Tension knots

[jtval 0]

So I was reading the incident forums and Ive been bothered by the tension knot thing for a few years now.

are there fixes for a knot that you can not remove?
If I found myslef in this situation under a reserve I would pull the other toggle down to level my flight.
if there was danger of collapse I would only do this until I was able to pull my hook knife out and cut the steering line.
I would land my reserve with rear risers.


(of, course I am not criticizing decsions made by others but I am courius if you have a plan/ suggestion)

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[piisfish 135]

the tension knot might not be on a steering line.
IMO that's what knives are for. but be sure to identify the correct line(s) you need to chop.
landing a reserve on rears is NO PROBLEM

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[jtval 0]

Well True they may not be in the steering line. and there may be more than one. but the hook knife may save your ass.

at the very least I would try to nullify the turn, even if I had to land in a shitty area.

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[dontiego 0]

How do tension knots look like?
Like a knot on a line? How can they come there?

"We call on the common man to rise up in revolt against this evil of typographical ignorance."
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[kingbunky 3]

i thought that a tension knot was the result of a twisted line. a steering line can become twisted when the toggle is released either on landing or at some point during the canopy flight. this is the reason that i run my lines every 5 or 10 jumps from the canopy to the toggles. i would think that the only way any other line could get a tension know would be if it was twisted when attaching the canopy to the risers.

...or am i completely off base?

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[JohnMitchell 14]

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How do tension knots look like?
Like a knot on a line? How can they come there?

As your lines deploy, there is a certain amount of "chaos" in the mix. If a loose loop or two of line get together just right, then tension is applied by the opening canopy, you cna find a nice new knot in the middle of everything. Old line seem to be more susceptible, maybe less stiff and not as slick, so they loop more and grab more.

[AggieDave 6]

I've had a tension knot from that. I've also had it at seemingly random spots on the canopy due to worn dacron lines getting fuzzy, clingy and a bit of slack during a weird opening.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Reginald 0]

Well the knots may not be on the steering lines; cutting suspension lines may be make the situation worse. Also, under a partially inflated reserve that is spinning a person’s options may be highly limited. This is especially true under a highly loaded reserve; the malfunction may be so dynamic that any action could be difficult let alone neutralizing the spin and cutting lines.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[BIGUN 1,051]

I agree with Reg. Cutting lines below a knot is still a knot below the canopy and I'm fairly confident you wouldn't be making the situation worse.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Ron 7]

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are there fixes for a knot that you can not remove?

Not that I know.

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If I found myslef in this situation under a reserve I would pull the other toggle down to level my flight.

I am sure she tried that. You can see from the video that it did not work.

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if there was danger of collapse I would only do this until I was able to pull my hook knife out and cut the steering line.

#1 it is not always the steering line. I had a tension knot on my "A" line on my main.

#2. Hooknswoop did a test where he packed himself a mal and had a hook knife. Even knowing what was going to happen...He was unable to use the hook knife to fix the problem.

#3. Even cutting the line may not help the situation. The tangle is still there.

Of course it might help...But I have my doubts.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

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How do tension knots look like?
Like a knot on a line? How can they come there?

A tension knot without the tension.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 7]

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i thought that a tension knot was the result of a twisted line. a steering line can become twisted when the toggle is released either on landing or at some point during the canopy flight. this is the reason that i run my lines every 5 or 10 jumps from the canopy to the toggles. i would think that the only way any other line could get a tension know would be if it was twisted when attaching the canopy to the risers

Half kinda correct.

A tension knot is when the lines get tangled during opening. It can be one line that ties itself into a knot, or several lines that get tied together. I remember being told that it most times happens to lines with twists in them since a twisted line WANTS to untwist and it can cause it to create loops.

I had a single line tension knot on an "A" line on my main. It was just enough that I could correct it with toggle...But I did not have a warm fuzzy feeling so I chopped it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[catfishhunter 1]

At least you have a Plan to keep yourself busy while waiting for the planet to swallow you up. The key thing that was mentioned is highly loaded reserve. That is the one thing that has never made any sense to me. I know people want cool tiny rigs but It doesn't make sense to me to have a sub 100' reserve or even a sub 150. I want my last chance to be the best chance. I don't need to be swoopin' my reserve. I would be comfortable in my abilites in keeping a "larger" reserve survivable with a tension not then a tiny pocket rocket reserve

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[JohnRich 4]

They're called "tension" knots because they are only held in place while there is tension on the lines (usually). Often, as soon as one lands with them and the tension is released, they come apart all by themselves.

So, one technique to try, if you have the time, is to pull down on the lines and then release them sharply, like drawing a bow string and releasing it to shoot an arrow. Sometimes the temporary slack as you release the lines will allow the lines to clear themselves.

I had such a tension knot once, luckily enough, on a cross-country jump - a hop n' pop from 12,500'. After resisting the urge to cut-away immediately, I worked with it for a while, and got it to clear using the above technique.

