Tandems, Hurting or helping membership?

[skydived19006 4]

Here’s a fun statistic I noticed. I got my “A” license in 1995, #19518, so it took the USPA the first 30+ years to hit the 20,000 mark (this isn’t scientific by any means, because not every skydiver applies for an “A” number). Today, 11 years later the A numbers are over 50,000. When you talk about membership going up/down, I think it’s less an issue of the number of students becoming skydivers (student retention), but skydivers not staying in the sport for long after getting licensed (skydiver retention).

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[kallend 1,936]

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You're on the money with the importance of good TIs.

So what defines good? When I fly on a commercial airline, how much of a "good vibe" the PIC gives me is completely secondary to their skillset.

Is "good" being a nice people person who throws the drouge to get stable?

Is "bad" a technically perfect TM who focuses on the task at hand?

I know what I would choose as a DZO, and I know what a whuffo would choose. They're not the same TM.


t

Most people have a different objective when flying commercially than when making a skydive. I neither want nor expect a fun filled day when I fly on United. I just want to get where I'm going with the minimum of hassle. On the other hand, if a skydive isn't fun, why do it at all?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zenister 0]

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In remembering the sensory overload of the first couple of AFF jumps, when I talk to someone who has never jumped,I tell them to do a tandem just to get a handle on the feeling of freefall.

There's a lot happening on AFF1 and I wouldn't want that to be my first experience.

i'm damn glad it was.. granted i had military static line experience prior, but when i did my 'first' (and second) tandem (as a 'dummy' for someone working on their TI rating) i was profoundly disappointed in the experience.. I honestly dont think i'd have continued if i'd done a tandem as a 'rollercoaster ride' the way many people seem to...

but then i've always taken pride in being personally responsible for my actions and my fate, so perhaps the 'cargo' ride is more enjoyable for different personality types..

for the same reason i've never really enjoyed bungie jumping.. as someone once put it.. 'your corpse would have performed exactly the same' no effort involved...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[chrismgtis 0]

I can't see Tandems hurting the sport one bit. It has to do more for the sport than any other type of skydiving. If there were not tandems, a lot of people would not consider skydiving.

Personally, I didn't know it was possible to do AFF and jump unattached to another jumper until I did a lot of research and most people will not take the time to research what they are thinking about doing. I'm not really sure if I would have even considered it. I think in a lot of ways I really needed that assurance that there was an experienced jumper in control on my first dive. It makes the decision to skydive a whole lot easier.

One issue I know we have is that the only exposure skydiving does get is the negative exposure. You don't see commercials on TV about local drop zones. You don't see television shows about how exciting and safe skydiving really is and can be. You don't hear about all the fun skydivers have at boogies and the great community that skydiving has that you just can't get in many places.

I think we really need to take the step to televise the good things about skydiving. The public has no way to know about how safe the sport can be and the fun we have. When most people think about freefalling they imagine a gut wrenching fall from the sky that they can only really compare to a really insane rollercoaster ride and it's nothing like that.

Sometimes I am amazed at how many tandems I do see every day at the DZ, even in the winter. I find myself wondering how so many people know about this sport in driving distance of the DZ to fill up slots every single day, because I never heard a thing whatsoever in my entire life about this sport except what I saw on TV. Which leads me to believe it's all nothing but word of mouth. That's it.

If I never heard anything about the sport whatsoever except the negative news and the skydives I saw at a few airshows, I know most people have the same exposure or even less than I did.

The responsibility pretty much lies with the jumpers. Tell people about the sport and make sure they know it is safe (and that their is a risk, but not as much as the media leads us to believe). As for drop zones, I think those that can afford to need to really put together some great videos, not only of skydives but of the community and information about what the REAL risk is when skydiving and televise it.

This is also the Internet age. It can be a huge tool, as much or more so than television. Television is expensive, the Internet is virtually free in lots of ways. We need to take advantage of that.

