2006 Fatalities; up or down?

[Mr17Hz 1]

I noticed that the Safety Section of DZ.COM has not been updated in a while. Has anybody been taken a running total of North American and Worldwide fatalities in 2006?

Currently the safety section shows 17 north american fatalities in 2006, the latest recorded one on Nov 25th. I'm not sure if this is complete up until that date.

2005 showed 30 North American fatalities.
2004 showed 23 North American fatalities.

From what I've gathered through various sources, there are around 300 dropzones in the US and 300 in the rest of the world. I don't know how acurate this is.

2005 showed about equal incidents in North America and the rest of the world. (30 vrs 29)

2006 seemed to bring us considerably more incidents in the rest of the world than it did north america (17 vrs 31 - based on the incomplete information in the safety section of DZ.COM).

I wonder, is this a reflection of the sport loosing popularity in North America and gaining in popularity in other places; or is it a reflection of North America getting smarter in their training / education? All regions of the world have access to the same equipment benefits; so it would seem that the difference in numbers must be caused by something social.

Ideas?

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[michalm21 0]

I know this doesn't address your question (sorry bout that), but a fatality in Poland, July 27th is not included in 06 #s... I just don't know who to PM (or should I just submit a fatality through the form)

BTW, I could totally volunteer to keep that section current.

[pincheck 0]

see here hope it helps answer your questions

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[kallend 1,623]

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see here hope it helps answer your questions

That appears incomplete too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Tonto 1]

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All regions of the world have access to the same equipment benefits

As someone living in Africa, I'd have to call bullshit on that.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Mr17Hz 1]

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All regions of the world have access to the same equipment benefits

As someone living in Africa, I'd have to call bullshit on that.

t

As someone living in Africa, would you like to be a little less useless with your post and elaborate?

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[damion75 0]

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All regions of the world have access to the same equipment benefits

As someone living in Africa, I'd have to call bullshit on that.

t

As someone living in Africa, would you like to be a little less useless with your post and elaborate?

As someone living in the UK I'd like to ask you to be a little more polite when discussing things with someone of Tonto's experience.

As someone living outside of the USA I would like to point out that social and economic circumstances in many parts of the world are different to those in the USA and not everyone (particularly in perhaps Africa and Eastern Europe) can afford the quality of all singing all dancing equipment that we in Western Europe and the USA enjoy.

I am confident that in those places there are plenty of people jumping gear which is older, not as well constructed or not as well maintained. Of course there will also be plenty of people jumping kit that is just as good.

That said, I have read on here of several people (newbies mostly) based in the UK/US trying to buy kit that I would not touch with a barge pole.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[bch7773 0]

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and not everyone (particularly in perhaps Africa and Eastern Europe) can afford the quality of all singing all dancing equipment that we in Western Europe and the USA enjoy.

this statement is correct. I think everyone in the world could get an expensive, but very well made US rig and cypres, etc, but doesn't because of price.

they can save a lot of cash by buying local, or last generation rigs (like vector 2), but they do lose a bit of safety I think

MB 3528, RB 1182

[PhreeZone 15]

Please contact myself via PM's. The site is intentionally about a month out of date at all times. There is a long list of reasons for it but lets just leave it at the initial conclusions drawn by reading the first few fourm posts are often incorrect and it takes time to investigate and flesh out the real details.

Also on the Incidents fourm page there is a "Report a Fatality" link, its been there for about 2 years. Please use it if you know of one that is not on the list. Remember the site relies on user contributed data, in non-english speaking countries an incident may occur and never appear here since no one reads this site that may know of details of it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,396]

>As someone living in Africa, I'd have to call bullshit on that.

What sort of gear is unavailable in Africa?

[Tonto 1]

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>As someone living in Africa, I'd have to call bullshit on that.

What sort of gear is unavailable in Africa?

Well, lets look at a couple of things.

1. Cost.

For the benifit of those who are American, lets talk in US dollars.

At my DZ, a lift to 11000ft AGL costs ZAR185, or about $26.50.
That's not cheap. If we're spending money on jumps, we have less to spend on anything else. Currency is safety.

Now if we take that same exchange rate and we buy things that are from the US, (Like rigs) or the EU (Like AAD's) our 3rd world currency doesn't go very far.

