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thedarkside

Tandems, Hurting or helping membership?

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Tandems are killing our sport.
People come out, make one jump, get a video and you never see them again. They can check that off on the "things to do list"



Well, in the past when tandems didn't exist, at least in Russia the same people come out, pass a forty hours training, make one, two or three static line jumps with a round canopy, and then you never see them again.

I agree that the number (in percentage) of people who'd continue after they do those three jumps was larger than for tandems. But not if you look on absolute numbers. The forty hours training was itself the turn-off for a lot of people who are doing tandems now.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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The situation at smaller DZs, especially those in small markets like Canada, would contradict some of what you posted.
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We would be no influx of newbies who get hooked by doing a tandem just to mark off the "things to do list".


The folks that would get hooked also would do so on static line. The folks that just checked it off their list are what is increased by tandem and their retention is infinitesimal.

In Manitoba, the years we had the highest participation and retention, we offered only IAD with gradual progression and offered absolutely no tandems. In the summer, we would have classes of 40-60 that could be trained and dispatched by 2 instructors. I once did 85 IADs in one day.

It is simply not possible to move that many tandems with that small an instructor base. Air power was maximized, instructors were maximized and the operation was incredibly efficient.

Tandems cost far more per student to do reducing the amount of profit per jumper. ($25-$35 less at our DZ with our plane other dzs may disagree)

Our wing mounted camera that could get great pics and video on IADs doesn't have the same appeal. This means that extra sales are not being realized. Sending a 182 with a camera guy and a tandem can waste a slot, slows down the operation (could be doing 2 tandems on that load) and the camera guy needs to be paid. The video ends up costing more to the customer and the DZ makes less. There are now also less videos being sold/shown to friends. The vidoe guy also must be highly experienced for safety and quality of work.

Staffing requirements have greatly increased. An instructor now needs 500 jumps minimum and a D license. That is why in the entire province of Manitoba, there are only 4 TMs to service 2 DZs. That means the poor TIs have to get burned out every year trying to fill the demand. This means a poorer quality of service to the student.

The increased requirements also mean that jumpers have to do far more jumps before they can be instructors. Here is where we are losing jumpers!
The life span of a jumper in Canada is usually 3 years. Because we have a 6 month season and mainly weekend jumping in Manitoba, a jumper at best will generally do 25-50 the first year, 100 the second and a 100 the third. That means a really gung-ho jumper in Canada has only 225-250 jumps before he starts to drift from the sport (based on 15 years of observation). There was a time when that would be the perfect number to make someone a JM or FJC instructor, given them new goals and retaining them a few more years but now, tandem JM is still a few years away. They end up leaving between the B and C license.

Now other stuff you said I would absolutely agree with, especially in the US at larger DZs where the economies of scale can change the costs associated. In that case, the first jump process is simplified by not needing a radio controller, there are far fewer injuries with tandems than solos, they justify larger aircraft (IADs are a cluster fuck out of an otter!)

But believe me when I tell you that in my neck of the woods, Tandems make us less efficient, reduce the pool of up jumpers (by making instructing more prohibitive), burn out the few that are TMs (I'm one of the four and I also do the rigging, answer the phones and run the DZ), and greatly reduce profits that can threaten the life of the DZ.

And I have a feeling that small northern DZs even in the US may be feeling it too.

Tandems truly are a double edged sword and the DZ owner must create new ways of operating to address the problems that Tandems bring. It is certainly time for DZOs to address the problems creatively because Tandems are here to stay.

And if anyone knows how to solve all these problems, please let me know!:P
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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I feel that tandems are an integral component of the sport today, because as said by many, it's exposure. These days, we see a lot of "thrillseeker" vacations and packages out there, just look at the back pages of any Outside magazine. In the past, kayaking, rock climbing, and other sports considered to be extreme have been slow in gaining new members. It used to seem to be relegated to the young and very physically fit.
Now, we're seeing the folks that once saw these sports as being for the "younger crowd" realizing that they too, can participate in these activities. Marketing companies from NYC to Hawaii are selling "Adventure packages" or "The Ultimate Man-cation." This all leads to more exposure to skydiving and other extremes. The problem is the "other extremes." There are now more accessible means of participating in extreme sports than ever before, so the adrenaline pie gets smaller. The USPA, in my opinion, needs to market more heavily to the 18-25 crowd, and to the 30-55 demographic if they want to keep their share of the adrenaline market pie.

