happythoughts 0 #51 January 31, 2007 Quoteoops. Here's that picture: That is a great shot. I have never got a good pic from a jet exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #52 February 1, 2007 QuoteNote I am not asking if this jump would be fun or advisable, only if it would be possible for trained professionals. The same "trained professionals", that would perform this task, have been hired as security advisors to prevent this from occurring. Overall, if someone on this forum could explain how to do it, the same scenario has been considered by the airline industry in order to prevent it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Loonix 0 #53 February 1, 2007 QuoteQuoteNote I am not asking if this jump would be fun or advisable, only if it would be possible for trained professionals. The same "trained professionals", that would perform this task, have been hired as security advisors to prevent this from occurring. Overall, if someone on this forum could explain how to do it, the same scenario has been considered by the airline industry in order to prevent it. where there's a will, there's a way.. I think that holds true, if you throw in a pile of money as well As for A-train, I'd like to know more specifics about your scenario.. are these "trained professionals" hijackers? Should they be able to escape without being noticed? Can they kill someone to achieve their goal? Some info here would be nice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brettski74 0 #54 February 1, 2007 QuoteAs for A-train, I'd like to know more specifics about your scenario.. are these "trained professionals" hijackers? Should they be able to escape without being noticed? Can they kill someone to achieve their goal? That's getting way too serious. Why can't it just be some bored millionaire that wants to do it for shits and giggles - someone like Richard Branson. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites A-Train 0 #55 February 1, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteNote I am not asking if this jump would be fun or advisable, only if it would be possible for trained professionals. The same "trained professionals", that would perform this task, have been hired as security advisors to prevent this from occurring. Overall, if someone on this forum could explain how to do it, the same scenario has been considered by the airline industry in order to prevent it. As for A-train, I'd like to know more specifics about your scenario.. are these "trained professionals" hijackers? Should they be able to escape without being noticed? Can they kill someone to achieve their goal? Some info here would be nice Yes, the commandos would be hijackers. They would have been able to rehearse the maneuver many times previously on the exact same type of plane. They would want to escape the plane without being noticed by the passengers, who would, however, all have been sent to the back of the plane. Yes, they would be willing to kill people, specifically the pilots. If you would like more details about this scenario, feel free to e-mail me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,380 #56 February 1, 2007 >Overall, if someone on this forum could explain how to do it, >the same scenario has been considered by the airline industry in >order to prevent it. I think perhaps you might be overestimating the imaginations of aircraft manufacturers. They sometimes have trouble anticipating even things like oxygen-generator fires or rapid rudder excursions; anticipating clever things someone like Scott Smith could think up is asking a little much. While I was working on an MD-80 demo I noted that it would be pretty easy to get out of the plane via the cockpit door to the e-bay to the external e-bay hatch. The maintenance people I was working with were all pretty adamant that this was not possible - you could not open the door in flight due to the pressure difference, and if you tried to exit at 200mph you'd be killed instantly by the cold, pressure and impact of the air on your body. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #57 February 1, 2007 QuoteI think perhaps you might be overestimating the imaginations of aircraft manufacturers. I would say that any speculation on airline security by me, or anyone on this forum, is just that - speculation. Since 9-11, it is reasonable to assume that things have taken a very large leap forward in seriousness. (Even if they can't keep people out of the wheel wells.) Years ago (I cannot find a link), a SEAL team was tasked with determining if a hijacker could leave an airliner in flight. Those were the "trained professionals" that I referenced earlier. So, efforts in this area were taken back in a more casual era. DB Cooper proved that it could be done. That exit has been eliminated. I think that the OP is giving this a lot of thought. I think that the airline industry has given it a lot more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #58 February 1, 2007 If, the scenario is about hijackers escaping; it's simply a waste of time since hijackers have already demonstrated willingness to continue to fly the plane to crash it. Them departing the plane simply means the hostages have a better chance to foil the plot. If the scenario is about a "hero" escaping -- it doesn't matter.