2. Logistics.

It's not uncommon for an AAD sent away to the manufacturer for it's 4 year check to be gone 6 months. It's happened to me. During those 6 months.. you are without an AAD. Same goes when it comes to competition, boogies or courses. Going to any kind of boogie on the scale of the DZ.com boogie is going to cost 3 days travelling and $1200 more than any American would need to spend. My BMI course - a near requirement to get the wingsuit disipline off the ground here, cost me $1500 in plane tickets and course fees. Relatively routine items like risers, PC etc are often the age of the harness they came with, even for senior jumpers.

3. Availability.

When your Flex-z's wear out, or you need a new visor for your Oxygen, or you drop a reserve handle or lose a freebag etc, you'd better have planned a month in advance, paid Square One, added 50% import duty and 14% VAT on top of that. Sure, you can rush down to the ONE gear store in the country - but without competition, you'll either buy it yourself, or pay what's asked, which can be daunting sometimes. There was a South American fatality caused by a notch in a "$5 ripcord." We see issues like that often that many US citizens simply will never comprehend.

4. Choice.

Mostly, people will buy what's available. Many, many local skydivers don't see the US as their local gear store. As our currency slipped against the USD, the Euro and the GBP, the local manufacturers like Chute Shop (Now Parachute Systems) PISA and later Aerodyne pegged their prices to the international market even though that equipment was made in South Africa with South African labour and material.

Every weekend I see Naro's, some Invaders, Vulcans (Vector 2 knock-offs) with shoddy pin and riser protection and knackered spandex and velcro pouring through the door. I see SSE Altimaster 2's that have done the rounds longer than I have been jumping and have never had a service - doing the rounds from jumper to jumper as they start and stop every 3 - 5 years, never knowing the history of the gear.

I've spent enough time on enough US DZ's to know that this is seldom the case where you live. It wasn't at Eloy 2004, or Perris 2005, or Crosskeys 2006. It's the norm here.

Apart from maybe 50 South Africans with enough International exposure to know what they want - regardless of cost, the other 700 odd jumpers in the country are happy with locally made gear with riser covers that don't cover - or some mid 90's Jav that a visiting jumper left here.

I see people from the US complaining of the weakness of their currency against the Euro.. and I wonder. How many of you would boogie if Europe was the closest and cheapest boogie spot? If you think the dollar is weak against the Euro, ours is 10 to one.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Mr17Hz 1]

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All regions of the world have access to the same equipment benefits

As someone living in Africa, I'd have to call bullshit on that.

t

As someone living in Africa, would you like to be a little less useless with your post and elaborate?

I read your PM but I don't feel that editing my original reply is called for. I attempted to start a positive discussion about incident statistics as a whole, and started the conversation with a few ideas to work with.

One of those was the suggestion (it was a suggestion based on the context that I wrote it, in a paragraph that was clearly brainstorming ideas and not siting sources of fact) that all areas of the jumping world have access to the same equipment.

As far as I know, there are no trade agreements that prohibit the sale of parachuting equipment to foreign countries. I could be incorrect on this, but I do not know of any.

Social is defined as : relating to human society and its members; "social institutions"; "societal evolution"; "societal forces"; "social legislation"

Political is defined as: of or relating to your views about social relationships involving authority or power; "political opinions"

Government is defined as : the organization that is the governing authority of a political unit; "the government reduced taxes"; "the matter was referred to higher authorities"

Govern is defined as : regulate: bring into conformity with rules or principles or usage; impose regulations; "We cannot regulate the way people dress"; "This town likes to regulate"

Economy is defined as : the system of production and distribution and consumption

Based on these definitions, I would classify the lack of a strong economy to be a social reason for equipment not being available, as there are no restrictions that prohibit individual jumpers from making half as many jumps, and purchasing better equipment. We're dealing with an entertainment industry that is expensive.

Jump tickets are expensive anywhere in the world. I see low time jumpers in the US making only 30-40 jumps a year and jumping with quality 2nd hand 5 year old equipment that cost them around the cost of 150 jumps. I also see jumpers making 200 jumps a year jumping with less than par equipment (I consider jumping without an AAD, with the exception of jumps when they become less reliable, aka aggressive canopy flight, to be less than par). These are people that are clearly making the decision based on cost and not safety.