When is the last time we saw a skydiving ad in RollingStone, Outside, Mens Fitness, Mens Health, National Geographic Adventure, etc?
As much as we hate Skyride, they're doing what the USPA should be doing in terms of advertising. Should the USPA be providing co-op dollars for the dropzones to advertise in regional publications? Getting more news coverage to bring more jumpers to the DZ is important, yeah?
Getting good/smart coverage in the various television and film projects is good. Having those avenues show "normal" people in the sport is even better.
Getting Vin Diesel, Patrick Swayze, or even Scott Smith's recent Stunt Junkie's segment on TV is great and catches eyeballs, but having "Average Joe" is better, in my opinion.
As an example, we took out a gentleman who trained as a paratrooper in WWII, but DDay came before he got the opportunity to jump during WWII.
So, as a very elderly man, his grandsons bought him a tandem so he could fulfill a 60 year wish. The news media, including CNN, picked up the story. We had quite a few folks come out as a result of seeing the elderly man jump. The mind set of "If he can do it, so can I" works quite well. We put out a record number of students in 06, and I believe a lot of it was related to the constant coverage of various skydiving events at our DZ, featuring "Average Joe."
Upshot, I believe tandems are great for getting eyeballs and experiences.

The one other thing I'll mention is that the Tandem Master is so critical in all this; if they've got a great attitude and make it fun for the student/passenger, it sure helps invite that student/passenger to continue with it because they had a great time. If they regard the student as nothing more than meat to be hauled, then the student likely won't want to return. I'm really glad I had a great TM when I first jumped, he made it fun for both of us, I think.
Some DZO's don't seem to recognize that the TM is more than half of the adventure, based on what I read here.[:/]

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Excellent point.

Tandems allow for a demographic shift. I has allowed to maintain skydiving's appeal in the aging boomer market.

Tandems have also provided skydiving with a product that has a greater appeal to the female market. Female participation is double than that of the IAD system.

What I think that we as DZOs and instructors need to do is take advantage of the individuals who walk onto the DZ to make a tandem. DZs spend thousands on marketing that mostly reaches people who would never jump. Once we come face to face with people who would jump, we need to be ambassadors for the sport. We shouldn't be hauling meat, we should be introducing future skydivers to the sport.

You're on the money with the importance of good TIs. The First jump course allowed for a bond between the student and instructor over the course of the day. Now a TI must bond with a student in a relatively short period of time. Combined with the pressure of a busy day when it's hot and humid and we are asking alot of our TIs.
Because Tandems have higher requirements, the TI pool is too small in some markets to ensure the cream of the crop. It also puts more pressure on the few that are TIs.

These are the challenges that the tandem market trend has placed on smaller markets. Customers now expect tandem service and the small DZ needs to find a way to make it work.

I don't believe the answer is marketing to the general populace (although that is crucial for success) but rather focusing on retaining jumpers that are walking through the door with service, community representation and goal setting.

As for Skyride ... Skyride does very little for promotion. They do not direct people to skydiving through advertising, they skim internet traffic that is already in existence, usually in existence because of the positive word of mouth coming from the local DZs.

Also it takes something like 6-8 good experiences to counter the word of mouth from 1 bad experience (there's a stat about it somewhere). With Skride's reputation for bad experience, I don't see Skyride as helping the sport in any way.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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This is an indicator that more people are quitting between the B and C license levels.



not necessarily. Many people just dont see the need, use, or expense in the 'additional' licenses. I'm one, and i know of at least 3 jumpers with more than 2000 jumps with only an 'A' as well (with more in between)

I can (and have) learn everything the 'additional' licenses require without taking any tests, or paying any more fees (and fee's seem like the driving organizational reason for additional licenses anyway)

to be perfectly honest i'm firmly against such forms of 'oversight' once you are signed off do what you wish (within the DZO's tolerance ofc) but then i'm generally against ANY form of regulation in personal recreation.

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Another new item is
- changing dz social environment
This happens more at the larger dzs. In order to be one of the 'cool kids' you have to FF or swoop.



this i agree with, but i see it more as an effect of treating the DZ strictly as a 'business'. Due to Management or Policies with the larger DZ's, most people have no desire to hang out any longer than the planes are running, which means the social bonds outside of your level and discipline are not formed at all. The Business First approach has driven out the 'Family Feeling' [:/]
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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Why do we feel it is so important for skydiving to get exposure and become mainstream? It seem that in trying to grow our sport that we have convinced many of the young jumpers that skydiving is safe. It's just not so and it's even more dangerous to let them think so. This sport is not for everyone, there is small few who are able to handle and also accept the risk involved. Yet we feel it necessary to try to get everyone to come play. I'm all for growing our sport, but we can't just try to push it on anyone, most of them are not cut out for it.

