AFF level 2 gone wrong...but worked out beautifully!

[floridadiver81 0]

So i go out to the dz to do level 2. when i leave home it is pouring rain....jsut plain shity weather. I told meself at least go out and see if it clears up...and it did...about 2 hours later...from complete cloud cover to all blue skies. but anyway...so im about to exit the plane...exit it fine(jumped from a skyvan..rear exit). Arch was really good. Did my COA...reserve side...main side...2 practice touches...then not but a few seconds after that...i look left...no instructor...i look right...no instructor...for a very brief second i paniced and freakd out. I know i was supposed to pull when no instructors around around me...but at that moment in time it wasnt a thought. After that brief second i realsied that i was falling very stable..other than falling fast. I still have to work on my arms and leg position. but i suprised the hell out of myself that i was falling stable on only my AFF 2. I even was able to do my left and right turns successfully! I didnt track because i ran out of altitude..and i was comofrtable doing it..hell..i was by myself! Buring the brief my instructors told me that even though i didnt pull when i noticed both of them were gone, that they had to pass me..being that i was flying stably on my own...and obviously pulled my own pilot unassisted..lol. Overall it was a VERY good dive other than me not pulling when i was supposed to...BUT i remained stable..soo..hell yeah...freefalling on my own one second aff jump! Go Me!!

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[BIGUN 1,049]

Sounds like you did well.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[freeflysteve 0]

Lost them both on second jump!!!!

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[Feeblemind 1]

First off, Glad you had fun!!

Now for the more serious side, I am assuming this was a release dive with two instructors and it sounds like you were very stable so you got released. My question is were the instructors "gone?" or had they just released you? It appears by your wording they were in fact, GONE. Instead of flamming you, I will agree with you, if your instructors were gone you should have pulled!! A number of things could have happened, and "if" your instructors were not able to reach you and you bet your life you could do it on your own.

I am a coach and a vidiot, not an instructor so I will keep my yap shut in regards to where your instructors were. Hopefully my instructor will chime in and give his opinion.

I wonder, If my instructor told me "If for some reason we get significantly seperated and you cannot see me, PULL" I wonder if I would have gotten chewed out or excused as his student.


Stay Safe,

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[DSE 3]

FWIW, I was video slot on an AFF jump (my daughter's) and she insisted once she landed that her instructors were "gone."
Truth be told, and video showed, the instructor was simply out of her view, right behind her BOC, ready to dump if needed.
But it was a huge confidence boost for the student to believe that she was alone.
could this be the case here? The instructor(s) may have been beyond periphery?

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

I'm sort of confused and would love to hear more. So this was not a release dive right? Does that normally occurr on AFF 3? So when you exited, did the instructors have a solid grip on you? Did the separation occur during the exit, or some time into freefall? Had you already accomplished some of the dive flow and then realized they weren't holding you?

And hypothetically, if you had pulled, what would happen? I assume you wouldn't be passed on the level, because you wouldn't have done any of the predetermined goals. Would the student then have to pay to retake the level, or would it be an instrcuctor screw up? I guess it might be in part determined on why and how the separation occurred.

Congratulations on the pass though.

[floridadiver81 0]

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First off, Glad you had fun!!

Now for the more serious side, I am assuming this was a release dive with two instructors and it sounds like you were very stable so you got released. My question is were the instructors "gone?" or had they just released you? It appears by your wording they were in fact, GONE. Instead of flamming you, I will agree with you, if your instructors were gone you should have pulled!! A number of things could have happened, and "if" your instructors were not able to reach you and you bet your life you could do it on your own.

I am a coach and a vidiot, not an instructor so I will keep my yap shut in regards to where your instructors were. Hopefully my instructor will chime in and give his opinion.

I wonder, If my instructor told me "If for some reason we get significantly seperated and you cannot see me, PULL" I wonder if I would have gotten chewed out or excused as his student.