Warning: this may take more time than you've got, so don't lose track of your altitude, if you're monkeying around with a knot on a main canopy. Of course, on a reserve canopy, fight it to the end.

[billvon 2,392]

>I know people want cool tiny rigs but It doesn't make sense to
>me to have a sub 100' reserve or even a sub 150.

Yep. One thing that would help would be manufacturers offering containers sized to fit small mains and larger reserves. That would give swoopers the option to get a PD-143R without having their mains be dangerously loose in their main containers. (Some already do this; most do not.)

[jtval 0]

Ron, Actually I was thinking about holly's malfunction. from what I understand she had problems at the riser.
IIRC she didnt have time to figure out wtf happened. her mal started around 500ftAGL


I was using that model as a basis for my "evaluation" but I was adding 200ft to my example.


I know I didnt state a specific situation I didthat to see what kinda of feedback I would get. there are some thingsI didnt think about whenthey shared their examples

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I know people want cool tiny rigs but It doesn't make sense to me to have a sub 100' reserve or even a sub 150.

Not all swoopers want tiny rigs. I have a PD143R in my Wings container to go along with my JVX 96 main (or Velo 103 main) and I also know that guys like Paul R. (proswooper here on DZ.COM) is now jumping a much larger reserve ever since he went to a JVX made out of sail material.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I was thinking about holly's malfunction

Wasn't Holly mal a problem where her control lines got wrapped around an exposed slink and made worse by having her slider grommet tangled with the control line and slink? So wasn't the lesson on her jump to ensure that you're slinks can not get tangled with the control lines as well as ensure that the slider grommet either be pulled down all the way on the risers and/or ensure that the grommet is stopped before the slink by using slider stops?

Holly's mal and Mariann's mal were two very different issues.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

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Not all swoopers want tiny rigs. I have a PD143R in my Wings container to go along with my JVX 96 main (or Velo 103 main) and I also know that guys like Paul R. (proswooper here on DZ.COM) is now jumping a much larger reserve ever since he went to a JVX made out of sail material.

I'm getting a Velo 120 and sticking with my PDr-176.

A small rig is neat, if you're a small person. With my weight and size it would be ludicris for me to have a 120-ish reserve.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[faulknerwn 36]

I once had a tension knot on my Lightning 113 CRW main. Since I opened at 12k I had plenty of time to play with it. What I finally noticed after a few thousand feet was that one of the lines on my links was slack. So I reached up and pulled on the slack line, and poof, it cleared itself. I had done lots of stalls and such without luck before I noticed this...

W

[marks 0]

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I once had a tension knot on my Lightning 113 CRW main. Since I opened at 12k I had plenty of time to play with it. What I finally noticed at a few thousand feet was that one of the lines on my links was slack. So I reached up and pulled on the slack line, and poof, it cleared itself. I had done lots of stalls and such without luck before I noticed this...

W

that is great info.

[StreetScooby 5]

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that is great info.

Agreed.

We are all engines of karma

[jtval 0]

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[
Wasn't Holly mal a problem where her control lines got wrapped around an exposed slink and made worse by having her slider grommet tangled with the control line and slink?

Yes.

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So wasn't the lesson on her jump to ensure that you're slinks can not get tangled with the control lines as well as ensure that the slider grommet either be pulled down all the way on the risers and/or ensure that the grommet is stopped before the slink by using slider stops?

Yup

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Holly's mal and Mariann's mal were two very different issues.

I was never comparing the two. I understand that it is a recent incident and yes, after reading about it, it made me wonder but I dont know enough abot mariann's mal to ask about it.


I asked about a tension knot assuming it was near the steering line. I never criticized her decision or holly's. I was simply asking for a discussion about tension knots so that if I ever find myself in the same situation I may be better informed. FWIF, thank you for the clarification.

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I was never comparing the two.

No problem-o ...

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I dont know enough abot mariann's mal

Despite witnessing Mar's spinning mal (from a considerable distance), I don't think we know enough about what exactly happened. I saw Jim Slatons post earlier today mentioning that it was a "tension knot", but I'm not sure if he's still going on what most people think went wrong or if the Master Rigger (I believe Billy R was the one) has completed his rig inspection yet.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Tonto 1]

As someone who has had tension knots cause a reserve malfunction, I can tell you that solving the problem can be a lot more complicated than looking for the line you need to cut.

It is the tension between the knot and the canopy that causes your problem. Cutting lines is not always the solution.

Rather than "having a plan" for this type of scenario, you should have deep understanding of what inputs affect your canopy, and how to try to balance those inputs when they are given by something other than you.

An aware, open mind is probably your best defense in these highly variable situations.

Sometimes, regardless of experience, skill, currency and choice of equipment, this sport will still kill you. You are never too good not to die skydiving. That is the only simple truth.

t

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