If you feel that a difference in the equipment being used is a contributing in fact a in the difference in incident numbers from region to region, then why don't you let us all know what kind of equipment is being jumped; and lets take a look at the number of fatalities in Africa and other parts of the world that were, or could have been, cause by not having better equipment available.

I would guess, but I don't know - that we would see that a majority of the incidents that took place did not have to do with the quality of equipment, but instead choices that people made during the last 10 minutes of their life. Starting this thread was, in part, an effort to help the community pool thoughts together to help come to an educated group decision; or at the very least - get people thinking.

You may have a valid point, and one that we can all learn from, but responding with a one liner calling my brainstorming bullshit is not productive; and is completely hypocritical in that you provide even less basis for your comment than I did for mine.

Furthermore, asking me in a private message to remove the statement is insulting, considering that it was in response to your small effort and offensive reply to a post that I made with good intentions to start an educational discussion.

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[Mr17Hz 1]

Quote

Quote

>As someone living in Africa, I'd have to call bullshit on that.

What sort of gear is unavailable in Africa?

Well, lets look at a couple of things.

1. Cost.

For the benifit of those who are American, lets talk in US dollars.

At my DZ, a lift to 11000ft AGL costs ZAR185, or about $26.50.
That's not cheap. If we're spending money on jumps, we have less to spend on anything else. Currency is safety.

Now if we take that same exchange rate and we buy things that are from the US, (Like rigs) or the EU (Like AAD's) our 3rd world currency doesn't go very far.

2. Logistics.

It's not uncommon for an AAD sent away to the manufacturer for it's 4 year check to be gone 6 months. It's happened to me. During those 6 months.. you are without an AAD. Same goes when it comes to competition, boogies or courses. Going to any kind of boogie on the scale of the DZ.com boogie is going to cost 3 days travelling and $1200 more than any American would need to spend. My BMI course - a near requirement to get the wingsuit disipline off the ground here, cost me $1500 in plane tickets and course fees. Relatively routine items like risers, PC etc are often the age of the harness they came with, even for senior jumpers.

3. Availability.

When your Flex-z's wear out, or you need a new visor for your Oxygen, or you drop a reserve handle or lose a freebag etc, you'd better have planned a month in advance, paid Square One, added 50% import duty and 14% VAT on top of that. Sure, you can rush down to the ONE gear store in the country - but without competition, you'll either buy it yourself, or pay what's asked, which can be daunting sometimes. There was a South American fatality caused by a notch in a "$5 ripcord." We see issues like that often that many US citizens simply will never comprehend.

4. Choice.

Mostly, people will buy what's available. Many, many local skydivers don't see the US as their local gear store. As our currency slipped against the USD, the Euro and the GBP, the local manufacturers like Chute Shop (Now Parachute Systems) PISA and later Aerodyne pegged their prices to the international market even though that equipment was made in South Africa with South African labour and material.

Every weekend I see Naro's, some Invaders, Vulcans (Vector 2 knock-offs) with shoddy pin and riser protection and knackered spandex and velcro pouring through the door. I see SSE Altimaster 2's that have done the rounds longer than I have been jumping and have never had a service - doing the rounds from jumper to jumper as they start and stop every 3 - 5 years, never knowing the history of the gear.

I've spent enough time on enough US DZ's to know that this is seldom the case where you live. It wasn't at Eloy 2004, or Perris 2005, or Crosskeys 2006. It's the norm here.

Apart from maybe 50 South Africans with enough International exposure to know what they want - regardless of cost, the other 700 odd jumpers in the country are happy with locally made gear with riser covers that don't cover - or some mid 90's Jav that a visiting jumper left here.

I see people from the US complaining of the weakness of their currency against the Euro.. and I wonder. How many of you would boogie if Europe was the closest and cheapest boogie spot? If you think the dollar is weak against the Euro, ours is 10 to one.

t

These are exactly the facts and opinions that I was looking for; thank you for taking the time to write them.