Stay Safe,

It was NOT a release dive. AFF level 2 inst an intentional release dive...level 3 is. Ill explain it again. We exited the skyvan. They were still holding me. I did my coa..yelled my alt to the reserve side...and then to the main side...they were still there. I did my two practice touchs....looked around...they were within my visable view. I was falling ALOT faster than they were...whcih is why they couldnt catch up to me without coming down over top of me. And that is exactly what the instructor told me. They are taught when doing the instructor course to come in from the side of the student...never the top. I saw my main instructor for a very brief second at 11 o'clock then i didnt see him. I turn my left and right turns on my own and still was not able to see them within my view. They even told me they had no intentions of releasing me on that dive. If i remember correctly...main instructor lost grip of me...and when he was coming in to dock with me again he went over me..and my reserve instructor put one of his hands up to stop him from coming into my dead air behind me...when we did that his other hand lost grip...at that point i was alone because i was falling alot faster than they were. They were falling at 110ish....my reserve said i was falling at about 150ish. I was falling faster becasue i had my arms in further than they should have which made my decent rate alot faster than them. ok..i described it in as much detail as i remember.

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[Feeblemind 1]

Quote

Quote

First off, Glad you had fun!!

Now for the more serious side, I am assuming this was a release dive with two instructors and it sounds like you were very stable so you got released. My question is were the instructors "gone?" or had they just released you? It appears by your wording they were in fact, GONE. Instead of flamming you, I will agree with you, if your instructors were gone you should have pulled!! A number of things could have happened, and "if" your instructors were not able to reach you and you bet your life you could do it on your own.

I am a coach and a vidiot, not an instructor so I will keep my yap shut in regards to where your instructors were. Hopefully my instructor will chime in and give his opinion.

I wonder, If my instructor told me "If for some reason we get significantly seperated and you cannot see me, PULL" I wonder if I would have gotten chewed out or excused as his student.


Stay Safe,

It was NOT a release dive. AFF level 2 inst an intentional release dive...level 3 is. Ill explain it again. We exited the skyvan. They were still holding me. I did my coa..yelled my alt to the reserve side...and then to the main side...they were still there. I did my two practice touchs....looked around...they were within my visable view. I was falling ALOT faster than they were...whcih is why they couldnt catch up to me without coming down over top of me. And that is exactly what the instructor told me. They are taught when doing the instructor course to come in from the side of the student...never the top. I saw my main instructor for a very brief second at 11 o'clock then i didnt see him. I turn my left and right turns on my own and still was not able to see them within my view. They even told me they had no intentions of releasing me on that dive. If i remember correctly...main instructor lost grip of me...and when he was coming in to dock with me again he went over me..and my reserve instructor put one of his hands up to stop him from coming into my dead air behind me...when we did that his other hand lost grip...at that point i was alone because i was falling alot faster than they were. They were falling at 110ish....my reserve said i was falling at about 150ish. I was falling faster becasue i had my arms in further than they should have which made my decent rate alot faster than them. ok..i described it in as much detail as i remember.

Thanks for the clarifications, Good job on stopping the skydive and safely landing your parachute. As far as your AFF-I's not being with you, I will leave that for the more qualified to address.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[floridadiver81 0]

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I'm sort of confused and would love to hear more. So this was not a release dive right? Does that normally occurr on AFF 3? So when you exited, did the instructors have a solid grip on you? Did the separation occur during the exit, or some time into freefall? Had you already accomplished some of the dive flow and then realized they weren't holding you?

And hypothetically, if you had pulled, what would happen? I assume you wouldn't be passed on the level, because you wouldn't have done any of the predetermined goals. Would the student then have to pay to retake the level, or would it be an instrcuctor screw up? I guess it might be in part determined on why and how the separation occurred.

Congratulations on the pass though.

The first release dive is supposed to be level 3. My instructors said that if i would have became unstable after they lost their grips then i wouldnt have passed the jump. His exacts words were "i should fail you because you broke a MAJOR safety rule by not pulling when you noticed that both of us were not around you...but i have to pass you becasue of the stability and constant altitude awareness you demonstrated without us being there". I did the whole dive flow with the exception of the trackingwhich they told me wasnt that important...it wasnt until after my 2 practice touches did i notice that both of them were not anywhere within reach of me. And thanks...that dive really boosted my confidence level! I know know that i can fly stably so my level 3 should be an easy pass!