As far as do Tandems help or hurt membership, who cares. What you should be asking is do Tandems help or hurt the sport in general. The answer is they are a huge help. They help keep jump prices down. Would higher membership do this? Maybe, but not near as much as tandems do. They help DZs to turn a profit and therefore keep them in buisness for us to jump. Higher membership would help with this but without tandems it wouldn't matter for most DZs as they would not be able to stay afloat. Tandems let many experience the thrill, when they never would do so through another method. Tandems also help to bring many jumpers into our sport. Tandems are vital to this sport and I have been very suprised to this question being asked so much recently.

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This is an indicator that more people are quitting between the B and C license levels.



not necessarily. Many people just dont see the need, use, or expense in the 'additional' licenses. I'm one, and i know of at least 3 jumpers with more than 2000 jumps with only an 'A' as well (with more in between)

I can (and have) learn everything the 'additional' licenses require without taking any tests, or paying any more fees (and fee's seem like the driving organizational reason for additional licenses anyway)

to be perfectly honest i'm firmly against such forms of 'oversight' once you are signed off do what you wish (within the DZO's tolerance ofc) but then i'm generally against ANY form of regulation in personal recreation.

Quote

Another new item is
- changing dz social environment
This happens more at the larger dzs. In order to be one of the 'cool kids' you have to FF or swoop.



this i agree with, but i see it more as an effect of treating the DZ strictly as a 'business'. Due to Management or Policies with the larger DZ's, most people have no desire to hang out any longer than the planes are running, which means the social bonds outside of your level and discipline are not formed at all. The Business First approach has driven out the 'Family Feeling' [:/]



Yes that's right and we agree. (that's why I used the word 'indicator')
Just about everyone realizes that not everyone qualified for a particular license actually applies for that license.
OTOH, you could surmise that a certain percentage of jumpers qualified at each license level applies for said license.
If that population, qualified at said license level, decreases, then the number of licenses issued would also decrease.

Today's USPA C license is about equal to the old D license, yet the issue rate of the new C license is still less than the old D license rate.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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It's more the requirements of the manufacturers. CSPA just posted what their minimums are but manufacturers have their own.

Also, CSPA doesn't issue the rating, that is still the perview of the manufacturer. Racer, Sigma and Strong all require a D as far as I know.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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. Until DZ`s start treating every single Tandem as a Potential Aff Student, then we losing potential future Fun Jumpers..


I have thought about this before and thought maybe an "Intro to Skydiving Video" that explains what their options and what they could do next would be a great way for them to pass the time while waiting for their own Jump video to be edited and copied.

Good thoughts on the subject. I try to treat all my passengers that way and tell them that if they enjoyed their first jump, to maybe try taking the class. Under canopy I have them check and steer the canopy, explaining how a solo jump would work. Athletic students that seem especially enthused, I lead them over to manifest to discuss AFF and S/L training. The post-video idea sounds great, too.

I also think a part-time jumper program would be a good thing. Maybe S/L based, the occasional jumper could maybe pay a few dollars more for refresher training, but come out and make a S/L or hop and pop when he likes, instead of devoting his whole life to skydiving or breaking the bank making tandem after expensive tandem. Most sports accommodate the occasional participant much better than we do.

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The majority of people that jump for the first time these days is because of group polarity. A group of people want to jump, and while alone you most likely would not jump, the persuasion of the group pulls you along. One and done, the group pressure to jump is gone. Why not make the first and only jump a tandem? It takes less time for instructors and makes the DZO more money (if he owns the tandem rigs) Those who want to jump for a reason other than to impress their friends and say "I did it." will continue through whatever progression is available.



Somewhat in accordance with my experience. I never had ANY desire to be a skydiver until I went along with a group to do tandems. Three of us (17%) went on to get licensed, which is 3 more than would have done without the tandem experience.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Why do we feel it is so important for skydiving to get exposure and become mainstream?



I don't believe I suggested mainstream, and if that's the impression, my apologies.
However, the more people that experience a tandem jump, the more people exposed to the sport. The more exposures, the greater the pool from which AFF may grow from, which puts more jumpers into the pool.
The issue of retention has been addressed many times, which is why I didn't say much about it.
However, I do believe that the first tandem is the most critical jump in growing the sport for new jumpers. Is it for everyone? No. But the larger the pool, the more opportunity to grow the sport and stabilize. People are always gonna come and go; it's not a lifestyle for everyone, and these days (IMO) the biggest retention challenge doesn't come from cost (again, my 2cents), but rather complacency, marriage, babies, internet, couch potato.
Complacency on the part of the jumper, on the part of the DZO, and the lure of other whims..., and that's happening in all sports industries. This was a huge part of the Outdoor Recreation Show in SLC, Utah this past August; "how to retain people in the pursuit of outdoor sports."
Face it; we're a society of ADD people. Flip the channel, change the sport, whatever.

