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pchapman

Pranks on jumps - what is acceptable nowadays?

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An interesting issue came up in a bonfire post, where a guy dumped his buddy out as a prank at 10,000'. The buddy is mad and won't talk to the dump-er any more.

Certain safety issues were taken care of: the prank was arranged with the pilot and other jumpers so that jumpers wouldn't think there was an emergency, and that there would be no ATC issues or other planes dropping soon after. That's important these days.

(The thread is http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view&post=4565248)

The guy got a lot of negative reaction for his prank. But when I consider skydiving history, I would have thought it would be regarded as a real hoot, a good prank on a buddy, even if not something I'm really inclined to do (Given that pilots & jumpers were informed.)

One negative reaction was that it wasn't as much about safety, but a matter of trust, that the prankster could never be trusted again. One does want to trust buddies to do any prank safely, and pranking too often can wear thin and waste lot of jump money. Better than just to do silly stuff that everyone on the jump is in on.

What is acceptable nowadays for pranking people? Are people less tolerant of screwing around, or is it just that some specific dangers are increased in modern jumping and need to be taken into consideration?

Is the cost of each jump considered so high that screwing up a jump deliberately is an offense? Certainly one doesn't go screw up a 20 way just on a whim, but if some friends get together to prank a common friend, that should be more acceptable.

Is it the case that nowadays "any deviation from standard procedures is an increase in risk to jumpers and a liability to the dropzone and therefore not to be tolerated in the modern skydiving world?"

Or do people just need to suck it up and not be such wusses?

I'm not big on freefall pranks but have done a couple minor ones. I guess I'd call it a 'stunt' to do something where everyone involved knows the plan (e.g., Mr Bill, hanging upside down under canopy, etc), and a 'prank' if a person isn't informed of what will happen.

Let's look at a few pranks:

-- Taking the keys to the Cessna as you leave, or shutting of the fuel

Ok, leave that one for History and Trivia. I doubt people will risk the plane like that nowadays.

-- Giving someone a really bad spot and see if they notice and jump anyway

Those stories have been around often enough. Acceptable today? Probably, but as with many things, there are caveats so that one wouldn't do it indiscriminately.

Clearly it works better for DZ's with good 'outs', and one wouldn't spot someone a mile into subdivisions, swamp, or freezing cold lake. And one wouldn't do it if neighbour relations are really touchy.

Easier to do with a C-182, but it has been done for the first group out of an Otter.

-- Letting someone jump on "go!" with others not leaving

That's an old one. Do the count, buddy leaves on "go!", but everyone else stays on the plane. Maybe a little cruel if someone is planning a cool jump and then gets left with a solo freefall. Heard of it done very occasionally. At least compared to dumping at 10 grand, the spot should be good and thus is a safer prank, with less need for pilot coordination. Pranks that don't waste the whole jump for someone are nicer.

-- Dumping someone out in freefall

That seems to have been a common enough trick. Seen it done in the last few years. I'm used to the idea of it being done shortly before breakoff, so the sucker should get back to the DZ, rather than being done at 10,000+ ft. Is the latter OK too?

At one time in the old days, everyone had similar, reliable F-111 parachutes. These days one might consider not dumping out jumpers with really small parachutes, even if one made sure they were nicely belly to earth when dumped. You don't want a jumper angry because he spun up, chopped, and lost his stuff, blaming it not on his own packing but on being shoulder low when he got dumped by someone else.

[Edit to add:] Another topic brought up is that poor body position can lead to hard openings and injury. So then is it still acceptable to dump someone out, but only if reasonable precautions are taken to ensure that they are belly to earth? But sometimes things go wrong despite precautions -- and now perhaps the liability for injury goes to the dumper, rather than the jumper who normally accepts the risk.

Dumping out also brings up the issue:

Is off-landing considered to be "dangerous" these days, or "something every jumper should be able to hack"? One hears of the fatalities, people talk about how to off-land in canopy courses, etc. On the other hand, isn't the average jumper expected to be be able to manage landing in slightly worse terrain? Otherwise they made a mistake in choosing the parachute they did, and have accepted extra risks. Off-landings are an occasional feature of skydiving and not an emergency?