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[floridadiver81 0]

Quote

FWIW, I was video slot on an AFF jump (my daughter's) and she insisted once she landed that her instructors were "gone."
Truth be told, and video showed, the instructor was simply out of her view, right behind her BOC, ready to dump if needed.
But it was a huge confidence boost for the student to believe that she was alone.
could this be the case here? The instructor(s) may have been beyond periphery?

I knew they werent around me becasue both of them told me. I didnt see the video as i didnt pay for the video part....but both of them told me. I looked around to try and find them....and with the exception of the glimpse i saw of the main instructor...i couldnt see them anywhere.

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[icevideot 0]

Congrats and I am glad it worked out for you.

I do need to add a word of caution. It can be extremely dangerous to deviate from planned procedures especially this early in the sport. It sounds like you did a great job but this could have just as easily turned into a praise the AAD (whether cypress or other) thread.

Without more information I can't fairly speculate on the instructors point of view. Skydiving is a very high speed sport and there are often multiple first person accounts that can vary widely.

Keep up the great work and let us know how it goes.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[floridadiver81 0]

oh i know exactly what you are saying. Thats why i had that brief second of panic and "what the hell do i do!" Then i realise that i was falling stable then it jsut turned into pure fun from there. I waved off and pulled at exacttly 5500 feet. so i did what i was suppose to do. I thank my training that i recieved. Without it it could have very well been a very bad situation! It did however build my confidence for level three...when they are supposed to release me if i demonstrate proper body position...which im sure i will do. did it once already...no reason why i cant do it again. Only sucky part is im not supposed to do turns in that dive..and i want to...they are fun!

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[bodypilot1 0]

Sounds like you had some great instructors.....
On a L2, your instructed to pull should your instructors not be in control of you, and obviously they weren't. This time things worked out in your favor.
IMO, for the rest of your training, I'd find someone more qualified to instruct you though....



Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[AFFI 0]

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so i did what i was suppose to do.

I am not going to comment on anything other than this point - From what I have read so far - You did not do what you were supposed to do if you were being trained in accordance with USPA guidelines, which it sounds like you were. Your training did direct you to immediately deploy if you were alone in freefall, which you DID NOT do.

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I know i was supposed to pull when no instructors around around me...

Skydiving is a lot more than what you are alluding to - a HUGE aspect of it is about being able to count on one another (those in the group) to do their (your) best to dive the plan that was set forth in the ground training.

You took it upon yourself to do what you want, to do things your own way and that just tells me that at this point you do not understand that you can not be counted on by those you are diving with to stick to the plan.

I would not pat you on the back for falling stable and all that jazz, because you did not dive the plan. What if the situation was a little different and something was added into the equitation that was unplanned, necessitating an early deployment that you could have not been aware of? Open parachute below you and BAM! You go through it killing yourself and the other person, or an airplane flying into your airspace or a long spot that needed a little more altitude under canopy to make it back to your intended landing area.

What you did was selfish, irresponsible and a safety hazard to yourself and everyone else in the sky around you.

Glad everything worked out for the better this time...

I am not commenting on your account of what your instructors did or did not do because you have illustrated a total lack of credibility.

Grow up and be more responsible...
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[floridadiver81 0]

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You took it upon yourself to do what you want, to do things your own way and that just tells me that at this point you do not understand that you can not be counted on by those you are diving with to stick to the plan.


Grow up and be more responsible...