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worth repeating

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The one other thing I'll mention is that the Tandem Master is so critical in all this; if they've got a great attitude and make it fun for the student/passenger, it sure helps invite that student/passenger to continue with it because they had a great time. If they regard the student as nothing more than meat to be hauled, then the student likely won't want to return.


The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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You're on the money with the importance of good TIs.



So what defines good? When I fly on a commercial airline, how much of a "good vibe" the PIC gives me is completely secondary to their skillset.

Is "good" being a nice people person who throws the drouge to get stable?

Is "bad" a technically perfect TM who focuses on the task at hand?

I know what I would choose as a DZO, and I know what a whuffo would choose. They're not the same TM.

These are opposite extremes, of course, and most TM's lie somewhere in the middle. "Making friends" with 12 new people a day and convincing them that everything will be ok, even when you don't know it, and banking your life on it is hard work.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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Because Tandems have higher requirements, the TI pool is too small in some markets to ensure the cream of the crop. It also puts more pressure on the few that are TIs.



Do you not think this is heading towards a serious Catch-22 situation?

According to Jan's numbers, in addition to the overall decrease, the number of specifically C & D licences are decreasing. That means a smaller pool of potential new TIs. There must be attrition of existing TIs too. Given that the consensus seems that, for most of the operations, tandems are essential, the demand is eventually going to overtake the supply of TIs, even if the demand for tandems does not increase.



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You're on the money with the importance of good TIs.



So what defines good? When I fly on a commercial airline, how much of a "good vibe" the PIC gives me is completely secondary to their skillset.

Is "good" being a nice people person who throws the drouge to get stable?

Is "bad" a technically perfect TM who focuses on the task at hand?

I know what I would choose as a DZO, and I know what a whuffo would choose. They're not the same TM.

These are opposite extremes, of course, and most TM's lie somewhere in the middle. "Making friends" with 12 new people a day and convincing them that everything will be ok, even when you don't know it, and banking your life on it is hard work.

t



Tonto, I think maybe the answer to this _particular_ question lies in human nature. Some people are just plain assholes. Some people are generally happy and fun to be around.
Both kinds of people can be tandem masters that are skillful and safe. Both can leave exceptionally lasting impressions on the student. I personally don't think that the TM's responsibility is to make the student feel safe or unsafe, but rather embue a level of confidence in the student by their own actions, not so much words. But I'm not a TM, so what the hell do I know?:|
However, how many commercial jet pilots have had you sitting in their lap during the flight?

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You're right, there are many things that make up a good instructor.

Instructors develop in two basic ways, style and technique. A good instructor will be well balanced in both. While techinique can be taught (get stable before drogue, demonstrate landing pattern, have student pull/steer etc.)style is developed as the TI matures as an instructor. Style developement is very dependent on personality and attitude.

My reference was more that a small instructor pool limits your options in staffing and the prohibitive nature of the rating weins out some of the potentially good instructors before they have a chance to develop.

Another thing I alluded to is the fact that even good instructors will not perform at their best when they get overworked and burnt out. I feel my own quality of instruction begins to diminish. I don't talk to them as much in the plane, I become robotic in my instruction and I have less "after jump" interaction as the day wears on and more tandems are geared and ready to go.

Getting a rating does not a good instructor make.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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I also think a part-time jumper program would be a good thing. Maybe S/L based, the occasional jumper could maybe pay a few dollars more for refresher training, but come out and make a S/L or hop and pop when he likes, instead of devoting his whole life to skydiving or breaking the bank making tandem after expensive tandem. Most sports accommodate the occasional participant much better than we do.



LOL, John, your so right about that. But now days very few DZ's offer S/L anymore, and more and more DZ's are getting rid of the program, for many reasons.

Your class of 75, right? How much was a FJC or a refresher class + lift in 75? Where I was I think a FJC was still 35 or 45 bucks, but it may have been as high as 75, I think slots were 8 to 10 to 7.5.
(Today's avg. is FJC 189.00 and retrain is 75.00. slots are 49.00w/rig S/L solo)

S/L takes a long time to train VS TDM, less cash flow VS TDM or AFF per student.(But cost less to put out per student) We still offer it, and get people who did 1,2,,3,4,5,10 jumps back in the 70's, 80's and 90's who show up again, but now with their kids and grandkids to jump. And a lot of them want to do S/L like pop's did, some want to TDM. We get a lot of collage students who can't afford to do to AFF or TDM progression and they would fall into the "part time" jumper group.