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[strop45 0]

Agreed. Like South Africa, the number of skydivers in NZ is small. This means that there isn't alot of choice in secondhand equipment or you have to buy sight unseen (not even by a rigger you or a friend knows/trusts). It also means that it isn't easy to onsell the euipment when you want to upgrade. As a result new skydivers, more often than their counterparts in the USA, purchase new equipment or equipment than is less than ideal and know that they will have to jump it for a long time. This tends to result in higher wing loadings at lower jump numbers than those recommended here on DZ.com or just poor fitting/functioning equipment.

On the plus side, a lower of jumpers means that literally everybody knows everybody and the reputation of 'unsafe' jumpers spreads quickly.

Out of interest, NZ has a national accident insurance scheme (called ACC). Recent analysis of the costs of accidents:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3900085a6009.html

"High-injury risk" adventure sports, topped in frequency by mountainbiking, horse-riding, tramping and surfing, cost the country over $12m in 2004-05, according to research published in today's New Zealand Medical Journal.

The safest of 28 activities considered were bungy jumping, skydiving and skiing, which lead researcher Tim Bentley attributed to tight regulation within those activities."

Is there any comparsion of the accident rate in USA versus Western Europe (where economic/population numbers are comparable)?

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[Tonto 1]

Do you have Foreign Exchange regulations in the US?

For example, would someone as rich as Bill Gates only be allowed to spend USD 20 000 outside of the US per year?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[dreamsville 0]

I know of no limit on foreign spending by US citizens in other countries. I'm also not sure how many other countries fear for their currencies enough to do this.

Harry

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Jumpah 0]

Has there been any consideration or attempt to band together skydivers in your country into some sort of buying group? A group of 200 or even 50 people may get the attention of a rig manufacturer or other equipment vendors, etc. Maybe that'll give them an incentive to lower their core prices, making the overall price when you add in the VAT and all the other brib----uh, "taxes and fees"....something more on par with adjusted values.

[Tonto 1]

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Has there been any consideration or attempt to band together skydivers in your country into some sort of buying group?

Yes. Our DZ has a "Staff deal" with a US Manufacturer that offers a 40% off base price and 15% off options. Most staff at our DZ are consequently equipped with safe, modern gear.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[schuey87 0]

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From what I've gathered through various sources, there are around 300 dropzones in the US and 300 in the rest of the world. I don't know how acurate this is.

I don't jump in America, but 300, wow if thats right, that is a lot!

[Tonto 1]

http://www.dropzone.com/dropzone/ shows a total of 884 DZ's listed. There are over 300 in the US, and nearly 400 in Europe, the remainder scattered across the globe.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Peter_ru 0]

Hi, all!

I've read the half-baked conclusions about safety of skydiving and it's conjunction with the equipment used in US and the rest of the world. And have to add couple of lines here.

Just take a look at the statistics given in the "Safety" section. I think that in some way it does reflect the true situation:

Collisions (25) 14%
Landings (61) 33%
No Pulls (12) 7%
Malfunctions (35) 19%
Reserve Problems (12) 7%
Other (26) 14%

If we take Malfunctions and Reserve Problems it overall makes the equipment a reason of 26% of fatalities. Hence it is not the major factor.

More than a half of fatalities were caused by Collisions, Poor landing and No pulls (I'm not sure where to place the "Other" reasons). Does it have to do anything with the type of equipment you're jumping with? Sometimes, but mostly - not.

In fact it may happen so that supreme equipment causes more incidents than the one of the previous generation due to it's advanced characteristics (canopy flight speed for instance). This equipment can not be easily mastered by everyone, but as you say, it is widely available in US...

From my point of view most of troubles come from careless actions of skydivers and improper control of the administration of dropzones that should prevent them. Low turns and low pulls, early downsizing, collisions in the air are all the matter of poor self-discipline, training and ground control.

Now let's come back to equipment. My home DZ is located near Moscow. And I do have access to all the equipment from US or Europe, besides, equipment produced in Russia is robust and reliable enough to match the imported. And skydiving is EXPENSIVE sport. A lift to 13500ft (4000m) costs here about $15 both for planes and helicopters. Average 300 jumps per season make it $4.5k per year. If you can afford it, than your life should be dear enough to you for not to be trying to save much on your equipment. And as regards ADDs, it is simply not allowed to jump without one here.

By the way, what is the cost of the following items in US: Cypres II, Icarus Safire 2, average reserve (I have "Techno" but it must be rather rare in US), Javelin Odyssey, all of them new?