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #59 February 1, 2007 QuoteIf, the scenario is about hijackers escaping; it's simply a waste of time since hijackers have already demonstrated willingness to continue to fly the plane to crash it. Them departing the plane simply means the hostages have a better chance to foil the plot. If the scenario is about a "hero" escaping -- it doesn't matter. The whole thread is about making an escape from a flying airliner. The willingness to die thing is not new. During the Black September days (before Arafat became the kinder, gentler politician ), there were two failed attempts to crash a jet into Tel Aviv by killing the pilots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites A-Train 0 #60 February 1, 2007 QuoteIf, the scenario is about hijackers escaping; it's simply a waste of time since hijackers have already demonstrated willingness to continue to fly the plane to crash it. Them departing the plane simply means the hostages have a better chance to foil the plot. But what if the hijackers weren't who we think they are? What if they're someone else who doesn't want to die? However, I'd like this thread to stick just to the theoretical possibility of parachuting out of a 757/767. I've posted a more "political" treatment of this issue on the Speakers section of the Forum. Those who want to delve into a more fleshed-out description of the scenario I'm talking about can go there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #61 February 2, 2007 From your thread in SC ("Were the 9/11 hijackers Israeli agents, disguised as Arabs?"), it's apparent you're asking this because you think Zionist Israeli Mossad agents hijacked the planes; but being Zionists, naturally they're gutless, so they must have escaped from the planes before they crashed. Very sharp of you to deduce that. So your answer is this: the average person could not escape from the small hatch on the plane, but Zionists probably could, because they're...well...slippery. There ya go. Mystery solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 93 #62 February 2, 2007 QuoteSo your answer is this: the average person could not escape from the small hatch on the plane, but Zionists probably could, because they're...well...slippery. There ya go. Mystery solved. Quite right. The answer is yes, it is easy to do it. Now there is no reason for A-train to visit this site.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #63 February 2, 2007 QuoteThese were done with lines and mirrors. I remember those days. They were done with lines on mirrors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zing 2 #64 February 2, 2007 I'm sure I have absoltively, posulutely no idea what you're referencing there ... I was busy jumping or flying the airplanes, although there used to be some sort of ritual in the cockpit that involved higher altitudes. Nowadays, jumpers seem to expect more tudes for the mere sight of a pair of tits ... but my memories could be faulty.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #65 February 2, 2007 QuoteFrom your thread in SC ("Were the 9/11 hijackers Israeli agents, disguised as Arabs?"), it's apparent you're asking this because you think Zionist Israeli Mossad agents hijacked the planes; but being Zionists, naturally they're gutless, so they must have escaped from the planes before they crashed. Very sharp of you to deduce that. So your answer is this: the average person could not escape from the small hatch on the plane, but Zionists probably could, because they're...well...slippery. There ya go. Mystery solved. Referencing my post in this thread... what do I win?? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites A-Train 0 #66 February 13, 2007 The following is taken from Warrior Soul: Memoir of a Navy Seal, by Chuck Pfarrer, Random House, page 5. QuoteJumping out of commercial airliners is an operation, or op, we call a "D. B. Cooper." Using scheduled air traffic to insert into a hostile country, or a denied area, is a SEAL specialty. Most people do not parachute on purpose from jet aircraft. The planes are too fast, and the turbulent air dragging in their wake can snap your spine and pop your hips from your pelvis. We were trained to jump from commercial airliners because they are ubiquitous and nonattributable. It is one thing to prohibit American military aircraft from flying over your country. It is quite another to close down your airspace to all commercial traffic. Libya, Syria, Cuba, and a host of other thug nations allow commercial flights to fly through their airspace. This is all the opening a SEAL Team needs. Unknown and unseen, a SEAL element can parachute into any place on earth. One might insert: that is, provided one survives the jump. The trick is to exit in correct body position and deploy your parachute after the appropriate delay. There are two principal types of SEAL parachute operations: HALO, or high altitude, low opening; and HAHO, high altitude, high opening. In a HALO drop, you exit the aircraft at 35,000 feet on oxygen and open your parachute low, at 2,000 feet, to avoid detection. A jumper falling at terminal velocity, roughly 120 miles an hour, would scream in for a full three minutes before opening his parachute. In a HAHO drop, jumpers exit the aircraft above 35,000 feet, but their parachutes are deployed after a brief delay, maybe three seconds, opening high instead of low-sometimes literally in the jet stream. The team floats under canopy at 33,000 feet, then groups together and glides in formation toward the target. At six and a half miles up, the MT-1-X parachute has a thirty-knot forward airspeed, and you can cover a lot of miles before you ever see any dirt. Depending on the winds aloft, a jumper can touch down twenty or thirty miles from where he exited the aircraft. It's a good way to drop into a place where you are neither expected nor welcome. He opens his book by telling an anecdote about his last jump, from a 727. Boarding the plane, he notes: QuoteAs the flight attendants closed the doors and made ready for departure, I found my seat and managed to push my duffel into the overhead rack. I had definitely exceeded the recommended dimensions for carry-on luggage. Concealed in my bag was an MT-1-X military parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #67 February 13, 2007 There are websites devoted to all types of conspiracy theories, but I am sure you already are registered on them. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 93 #68 February 13, 2007 Does he assert that the mission done jumping out of a 727 was done without the crew's prior knowledge? The crew would have to help you execute a covert mission, right? I do not believe that such a rig would fit into the overhead bin of a 727. Anyway, it is not relevant to your quest. A 727 is EASY to jump out of. Very different than a 767/757.