If we didn't still offer S/L we would lose a lot of students due to cost factors, many of the S/L's we get don't stay current and have to refresh and drcp again, but the cost is low in their mind, so they return later and often bring buget minded friends. We offer them a second jump for 30 if they buy it then and are current (good for yr. w/out retrain fee) most make a second that day.

While our S/L numbers are in decline, due to our push towards AFF, it has been a good program to keep around. Some people do a couple aff jumps and then due to cost go to S/L or go from S/L to AFF in the upper levels of the programs.

Poster Floats18 on here is a very good example of how S/L can work to build the student base. I first saw a post by him on here about 3 yrs ago, saying he had two S/L jumps and wanted to save up to do AFF, but was a collage student. I sent him a PM to send him to a friends DZ to look into S/L and packing to pay for jumps. It turns out he was close to where I was jumping at the time, so he showed up with one of our staff I hooked him up with for a ride share, checked out the place, and then we couldn't get rid of the guy. He worked his ass off learning to pack and packed all weekend or did whatever (DZ SLUT:P) to pay for his jumps, he did I think 150 the first year and earned a coach. He went on to restart his schools skydiving club and started to bring large groups out to jump in all programs. He is still jumping and being a pain in the ass some place on the east coast.;):$:)
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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As a TM, I found my best and most memorable tandems were the ones when I got the pax to reveal just a little more of who they were.
We can learn something from everyone. Something special happens when they are emboldened by our skill and confidence, and we feed off their energy and excitement. There is great power in shared experience.:)
Having said that, the oportunity for that bond developing during the regular tandem timeframe is slim, and it happens more often and easily for me during AFF.

Time is the most precious thing that we have. I just find it easier and more rewarding to spend that time with people who are more committed to the sport I love. While USPA membership dwindles towards 30000, our PASA membership sits at around 700. Putting the time and the effort into those who want to stay is far more valuable to me than trying to attract those who show little interest.

But I digress..

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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There are a few things to consider when thinking about Tandems and small DZs

1.) Tandems have created their own demand. - years ago people called the DZ to do a first jump no matter what it was, now, thanks to media exposure, they call to do a tandem. This means small DZs must offer them to maintain studnets.

2.) Tandems increase the requirements for instructors - Small DZs once relied on fun jumpers in the community for staff and support. Tandems have created to large a chasm between funjumper and instructor. The old small DZ model is breaking down.

3.) TIs expect more compensation - When you consider the age of someone who has put in the time to become a TI, you find many who require a higher wage for their time. If Tandems do not pay enough to fulfill their needs, they will work elsewhere or view tandems as "not worth the hassle".

4.) A career TI will go where the money is - A small DZ cannot support fulltime professional staff. That leaves the Parttime TI who usually has a fulltime job of his own and only comes on weekends. This type of jumper has low availability, concentrating the tandem demand and making burnout much more likely.

I think that in the future, a new small DZ model must arise or else DZs will boil down to a few large DZs that can achieve economies of scale by concentrating demand, instructors and airpower.

That means that many smaller markets will be underserviced with only small clubs or lowcost outhouse operations surviving.

In Canada, where jump aircraft are highley regulated, it could mean the obliteration of skydiving in small markets altogether. Currently, there are areas in Canada where the nearest canadian DZ is 8-10 hours away and it may only get worse.

In small markets it is a true catch 22. The market wants a product that doesn't work with the traditional small DZ model.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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In remembering the sensory overload of the first couple of AFF jumps, when I talk to someone who has never jumped,I tell them to do a tandem just to get a handle on the feeling of freefall.

There's a lot happening on AFF1 and I wouldn't want that to be my first experience.

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The USPA, in my opinion, needs to market more heavily to the 18-25 crowd, and to the 30-55 demographic if they want to keep their share of the adrenaline market pie.


Skydiving was something I always wanted to try but could never get anyone else to go with. Then life just got in the way and never got around to it. So for my 40th bday I drove an hour and a half to the DZ and do a tandem so I could cross it off my "things to do list".

The last year and 5 months have been the best of my life and only regret not doing it sooner. This sport has allowed me to make great friends and meet people from all over the world. Love it so much I now live 20 min away from the DZ. Without that first tandem I never would have got to experience all that I have. I'll probably always just be a weekend fun jumper but get to improve and have a ball along the way. TM are a very important part of making the potential students experience a good one.

Just my 2 cents.

Noooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!! M.P.F.C.

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