I believe that if DZOs really want to bring in more tandems, they need to get some exposure on the radio, television and Internet. I know it can be expensive, but the return it would generate (if done correctly) should be more than enough to compensate.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[L.O. 0]

I know my view is probably a little strange. But this is it. I wish skydiving would return to what it once was. Even though skydiving was out of its infancy when I started, it was still a sport that demanded competence. If you were unable to make it back to the DZ on your own, it sucked to be you. If you didn't flair at the correct altitude, oh well. If you couldn't fly your body or your canopy correctly you would soon fall by the wayside and fade away.

Tandems allow those people who generally reside at the bottom of Darwins pyramid, to be skydivers. I have to say, that tandems have made my skydiving career much better. I make enough money to pay my jumpbill and then some. I would personally have to give up a lot of skydiving if we didn't have tadems. That said, I would still not mind if they didn't exist.

Tandems make the sport I am so proud to be a part of, into a joke, a ride, a side show.

If the DZ treats the tandem as a serious training tool and it is approached as such, by the student, we have a totally different situation. I have seen perhaps one or two DZs that treat tandems this way.

If we can change the way we do tandems, we may be able to weed out the weak and cull the herd so to speak. but until that day, tandems will continue to make a joke of the sport. The numbers of regular jumpers will decline. I will still be here, forever, loving every second. But, when you look into my eyes you will see the tears I hold back for the sport, as it slowly fades.

We must not allow tandems to be such a game. We have to change the mentality behind them. Make them into a serious training tool and we will change the way the public sees skydiving. Maybe at that point, we will become a greater attraction to those people who want to be part of something great.

I know a lot of you out there were once tandem students. Certain people we will get weather we treat the tandem as a game or as a tool.

It's people like me, that you wouldn't attract with the amusment park thing. The sports I have been a part of in my life have always been the most extreme. years of racing motorcycles, a black belt, flying airplanes, stuff like that. If everyone can be a skydiver a person like me wouldn't have started doing it in the first place.

I am so melodramatic. I think it makes people pay attention. maybe after reading this and saying "wow, what a drama queen" you will remember it. We need to change tandems, not get rid of them. Thats the final word and that sums up all I've said. Thanks for listening.

I have to head to the gym. later.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[JoeyRamone 0]

The cost to sdkydive is the main issue I would think. 2000 to do AFF or AFP, then another 2-6 grand for a rig, etc.

[L.O. 0]

If the monetary issues involved with the sport are a problem, go static line. You can buy good used gear. We had four kids start and get gear this year. The most spent from beginning to end was about 2500 including rigs, jumps and coachng.

It gets harder every day to find them, but the DZs that are only there for the fun of it are still around.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[jm951 0]

For those who think that cost is an issue, look at what it costs to do something else, downhill skiing, mountaineering, racing, boating, rv, 4 wheeling. All of those activities involve significant amounts of money either in equipment or recurring fees.

Let's look at big time fishing. I have neighbors in my little corner of nowhere that have no problem buying a $10k bass boat but whine over $.05/gal increase in gas. Others have a rolling second home behind which they tow another car. Ever price an RV including fuel, ins, food and campground costs? A four wheeler can easily crack $8-9k and that doesn't include a trailer to tow it on. How about a serious money pit, a boat.

It all boils down to what sport appeals most to the customer. There aren't as many adrenaline junkies out there as we would think. Another angle to look at is the perceived risk factor. There is nearly equivalent risk in the other sports that the participants don't think about when considering skydiving. If you ski, you could always pull a Sony Bono, your bass boat may do a fair rendition of the Titannic or an Andrea Doria rut roh. Brakes fail on the Winny on a 6% downhill.

I've always looked at skydiving as something I wanted to do at some point in my life, but I didn't want tandem. The cost of climbing was a wash, but it was far more accessible. I think skydiving may have an image and accessibility problem for the average guy. It still is perceived as a very risky sport (stats don't bear this out) but with many perception is 90% of reality. Tandem has a place as a starting point for some, as does SL and my fav- AFF. I would think that tandem is helping somewhat, but it's not the only entry point for the noob.

[aguila 0]

I have noticed that the more tandems in the plane, the lower the jump altitude, the more danger of collision and the more bored skydivers tied up to the ground. IMHO, I prefer jumping with no tandems around.