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,380 #69 February 13, 2007 >I do not believe that such a rig would fit into the overhead bin of a 727. Eh, you could fit an MT1XS into a bin with a lot of squeezing. It's a bit smaller than a typical tandem rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #70 February 13, 2007 The fact is you're allowed to stroll onto the aircraft with a jumpable sport rig now. I've done it most travelling skydivers have too. Getting away alive doesn't seem to be much of an issue for the current threat we're most concerned about. Once you're in the cockpit the "system" has failed is a serious way. Having SEAL teams brainstorm a problem is a lot different from airlines or government hollow men doing something about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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brettski74 0 #54 February 1, 2007 QuoteAs for A-train, I'd like to know more specifics about your scenario.. are these "trained professionals" hijackers? Should they be able to escape without being noticed? Can they kill someone to achieve their goal? That's getting way too serious. Why can't it just be some bored millionaire that wants to do it for shits and giggles - someone like Richard Branson. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-Train 0 #55 February 1, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteNote I am not asking if this jump would be fun or advisable, only if it would be possible for trained professionals. The same "trained professionals", that would perform this task, have been hired as security advisors to prevent this from occurring. Overall, if someone on this forum could explain how to do it, the same scenario has been considered by the airline industry in order to prevent it. As for A-train, I'd like to know more specifics about your scenario.. are these "trained professionals" hijackers? Should they be able to escape without being noticed? Can they kill someone to achieve their goal? Some info here would be nice Yes, the commandos would be hijackers. They would have been able to rehearse the maneuver many times previously on the exact same type of plane. They would want to escape the plane without being noticed by the passengers, who would, however, all have been sent to the back of the plane. Yes, they would be willing to kill people, specifically the pilots. If you would like more details about this scenario, feel free to e-mail me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #56 February 1, 2007 >Overall, if someone on this forum could explain how to do it, >the same scenario has been considered by the airline industry in >order to prevent it. I think perhaps you might be overestimating the imaginations of aircraft manufacturers. They sometimes have trouble anticipating even things like oxygen-generator fires or rapid rudder excursions; anticipating clever things someone like Scott Smith could think up is asking a little much. While I was working on an MD-80 demo I noted that it would be pretty easy to get out of the plane via the cockpit door to the e-bay to the external e-bay hatch. The maintenance people I was working with were all pretty adamant that this was not possible - you could not open the door in flight due to the pressure difference, and if you tried to exit at 200mph you'd be killed instantly by the cold, pressure and impact of the air on your body. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #57 February 1, 2007 QuoteI think perhaps you might be overestimating the imaginations of aircraft manufacturers. I would say that any speculation on airline security by me, or anyone on this forum, is just that - speculation. Since 9-11, it is reasonable to assume that things have taken a very large leap forward in seriousness. (Even if they can't keep people out of the wheel wells.) Years ago (I cannot find a link), a SEAL team was tasked with determining if a hijacker could leave an airliner in flight. Those were the "trained professionals" that I referenced earlier. So, efforts in this area were taken back in a more casual era. DB Cooper proved that it could be done. That exit has been eliminated. I think that the OP is giving this a lot of thought. I think that the airline industry has given it a lot more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #58 February 1, 2007 If, the scenario is about hijackers escaping; it's simply a waste of time since hijackers have already demonstrated willingness to continue to fly the plane to crash it. Them departing the plane simply means the hostages have a better chance to foil the plot. If the scenario is about a "hero" escaping -- it doesn't matter.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #59 February 1, 2007 QuoteIf, the scenario is about hijackers escaping; it's simply a waste of time since hijackers have already demonstrated willingness to continue to fly the plane to crash it. Them departing the plane simply means the hostages have a better chance to foil the plot. If the scenario is about a "hero" escaping -- it doesn't matter. The whole thread is about making an escape from a flying airliner. The willingness to die thing is not new. During the Black September days (before Arafat became the kinder, gentler politician ), there were two failed attempts to crash a jet into Tel Aviv by killing the pilots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-Train 0 #60 February 1, 2007 QuoteIf, the scenario is about hijackers escaping; it's simply a waste of time since hijackers have already demonstrated willingness to continue to fly the plane to crash it. Them departing the plane simply means the hostages have a better chance to foil the plot. But what if the hijackers weren't who we think they are? What if they're someone else who doesn't want to die? However, I'd like this thread to stick just to the theoretical possibility of parachuting out of a 757/767. I've posted a more "political" treatment of this issue on the Speakers section of the Forum. Those who want to delve into a more fleshed-out description of the scenario I'm talking about can go there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #61 February 2, 2007 From your thread in SC ("Were the 9/11 hijackers Israeli agents, disguised as Arabs?"), it's apparent you're asking this because you think Zionist Israeli Mossad agents hijacked the planes; but being Zionists, naturally they're gutless, so they must have escaped from the planes before they crashed. Very sharp of you to deduce that. So your answer is this: the average person could not escape from the small hatch on the plane, but Zionists probably could, because they're...well...slippery. There ya go. Mystery solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #62 February 2, 2007 QuoteSo your answer is this: the average person could not escape from the small hatch on the plane, but Zionists probably could, because they're...well...slippery. There ya go. Mystery solved. Quite right. The answer is yes, it is easy to do it. Now there is no reason for A-train to visit this site.