First of all..im not taking anything you say to heart. You fail to realise that this was my third jump..2nd aff jump. They way you talk is if i had alot more experiance. im still a STUDENT. i know what i did was wrong by not pulling when i noticed they werent around me..im not denying that fact. But you should understand my point...which you fail to do. I was alone in freefall for the first time...completely unexpected. i had alot of stuff running through my head. yeah..i know what i should have done but the shock of being in freefall by myself made my mind race. I was completely aware of my altitude and completely aware of my surroundings. i pulled at the correct stuent altitude and made it back to the airport and student landing zone. I did good for going throug what i went through. Weather you like it or not i completed the jump and passed to level three. You were not there, you did not see the video, you have no right to say anything about me or my instructors. Grow up...HAHA...three jumps there buddy.....rethink that one again. Things happen...i reacted..im alive...enough said.

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[d123 1]

There is a story at my dz about something like that back in the day when ADD were not used.

It was level 2 or 3 with 2 instructors. The Instructors forget to put their weights on and got separated from the student who was very stable.They track away from the student, clearing the air, expecting for the deployment. One of them is still keeping an eye on the student because he wanted to open at almost the same altitude as the student to guide him out of the strong high winds. 5 sec. pass and nothing happens. One instructor starts to believe that the student is frozen. Sit flies his way down to the student for a dock and deploy. Student at 5-6000 waive off and dumps his PC. Instructor doesn't have enough time to track away and they end up in collision. Student cuts away from a spiralling main while badly injured and deploys reserve but the instructors deploys nothing and goes in.

I did almost the same thing as you on level 1. I forget to do the check in. Everything went perfect after except the exit. They give me the chance to fail or pass myself. I chose to repeat the jump but they said that I've learnt my lesson and ask for beers instead. It was a sweet deal if you ask me.

Cheers,
d123.

Edit to Add: and later that night we made a big fire,BBQ drink beer and smoke weed from the instructors stash ... hehehe I'm joking that's not true .... the weed belong to the father of the instructor!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[sundevil777 93]

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Student at 5-6000 waive off and dumps his PC. Instructor doesn't have enough time to track away and they end up in collision.

Not enough time! I'd say that a more appropriate description would be - Instructor stupidly put himself above the student.

To the original poster: I see no need to get beat up over your failure to pull earlier when the instructors got separated. You could have done a lot worse, and in fact most instructors would expect you to do a lot worse. You've learned that lesson, no need to let anyone make too big a deal about it now.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mnealtx 0]

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You took it upon yourself to do what you want, to do things your own way and that just tells me that at this point you do not understand that you can not be counted on by those you are diving with to stick to the plan.


Grow up and be more responsible...

First of all..im not taking anything you say to heart. You fail to realise that this was my third jump..2nd aff jump. They way you talk is if i had alot more experiance. im still a STUDENT. i know what i did was wrong by not pulling when i noticed they werent around me..im not denying that fact. But you should understand my point...which you fail to do. I was alone in freefall for the first time...completely unexpected. i had alot of stuff running through my head. yeah..i know what i should have done but the shock of being in freefall by myself made my mind race. I was completely aware of my altitude and completely aware of my surroundings. i pulled at the correct stuent altitude and made it back to the airport and student landing zone. I did good for going throug what i went through. Weather you like it or not i completed the jump and passed to level three. You were not there, you did not see the video, you have no right to say anything about me or my instructors. Grow up...HAHA...three jumps there buddy.....rethink that one again. Things happen...i reacted..im alive...enough said.

"plan the dive, dive the plan" - you didn't dive the plan, and that is the point he is making.

Yes, you're alive, good job!! BUT, you screwed up and SHOULD have pulled when you lost your instructors - you made yourself a danger to other jumpers by NOT diving the plan. Your instructors SHOULD have failed you on that dive.

From the SIM:

Quote

1. Special considerations for AFF exits:
a. In case of instability, (in order)—
(1) arch until the horizon comes flat into view
(2) read the altimeter
(3) establish communication with the
instructors (examples of signals in SIM
Appendix A)
b. Continue as usual in the event of the loss of one
instructor.
c. If both instructors become unavailable at any
time during the freefall, open the parachute
immediately.