-- Tackling someone in freefall

That's an old one. Been on jumps like that, where the guy doing his 500th or whatever gets tackled by whomever can catch him, late in the belly dive. Used to be done long ago even when pin protection was worse, I think. Best not to do it too low. Sucking a good buddy a little low may be a hoot if both are into that sort of thing, but you don't want too much a mess of people at different levels going below normal breakoff. So one does have to consider how many people there are, and the altitude involved. Some breakoff altitudes are conservative, some less so.

Instead of just plain tackling someone, there are variations in how to flip someone:

Such as doing a 2 way star with the victim, swinging ones legs down and back up around the torso of the victim, letting go with hands, arching hard, hopefully flipping everyone 180 degrees, and end up riding rodeo on the victim who is back to earth. I've done it myself and seen it done, with novice jumpers. Not with someone who doesn't have freefall stability and breakoff procedures down pat, but still done with a relative novice and not just an experienced jumper.


Comments are welcome on what sort of pranks are considered acceptable or not these days, especially because opinions and practices at different DZ's may vary.

In any case, there are some interesting issues involved, regarding safety and norms in the skydiving community.

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I got dumped for my 1000th jump.
Was a 4way FS training jump. I had asked my teammates if we could do a fun track jump or something for that jump, they said "NO WAY, today is training day, so we train", we get out of the plane, and I can swear it was the best start we had on a jump. After 5 points, the Inside center takes a wrong grip on my leg, I try to shake him off, then see the video man on level with the team, have a look at the IC, and see him with my pilot chute in the hand :D:D:D. I knew the jump was over for me. I laughed soooo much all my canopy flight, and it gave me a great occasion to land solo so I could throw a heavy turn and land downwind :D:D:D

For me it was OK and great fun because we were a team, all with decent level, everybody knew about it and it was "safe".
Wouldn't consider it for lower time jumpers though.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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piisfish


Wouldn't consider it for lower time jumpers though.



That's it right there. The guy who posted about it in bonfire had about 100 jumps and was dumping out his buddy who'd started jumping at the same time so probably has about the same jump numbers. They don't know what they don't know. I know someone who was dumped out on a milestone jump by a then-current AFFI. That was funny... but also being done by someone who damn well better know how to safely dump someone out (and it was at the bottom end of the skydive, so eliminated the increased risk of an off landing that would come with dumping someone out at 10K).

It's hard to say there's a blanket rule for pranks, but certainly the people involved need to have significant experience to know all of the risks and assess them appropriately. The original poster's comment that he didn't tell the safety officer because he knew she'd say no indicates that more experienced hands might have said no to something a 100 jump wonder thought was perfectly reasonable.

But, when we say "only if people have the experience..." then we potentially set examples for younger jumpers that this kind of stuff is okay for them to do, too.[:/]
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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As an old fart with plenty of pranking experience...I think it's way out of line to touch someone elses rig in anyway that's unexpected.

Besides that's pretty unimaginative...:)

Instead tell the prankee they're going to be point of the wedge for a dynamic V formation - exit flying against the flight path and hold that heading in as stable of a boxman as possible until we catch ya to form the V....break off @ 4500' - pull at 3.

Spot for a cross country...everybody exits and dumps high except the maggot.

Teaches check the spot if nothing else! ;)











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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airtwardo



Teaches check the spot if nothing else! ;)



Hah, reminds me of a certain "bandit brewery jump" at Lost Prairie a few years ago with a longtime organizer. Load was spotted for the brewery instead of the dropzone... LO didn't notice. :D:D
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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airtwardo

As an old fart with plenty of pranking experience...I think it's way out of line to touch someone elses rig in anyway that's unexpected. ;)



Soooo... Hooking someones main up backwards is no longer considered funny? Later... I gotta go stop someone from getting on that airplane.... :P
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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skyjumpenfool

***As an old fart with plenty of pranking experience...I think it's way out of line to touch someone elses rig in anyway that's unexpected. ;)



Soooo... Hooking someones main up backwards is no longer considered funny? Later... I gotta go stop someone from getting on that airplane.... :P

On rounds it was funny...but 1/2 these people can't land right with it on straight THESE days!~ :ph34r:










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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The guy got a lot of negative reaction for his prank. But when I consider skydiving history, I would have thought it would be regarded as a real hoot, a good prank on a buddy, even if not something I'm really inclined to do (Given that pilots & jumpers were informed.)


