted for any legitimate reason that prevents an AFF jump. (instructor's now-suddenly-cloudy spot, or if the instructor/pilot cancels the skydive for a reason other than student fault).

Same for tandems, especially ISP ones, if it at absolutely no fault of the student's. (Instructor: "Yes, I insist, it's perfectly fine up there" ... Instructor: "Damn, we can't do the jump. We're landing.")

Fortunately it seems most of DZO's agree on this important matter of students...

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You missed the point. YOU should not expect to get a free ride - but it's nice when it happens. Skydiving is not like shopping at Wal-Mart.



How does he miss the point of his own OPINION?

Anyway, he changed up and at this point didn't say "free" rather said "full" jump ticket. I have no issue with that. If you pay $20 and only get $13 in altitude, then you certainly do have the option to refuse the $7 due to you. But in a reasonable commercial business, that $7 is due back to you and the reason for not delivering the service advertised (clouds, bad engine, etc) is really none of the customer's business. That's our DZ, and they are great.

I'd completely disagree with any position that says you get all $20 back - you still got the airplane ride and the opportunity to exit. (these 2 factors are really the DZ product aren't they?)

The DZ is a business. If you ordered 20 widgets from the local widget factory and they sent 13, it's pretty reasonable to expect a refund on the 7 widgets you didn't receive. So maybe it is like shopping at Wal-Mart.

I'd be more inclined to forgive the refund if it was "club" I belonged to. In fact, it would automatic.

But for a DZ business, all that's important is that manifest makes it clear what the policy is and one can decide whether to jump there or not.

Heck at Couchfreaks, we were on a load when it starting raining. We had gotten to 6000 ft and then the pilot came back down. They gave us our tickets back (full refund). That was pretty nice. I would be accustomed to pay for 6000 ft whether we were allowed exit or not. (this was Larry Hill's Otter)

training 20 (actually 17 in the Westwind) way in Coolidge (again Larry and Lil's operation) we had the left wing stall on climbout due to low throttling. The jump was tanked. But we all made a jump and impromptu big round anyway, from full altitude. Larry chose to buy the next load for all of us. He didn't have to, of course.

My point, the DZ policy is more important the each our individual opinions. We can make that known by where we choose to jump. No point in belittling someone just because their opinion is different.

Let's take your example to the extreme - the plane's engine conks out on takeoff and you circle and land - never exceeding 100 feet - do you forfeit that ticket? Then the DZ policy is you pay for a liftoff and whatever you get for full price.

What about an aborted takeoff? Then the DZ policy is you pay to load the plane and whatever you get after that.

Which policy do you take?

I like paying for altitude delivered. I have the option to donate to the DZ if they can't afford maintenance and repair issues.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Fortunately it seems most of DZO's agree on this important matter of students...



not only a good thing but it's infinitely fair

student pay for the jump training
we pay for altitude

those are two distinctly different products for sale

a good DZ will define what their product is for sale and be consistent with that definition

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>You missed the point. YOU should not expect to get a free ride - but it's nice when it happens. Skydiving is not like shopping at Wal-Mart.



and another thing - :D:D:P

my wife sells jumpsuits, so she's in a skydiving business

next time she has a sewing machine breakdown, I'll advise her to just send the suit as is - but still keep the entire amount - hey, it only has one arm and no zipper, but they should be happy the grippers are complete and the booties are sized right.....

I mean, it's skydiving, not Wal-Mart

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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