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #63 February 2, 2007 QuoteThese were done with lines and mirrors. I remember those days. They were done with lines on mirrors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zing 2 #64 February 2, 2007 I'm sure I have absoltively, posulutely no idea what you're referencing there ... I was busy jumping or flying the airplanes, although there used to be some sort of ritual in the cockpit that involved higher altitudes. Nowadays, jumpers seem to expect more tudes for the mere sight of a pair of tits ... but my memories could be faulty.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #65 February 2, 2007 QuoteFrom your thread in SC ("Were the 9/11 hijackers Israeli agents, disguised as Arabs?"), it's apparent you're asking this because you think Zionist Israeli Mossad agents hijacked the planes; but being Zionists, naturally they're gutless, so they must have escaped from the planes before they crashed. Very sharp of you to deduce that. So your answer is this: the average person could not escape from the small hatch on the plane, but Zionists probably could, because they're...well...slippery. There ya go. Mystery solved. Referencing my post in this thread... what do I win?? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-Train 0 #66 February 13, 2007 The following is taken from Warrior Soul: Memoir of a Navy Seal, by Chuck Pfarrer, Random House, page 5. QuoteJumping out of commercial airliners is an operation, or op, we call a "D. B. Cooper." Using scheduled air traffic to insert into a hostile country, or a denied area, is a SEAL specialty. Most people do not parachute on purpose from jet aircraft. The planes are too fast, and the turbulent air dragging in their wake can snap your spine and pop your hips from your pelvis. We were trained to jump from commercial airliners because they are ubiquitous and nonattributable. It is one thing to prohibit American military aircraft from flying over your country. It is quite another to close down your airspace to all commercial traffic. Libya, Syria, Cuba, and a host of other thug nations allow commercial flights to fly through their airspace. This is all the opening a SEAL Team needs. Unknown and unseen, a SEAL element can parachute into any place on earth. One might insert: that is, provided one survives the jump. The trick is to exit in correct body position and deploy your parachute after the appropriate delay. There are two principal types of SEAL parachute operations: HALO, or high altitude, low opening; and HAHO, high altitude, high opening. In a HALO drop, you exit the aircraft at 35,000 feet on oxygen and open your parachute low, at 2,000 feet, to avoid detection. A jumper falling at terminal velocity, roughly 120 miles an hour, would scream in for a full three minutes before opening his parachute. In a HAHO drop, jumpers exit the aircraft above 35,000 feet, but their parachutes are deployed after a brief delay, maybe three seconds, opening high instead of low-sometimes literally in the jet stream. The team floats under canopy at 33,000 feet, then groups together and glides in formation toward the target. At six and a half miles up, the MT-1-X parachute has a thirty-knot forward airspeed, and you can cover a lot of miles before you ever see any dirt. Depending on the winds aloft, a jumper can touch down twenty or thirty miles from where he exited the aircraft. It's a good way to drop into a place where you are neither expected nor welcome. He opens his book by telling an anecdote about his last jump, from a 727. Boarding the plane, he notes: QuoteAs the flight attendants closed the doors and made ready for departure, I found my seat and managed to push my duffel into the overhead rack. I had definitely exceeded the recommended dimensions for carry-on luggage. Concealed in my bag was an MT-1-X military parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #67 February 13, 2007 There are websites devoted to all types of conspiracy theories, but I am sure you already are registered on them. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #68 February 13, 2007 Does he assert that the mission done jumping out of a 727 was done without the crew's prior knowledge? The crew would have to help you execute a covert mission, right? I do not believe that such a rig would fit into the overhead bin of a 727. Anyway, it is not relevant to your quest. A 727 is EASY to jump out of. Very different than a 767/757.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #69 February 13, 2007 >I do not believe that such a rig would fit into the overhead bin of a 727. Eh, you could fit an MT1XS into a bin with a lot of squeezing. It's a bit smaller than a typical tandem rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #70 February 13, 2007 The fact is you're allowed to stroll onto the aircraft with a jumpable sport rig now. I've done it most travelling skydivers have too. Getting away alive doesn't seem to be much of an issue for the current threat we're most concerned about. Once you're in the cockpit the "system" has failed is a serious way. Having SEAL teams brainstorm a problem is a lot different from airlines or government hollow men doing something about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