A month or two ago, I think at the farm, on a jumper's 500th jump, one friend decided to fruit-loop her just as another friend decided to prematurely deploy her. (I believe the story was that the fruit-looping friend had no idea that the other intended to prematurely deploy.) Heart contusion, bruised sternum, spinal injury. Not so funny after all.

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i had a fun prank on a wingsuit jump a couple weeks ago.
we were just doing some vertical stacking in close proximity, i told everyone on the load (2 others) i was going to have some fun with the base,
so we all get out and get flying, i flew up to the base that was backflying and got above him,
then dropped down and grabbed ahold of his harness and started dryhumping him mid flight, we both started laughing our asses off in freefall and he started humping back. it really was some funny ass shit.
when we landed, everyone on the jump was almost crying because we were laughing soo hard!!
i think its good to have fun every once in a while as long as you do it safely and up high.
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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Once for a friend's 100th we had him climb out of the 182 first. We told him he had to get waaaay out there to give us room. When he was out there we climbed back in a closed the door leaving him out there alone watching the airport get further and further away till he finally left alone.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I don't want anyone messing with me (phyically) during the jump. Lie to me, fly one way and leave me by myself with a different plan, or whatever to alter the dive flow. But don't mess with me.

Maybe I am a stick in the mud.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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An interesting issue came up in a bonfire post, where a guy dumped his buddy out as a prank at 10,000'. The buddy is mad and won't talk to the dump-er any more.



You have to know your audience.

You have to know the limits.

I am not a big fan of practical jokes... I find them a bit childish. Then again acting like a child every once in a while can be fun.

An example. Airpseed had this little trick they would play on each other about putting stickers on a teammates visor. It started on the ground, but escalated from there to on the plane and actually doing it on exit. Now, I find this funny as hell. They found it funny as hell. But I would not suggest people do this to someone who is not uber experienced and that has a great sense of humor.

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What is acceptable nowadays for pranking people?



Know your audience, know the limits.

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Are people less tolerant of screwing around



Less tolerant. Dumping people out used to be done on many "big" jumps. For your 1,000th you pretty much knew it was coming. I was dumped out for my 100th, 500th and they tried to dump me out for my 2,000th, but I dumped out the camera gun.... Yeah, that just happened.

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-- Taking the keys to the Cessna as you leave, or shutting of the fuel



BAD idea, and I'd kick you off the DZ. We are talking 40K plus dollars and a guys ticket. I had a buddy that died because of an accidental shutting off of the fuel and he handled it badly.

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-- Giving someone a really bad spot and see if they notice and jump anyway



Funny as long as they are competant to land off safely and the area you give them is fine. If you are not 100% sure, then don't.

Know their limitations.

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-- Letting someone jump on "go!" with others not leaving



Love it. Hilarious as hell. If the person is the type to get butt hurt about it, don't.... We did this to a guy on his 500th jump. And then he thought he would get us and made us do the jump again so he could swoop it.... Well, the floaters stayed on the plane and he ran right past.... Hilarious. The look on his face as I waved as he went past was awesome. In both cases we swooped down to him and did the jump. He didn't think it was funny the second time till he realized we liked him enough to mess with him.

Again, know your audience.

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-- Dumping someone out in freefall... These days one might consider not dumping out jumpers with really small parachutes, even if one made sure they were nicely belly to earth when dumped. You don't want a jumper angry because he spun up, chopped, and lost his stuff, blaming it not on his own packing but on being shoulder low when he got dumped by someone else.



Know your audience.

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Is off-landing considered to be "dangerous" these days, or "something every jumper should be able to hack"?