Please note the bolded, above - it DOESN'T say "open the parachute only if you're unstable after losing your instructors"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[VincentVL. 0]

You should have tracked away from your instructors doing barrel roles and scatting Yakety Sax (Benny Hill Theme song:http://members.lycos.nl/catchytune/yakety.wav )

[laughn_gas 0]

Congratulations on your AFF 2! I'm also a student currently on my level 6 and would like to give some of my thoughts on this particular discussion.

On my AFP 3 (release dive) I lost sight of my instructor for 5 sec., after my PTOs. I remember counting out loud to my self for what felt like 30 sec. I also recall thinking, is this guy playing some sort of joke on me? I was instructed to pull after 5 sec., so I did. My instructor was well pleased with my actions. So pleased, that he had passed me on to level 4, because I did exactly what I was supposed to do, during that situation. I enjoyed my long canopy ride down, as it gave me alot of time to get familiar with the controls, flaring etc. My point here is that I think you should have failed for not going along with your dive plan.


Someday I hope to be a great skydiver. But for now I am a student. I'll be a student for a long while after I get my A license. I will do what I'm instructed to do. I will listen, and soak up as much information as I can. I will always be safe. There is plenty of time to have fun skydiving, and doing what I feel like doing during my dive, after I complete my training. My point here is, just because someone made a few jumps out of an airplane does not make them a skydiver. To me a true SKydiver is mentally, physically and spiritually mature in the sport. Just my opinion.


There is alot of information, and opinions on this forum that I would not swear by, until I first consulted with my instructors. But there happens to be tons of experienced Skydivers here, from all over the world, whose opinions I really respect. No matter how they are delivered to me. They poke fun of me when I ask very basic questions... Thats OK.... I kind of get a chuckle out of it myself, when the embarrassment wears off. My point here is that you can get all this information for free, by many experienced Skydivers, from your living room, anytime of any day.


Last but not least. There is some great reading material out there. Of course there is the SIM, a definite must. The "SKydivers Handbook" is a great investment. And then there is " Mental Training For Skydiving and Life " by John J. Derosalia. All GREAT SHIT!!!

I wish you the best. Be SAFE.

See ya in a minute. Peace out!

[laughn_gas 0]

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You should have tracked away from your instructors doing barrel roles and scatting Yakety Sax (Benny Hill Theme song:http://members.lycos.nl/catchytune/yakety.wav )


Thats some funny shit!!!!!!! ILMAO

See ya in a minute. Peace out!

• Quote

[AFFI 0]

Quote

What you did was selfish, irresponsible and a safety hazard to yourself and everyone else in the sky around you.

I am not commenting on your account of what your instructors did or did not do because you have illustrated a total lack of credibility.

Grow up and be more responsible...

** *** ** ** **** ** *** ** **** **

I take these statements back – I did not mean it to come out this way. I apologize for attacking your character.

What irked me was that everything seemed la-ti-da so to speak without regard to knowing what you were supposed to do and not following through. The point I was really trying to drive home is that there may be extenuating circumstances that warrant action that seemed to be considered with a lackadaisical attitude. Plus there is specific training to release dive to prepare the student in the event of a loss of control and a unintentional transition to the back. Which is vital prior to a release dive.

AFF Instructors have to really prove themselves to get their rating in a 9 day course many say is as mentally tough as boot camp. Even at its current state, it is not easy. Point is, it is important to adhere to the recommendations made to students by their instructors for safety reasons not apparent to students. All the safety protocols are in place for a reason.

That being said:
Having a level 2 student that that can fall stable, monitor altitude and deploy on time is very rare. By this account you must be a very talented individual, what we would call a “NATURAL”.

So congratulations of all that you not only did correctly, but preformed at a superior level.

Again, my apologies….

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[floridadiver81 0]

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That being said:
Having a level 2 student that that can fall stable, monitor altitude and deploy on time is very rare. By this account you must be a very talented individual, what we would call a “NATURAL”.

So congratulations of all that you not only did correctly, but preformed at a superior level.

Again, my apologies….

That...coming form you sir...is an extreme compliment. I have recieved numerous pm's from various people that you are one of the "world's best" aff instructors...THANK YOU!

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye