orbitjunkie 0 #1 February 5, 2007 ok guys I have a friend who is 195 out the door with a whopping 150 jumps under his belt who is now on an icarus crossfire 129 I am no canopy guru but am concerned..what do ya'll think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 February 5, 2007 I'm no guru. Having a tendency for suicide? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 February 5, 2007 From Icaris's website: Class 4 High performance 1.25 to 1.65 Lbs/SqFt wing loading Now we're having fun ! We're also into potentially high danger area! Turn speeds are increasing air speeds and speed range are increasing dramatically all of which provides us with a direct trade off between fun and safety. Canopies in this range must be flown to the ground! Recovery arcs are generally over 200 feet and toggle input movements are getting noticeably shorter. A high degree of experience and competence is necessary to handle a canopy in this range. Flying a canopy in this range must be done by feel, every maneuver must be well planned ahead as things are happening very quickly. With a high wing loading turbulence will affect the canopy less but if affected remember you are traveling much faster. Being dropped 1/2 a meter by turbulence under a class 2 canopy isn't even going to affect your stand up landing but being dropped 1/2 a meter in the middle of your ballistic turf surf could ruin your summer. The same goes for other obstacles - buildings, fences, people, other canopies, etc, have much more impact at high speeds. Even uneven ground or short landing areas should be considered obstacles. These canopies will still be traveling horizontally in nil wind conditions. A collapsible pilot chute is recommended. Lowering the slider and loosening ones chest strap is suggested. Statements like those in bold (my highlights) really piss me off as they imply to the youngsters that if you're not flying a pocket rocket, you not having fun and you have to sacrifice safety to have fun. Freakin' idiots - both the manufacturers and the bozos who let themselves be taken in by the marketing crap.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #4 February 5, 2007 I think a game of 'Bingo' is on the cards at your dz. seriously, if the guy completley ignores the reccommendations and knowledge of the Icarus boyz, i say fuck him! 150 jumps on a crossfire 2, first of all the dz sounds like a dangerous place if they let this go on and the guy jumping the canopy has no respect for the sport, the manufacturers, experienced jumpers or the people who went in before him, so yeah, fuck him. start Bingo on him. I got $20 he breaks his fema in the next 50 jumps cause of a late turn. I know a very experienced pilot who i have heard just go in with a HP canopy and now i hear a guy with 150 jumps jumping a advanced canopy when he is only a novice jumper himself,.... no fucking respect for people that ignore everything this sport and the demo jumpers for the manufacturers we have. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 February 5, 2007 Quote150 jumps on a crossfire 2 Why do you assume that canopy is a CF2? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_ru 0 #6 February 5, 2007 Did you ever see him land? If he does it easily and with no mistakes and has his instructor's permission to fly that canopy, I can't see any trouble here. It may be a bit of a rush though from my perspective, as he may have not enough experience for Crossfire, but it depends on his skills, and in lesser degree on the quantity of jumps. At my home DZ it is prohibited to jump Crossfire unless you have 500 jumps or have 300 jumps and passed a special training. Still some people have a talent for flying canopies, so they advance faster than others. You should ask his instructor or the flight director what they think about it. Then you'll get a better judgement than any of those posted here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #7 February 5, 2007 QuoteQuote150 jumps on a crossfire 2 Why do you assume that canopy is a CF2? I thought that was what i read. I see i am mistaken but still stand by my comments. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 February 5, 2007 QuoteYou should ask his instructor or the flight director what they think about it. Then you'll get a better judgement than any of those posted here. There should be a reason why people with low experience even like you do not fly highly loaded elliptical canopies in most of the countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #9 February 5, 2007 AFAIK it has something to do with sizing, but it does not make it different in that case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #10 February 5, 2007 Did you ever see him land? If he does it easily and with no mistakes and has his instructor's permission to fly that canopy, I can't see any trouble here. LOL If he has permission from an instructor to fly this canopy the instructor should have his ratings ripped. what a joke. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #11 February 5, 2007 I sell canopies and I know that Icarus would not be impressed with any dealer selling a crossfire to a jumper on 150 jumps. I imagine he did not buy this from a dealer, but any skydiver selling this size and this type of canopy to a person with 150 jumps it is not a friend to the person who bought the canopy. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #12 February 5, 2007 QuoteAFAIK it has something to do with sizing, but it does not make it different in that case. I think you will find a crossfire 129 being the size of a pd 135. still, unless the person is as light as a feather on 150 jumps they should not be on anything below a 150 in my opinion. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #13 February 5, 2007 QuoteAFAIK it has something to do with sizing, but it does not make it different in that case. No, only safire 1 and omega have the sizing issue. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #14 February 5, 2007 Quotestill, unless the person is as light as a feather on 150 jumps they should not be on anything below a 150 in my opinion. I've seen different kind of "sizing" problems with light persons. I don't think that anyone should have any business under an elliptical with WL 1.6. Even a square can be funny around WL 1.3, because harness turns. He has the rest of his life to try and fly canopies, but if something happens.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #15 February 5, 2007 Ok. He still has a license to kill.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #16 February 5, 2007 QuoteQuotestill, unless the person is as light as a feather on 150 jumps they should not be on anything below a 150 in my opinion. I've seen different kind of "sizing" problems with light persons. I don't think that anyone should have any business under an elliptical with WL 1.6. Even a square can be funny around WL 1.3, because harness turns. He has the rest of his life to try and fly canopies, but if something happens.... agreed .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #17 February 5, 2007 QuoteOk. He still has a license to kill.... Apperantly ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #18 February 5, 2007 QuoteDid you ever see him land? If he does it easily and with no mistakes and has his instructor's permission to fly that canopy, I can't see any trouble here. It may be a bit of a rush though from my perspective, as he may have not enough experience for Crossfire, but it depends on his skills, and in lesser degree on the quantity of jumps. Again, I'm no canopy-piloting guru but common sense tells me... IMHO, it's not so much ability to land the thing. Tame, straight-in landings don't teach you much other than flaring. Hell, even I could land the thing on a tame, straight-in approach with no surprises. It's what you do when a situation happens that you have to rapidly maneuver that provides the experience that will enable you to avoid hurting yourself. These things are best learned under lighter wing loadings where response to input is more easily managed. As you become more familiar with correct responses to hazardous situations, and have actually experienced them, then downsizing and becoming familiar with the response-time-altitude element of your smaller canopy of choice will be easier to handle. Food for thought and discussion.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #19 February 5, 2007 Quoteok guys I have a friend who is 195 out the door with a whopping 150 jumps under his belt who is now on an icarus crossfire 129 I am no canopy guru but am concerned..what do ya'll think? I watched someone die in that exact same situation. is that enough for ya? I have also seen someone brake their spine, in a situation very similar. except the canopy was a 139. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #20 February 6, 2007 QuoteDid you ever see him land? If he does it easily and with no mistakes... That's all fine and good, but what happens when he makes his first mistake and it's under a Crossfire at 1.5 lb/sqft? Oh look, a new thread in the incident forums... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iambeav2 0 #21 February 6, 2007 Oh gee, can't wait for another incident report (please note heavily drenched sarcasm)...it's not the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone...it's the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until someone appreciates it for you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pulse 0 #22 February 6, 2007 QuoteDid you ever see him land? If he does it easily and with no mistakes and has his instructor's permission to fly that canopy, I can't see any trouble here. It may be a bit of a rush though from my perspective, as he may have not enough experience for Crossfire, but it depends on his skills, and in lesser degree on the quantity of jumps. At my home DZ it is prohibited to jump Crossfire unless you have 500 jumps or have 300 jumps and passed a special training. Still some people have a talent for flying canopies, so they advance faster than others. You should ask his instructor or the flight director what they think about it. Then you'll get a better judgement than any of those posted here. You can only experience so much within 150 jumps. Who cares if he can land well, that's not the point. What about when things go bad? In my experience, just because someone is an instructor doesn't mean they have the best advice. It's not smart....that's all I can say. I'm not a guru, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 February 6, 2007 That avatar makes me pucker....My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #24 February 6, 2007 Oooo...Ooooo...show your friend Pulse's avatar and make note of the "4000 jumps"...then ask your friend if he's going to be landing on water or ground. I hope it makes HIM pucker up, too. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flycurt 0 #25 February 6, 2007 Every now and then, one of these invincible guys comes along and for some reason they get it into their head that they can handle a high performance canopy. And make no mistake a Crossfire loaded above 1.5 is high performance. You and others will warn him about the mistake he is making and he will have many excuses, I mean reasons why it's okay for him to be on such a wing so early in his soon to be short skydiving career. Truth is he is really showing his inexperience by taking a ride on such a canopy at that w/l-ing considering his experience. Also, he may ultimately do just fine and never have a problem, chances are slim but it's possible. But once you have expressed your concern to him, if he doesn't listen and continues to go about his own program, then you should have a clear conscience. The problem comes in when he begins to recommend to others, who will come later, that going to a higher performance canopy is no big deal and that he did it without any problems. Now if that person he advises gets hurt or worse, this is where his poor judgment comes full circle. The best way to deal with people like this is to advise and see what happens. If they continue on their own unsafe path, you can bet that there will be other areas they will take the same attitude in like doing whatever he feels like when in the air or under canopy. What I've seen happen in the past, is the offending jumper was basically approached by all the experienced jumpers at the DZ and when they continued to go about their own program, they were effectively isolated. No one jumped with him, except a couple other who had the same attitude. Using peer pressure is about the only 'tool' you will have to persuade them. But sooner or later, they will get themselves into a situation that their experience can't handle and they will have a life changing experience. Just as our 'guy' did, now he walks with a cane after 3+ years of therapy and will never live without pain again. By the way he doctored a log book to get a canopy he knew he wouldn't be allowed to demo after a gear dealer refused to sell him the canopy he wanted. Ask your friend: - Why is he in such a hurry? - What guidelines he considered to make such a choice? - What was his canopy progression? - Has he followed all the recommendations in the SIM for canopy progression and training? Other than that, there really isn't anything you can do. I'll be looking for his incident report soon enough. Good Luck BSBD! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