It is both. It SHOULD be a non-issue. Landing off should be trainied IMO. But the fact is that some people can't handle it and kill themselves every year.

Again (wanna say it with me?) KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE.

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-- Tackling someone in freefall



Lots of exp with this one. Litterally killed a buddy of mine. He grabbed a low timer and flipped him, but the lowtimer grbbed his cutaway. Long story short, no AAD, RSL, or reserve pull. I still don't think it is a 'sin', but I know lots of folks that think it is death on a stick.

KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. If you did this to me once or twice with enough altitude to be safe.... I'd find it funny. I might get you back later. But again, you had better know the guy is not going to get butt hurt about it.

The only one you listed that would really upset me is the keys or fuel of the plane.

But again, know the limits and know your audience.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Know your audience.



Even then it's sometimes not a great idea...I grabbed and spun the heck out of my buddy Walt Appel following an 8 way once - 'dragged' him all the way down to 2500' - his eyes were pretty big for for a B.A.S.E. jumper. :$










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Tackling someone--especially someone with not a lot of experience--seems like a bad idea. As mentioned above, I'd worry they might freak out and grab my handles.

Now, I had a good prank pulled on me on my 100th jump that I thought was appropriate and not dangerous. It was a small-ish tracking jump. Right at breakoff (which was high--6000ft), another jumper swooped in and grabbed me by the ankle, proceeding to pull off my shoe and then track away before deploying. The way breakoff was designed (though I don't remember specifically now), there was room for him to get away after the theft and I was good to pull in place. Because he grabbed me at the ankle there was no concern I'd try to grab him, because I wouldn't be able to reach him. He brought my shoe down with him and gave it to me at the LZ.

It was someone I knew well, we had jumped together before and apparently he knew I could handle myself and would be heads up, which I think I was given the situation. Because it was my 100th jump, I had no problem trusting him on future jumps--I knew it was a one-time thing for that occasion, not something he'd do again whenever he felt like messing with me.

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airtwardo

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Know your audience.



Even then it's sometimes not a great idea...I grabbed and spun the heck out of my buddy Walt Appel following an 8 way once - 'dragged' him all the way down to 2500' - his eyes were pretty big for for a B.A.S.E. jumper. :$


Then I respectfully submit that you didn't know your audience. If you had drug me "down" to 2500'.... I'd have still taken a delay.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron

***

Quote

Know your audience.



Even then it's sometimes not a great idea...I grabbed and spun the heck out of my buddy Walt Appel following an 8 way once - 'dragged' him all the way down to 2500' - his eyes were pretty big for for a B.A.S.E. jumper. :$


Then I respectfully submit that you didn't know your audience. If you had drug me "down" to 2500'.... I'd have still taken a delay.


Point taken. ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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pretty much what I was thinking "know your audience" I have been dumped out on milestone jumps and done the same to others everyone else in the group were aware of the plan.

i dumped a guy out on his 500th while he was on an inflatable alligator. he wondered why everyone was leaving 500' before our planned break off including the vidiot until he looked down and saw me grabbing his hackey.

I have been tackled out the door and also watched the plane going away with everyone else still on it after apparently ignoring my count.

We played catch with a friend on his 100th. First point was a side body wound him up and "threw" him to another jumper that did the same and tossed him back.

Each time we were all laughing when we landed. Because we knew the person we were pranking would "get" the joke. And we had a plan to do it safely.
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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On what was supposed to be my 50th jump (found out later I mis-logged my 36th jump twice so it was actually my 51st) three VERY experienced jumpers and myself planned to exit in a round and go into a horny gorilla. After a really stable exit where I was middle float out of a C182 the jumper to my right who happens to be the Chief AFFI with many years of experience, broke the formation, worked his way down my side and pulled for me around 9500 AGL. I was initially being a sour puss about it but after relaxing a bit I realized how funny it actually was. Sadly, I don't feel that I could safely retaliate at my current skill level, but I do know that I felt 100% safe with his ability to correctly deploy me even though I wasn't prepared. I guess that prank pulling should be left the discretion of those experienced enough to safely do them to people who will be able to safely react to them.

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