Maybe it is different in other drop zones and of course people have the right to do and enjoy tandem jumps

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[DougH 270]

How do you tie tandems with collisions?

Can you be more specific please! Are you referring to collisions between experienced jumpers, between experienced jumpers and tandems; in freefall or under canopy?

I agree if they don't have the ability to service both fun jumpers and tandems there tend to be a bunch of bored jumpers on the ground. But maybe that is a good sign that it is time for the dz to grow.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[aguila 0]

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How do you tie tandems with collisions?

I have had two issues with tandems, identical causes, being the last four days ago:

A friend of mine wanted to learn how to use a cam and I was supposed to do some acrobatic maneuvers while he filmed. The first jumping was a tandem. We should follow them.

When I was out of the door saw a big cloud coming straight to us. I should not wait much to avoid it so that I could keep an eye on the tandem. The video showed I waited 7 seconds after the tandem before jumping.

I jumped followed by my friend and did some maneuvers (no tracking). Unfortunately we could not avoid the cloud and after 30 seconds or so, I just saw white all around. I usually enjoy crossing clouds but I was very worried about the tandem and tried to spot it.

Got it! As soon as I was about to leave the cloud - 4000 ft, I spotted the tandem with the canopy open right below me. I cannot tell exactly how far, maybe 450 ft.

I just tracked as fast as possible, saw a fast shadow on my right side, lost some balance, recovered,, etc, etc, and landed.

My friend saw it all and filmed it. While the video is not good at all with his help I could find myself crossing in FF 50 ft behind the tandem that happily crossed the air with the canopy open and did not even see us.

This is the second time it happens to me and I was much more closer to crash.. Tandems should be the last jumping. I do not like to jump with tandems around.

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[PhreeZone 20]

Tandems are last at almost every other Dropzone in the world due the them opening higher and being able to fly back from further away. Unless there is some overwhelming reason that tandems need to go first I would see if you can't talk to the other jumpers at the DZ and get the tandems to go last.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[aguila 0]

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Tandems are last at almost every other Dropzone in the world due the them opening higher and being able to fly back from further away. Unless there is some overwhelming reason that tandems need to go first I would see if you can't talk to the other jumpers at the DZ and get the tandems to go last.

I have told them that several times but they have not paid attention. I wished I could find a way to convince them before we see fatalities.

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[diablopilot 2]

It is 100% your responsibility to avoid any sort of collision or conflict with a tandem, if needed, wait 30 seconds.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[aguila 0]

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It is 100% your responsibility to avoid any sort of collision or conflict with a tandem, if needed, wait 30 seconds.

Is not that easy when your DZ is small, has 2 big rivers and one lake nearby, a big cloud is coming to you, plus the fact that you have 14 more eager to jump people pushing behind you and who literally would kick you out of the plane if do not jump pretty fast, plus the fact that you have just convinced the pilots to go 2500 ft higher and they have not taken lunch yet

No kidding! That was the environment

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[steveorino 7]

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It is 100% your responsibility to avoid any sort of collision or conflict with a tandem, if needed, wait 30 seconds.

Is not that easy when your DZ is small, has 2 big rivers and one lake nearby, a big cloud is coming to you, plus the fact that you have 14 more eager to jump people pushing behind you and who literally would kick you out of the plane if do not jump pretty fast, plus the fact that you have just convinced the pilots to go 2500 ft higher and they have not taken lunch yet

No kidding! That was the environment

If you guys got 15 (14 + you) going AFTER a tandem you guys are jusking ASKING for a fatality. If that was my DZs policy (tandems jump first), I'd jump else where.

steveOrino

[Andy9o8 2]

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It is 100% your responsibility to avoid any sort of collision or conflict with a tandem, if needed, wait 30 seconds.

Is not that easy when your DZ is small, has 2 big rivers and one lake nearby, a big cloud is coming to you, plus the fact that you have 14 more eager to jump people pushing behind you and who literally would kick you out of the plane if do not jump pretty fast, plus the fact that you have just convinced the pilots to go 2500 ft higher and they have not taken lunch yet

No kidding! That was the environment

Your point is well-taken; but nevertheless, once one set of jumpers exits, responsibility for assuring adequate exit separation rests with the next jumper(s) in the door. If the jumpers behind you or the terrain won't let you assure yourself of a traffic-free column of sky, eat the cost of the jump ticket and don't jump.

[aguila 0]

[ROK 0]

From a business perspective, I'm constantly weighing cost -vs- profit situations. It's a damn disease from being in the business world so long. I ask every morning that I'm at the DZ how many tandems there are for the day. I think about the cost of the planes, maint., pilots, fuel, insurance, etc.
Inadvertently, I'm forcasting the survival of the business, which in turn allows me to know that the sport I love will be there for me.

From this perspective, tandems are the fuel that keeps the machine running. I'm glad to see them. They have never bumped me for tandems, and I like to see and feel the excitement of someone making their first jump.

I went to the DZ for the first time to pick up some literature for my friend to make a jump. I stood there and watched Pip land, went to the bank and came back with $2200, signed up for AFF and haven't looked back. I felt the adrenaline and thrill watching that one hook turn landing, and wanted it (although, I don't do hook turns on my landings!)

As far as jumper retention, I believe that there should be a little more structure and offering for the different skill levels. Regular structured classes that will group people according to their strengths and weaknesses for training. I know that organizers put people together, but more structure and direct training in groups would be nice.

From what I know of the license structure, I believe that it's well thought out and a system of steps and goals that are needed.

[DougH 270]

Lets try not to forget that lots of tandems keep a constant stream of cute new girls on the DZ.

I learned how to jump at a DZ that is primarily a tandem dropzone. There is much larger number of tandem jumps then experienced jumps at my DZ.

I love watching how excited new tandem students are. I just wish as a fun jumper there was more I could do to get them to come back. I talk with them in great detail about AFF and becoming a student. I talk with them about the sport and that most people can be taught to be a skydiver. It doesn't seem to make a difference. They don't want to be students for the most part, it is just an expensive amusement park ride for them. For most I don't think it matters how you pitch it to them, you're just Six Flags for the day.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[steveorino 7]

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I love watching how excited new tandem students are. I just wish as a fun jumper there was more I could do to get them to come back. I talk with them in great detail about AFF and becoming a student. I talk with them about the sport and that most people can be taught to be a skydiver. It doesn't seem to make a difference. They don't want to be students for the most part, it is just an expensive amusement park ride for them. For most I don't think it matters how you pitch it to them, you're just Six Flags for the day.

I recently wrote a Master's level thesis proposal about skydiving and personality groups. Some of what I learned is the main reason anyone skydives initially is group polarity. A group of people/friends say let's do this! The willing and at times the very hesitant will make that jump. Call it peer pressure. Once that initial jump is completed the influence of the group is greatly reduced.

The main reason people return is they desire to identify with a sub culture. So, keep doing what you are doing! You are making it easier for the few that will return to stick by including them.

steveOrino

[DougH 270]

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The main reason people return is they desire to identify with a sub culture. So, keep doing what you are doing! You are making it easier for the few that will return to stick by including them.

Oh I won't stop. I think the one thing most jumpers like almost as much as skydiving, is talking about skydiving. I enjoy talking to them about the sport!!

I agree with the peer pressure element, but I have seen the same thing play out with individuals who have shown up all by themselves because they wanted to skydive.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Inthebuff 0]

Some sunny day I want to dock on my brother as he experiences the thrill of a Tandem Skydive.
He has some minor disabilities and I know that he will never be able to take up skydiving as I have ,so that fact that he can experience what I do by doing a Tandem.............well it gets my vote.

I seen videos where skydivers have docked onto a Tandem Student.Anyone out there know what the criteria is to be able to do that ?

***********************************
Fly Like Zie Eagle, Not Like Zie Chicken !
Good advice from an instructor I know.

[billvon 2,921]

>Anyone out there know what the criteria is to be able to do that ?

Some manufacturers require an AFF rating; that's a good guideline.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Alot of DZs take that on a case by case basis.Your local instructors know how well you fly and if you are capable.my wife did her fist tandem on my 100th jump and I was allowed to come in and dock.Flame away everyone.