If you have a total malfunction, would you:

[thelem 0]

In the thread "Should you wait between cut-away and reserve?" (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1275289;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread) there has been some discussion about reserve procedures after a total mal (ie absolutly nothing deployed, for example if you couldn't find your main handle).

So far the arguments for cutting away seem to be:
* Simplier to have only one reserve procedure
* If the main does come out, it is better for it to already be cut away.

And the arguments for going straight for your reserve:
* Saves time by not cutting away

So, what would you do and why?

[chutem 0]

I think I would pull the pillow then the handle because I touch all three in order as an emergency practice drill. I'm pretty sure it would happen from muscle memory.

James

[mattjw916 2]

it depends...

probably just go to reserve...

I was taught to chop a total then go to reserve but opinions vary on this based on discussions I have had.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

In a total, you have either not found your deployment device, or not been able to pull your deployment device once you did find it. In either case I am going straight for my reserve on my sport rigs. If you have successfully gotten your PC out of it's BOC (or pulled your pud), then it's a partial malfunction and then you would perform your standard cutaway.

[wmw999 2,121]

Yep, been there, done that. Your procedure is already different, because you didn't pull, so it's automatic to already be thinking.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AMax 0]

Being open to expert advice and continuous learning are the keys for survival in this sport. Three different people with instructor ratings and 4000+ jumps tell you to go straight for reserve. May be you should listen to their advice and stop seeking for the answers by creating polls like this.

[Nightingale 0]

if I've actually pulled anything (pilot chute out), I'm chopping first. If I couldn't pull or find the main hackey, I'll go straight to silver. Its what we learned at safety day.

[thelem 0]

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Three different people with instructor ratings and 4000+ jumps tell you to go straight for reserve.

But I have spoken to other instructors at my dropzone who have conflicting advice, so who am I to believe? I chose to seek more opinions.

Judging by the responses it is not totally clear cut (although reserve only seems to be a bit more popular).

[mattjw916 2]

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But I have spoken to other instructors at my dropzone who have conflicting advice, so who am I to believe? I chose to seek more opinions.

Judging by the responses it is not totally clear cut (although reserve only seems to be a bit more popular).

I agree, my instructor for ground school, who has a lower D license number and more time in sport than anyone who replied in this thread, said red then silver for a total... it is also left up to the jumper to decide since both have drawbacks as evidenced in the SIM here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/section5.htm#51e

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[wmw999 2,121]

Does he still say that? Do you have an SOS system? I might be tempted to tell a first-jumper to have one and only one emergency procedure, and an SOS definitely makes it a no-brainer, because there is only one handle.

But a lot more people have gone in from not pulling their reserve than from pulling it. What if you have a problem locating your 3-ring handle and have to deal with that -- then there's more thinking, and more time elapsed.

Look at SM1's post, and consider what he says. You're already outside of what you practiced. You're already having to think, because you've already determined that you couldn't get the main container open.

In the days of pins and cones, you could have a delayed pack opening; a pilot chute hesitation could be indistinguishable from a cone lock. But if you can't open your rig, what purpose does cutting away serve?

I'll continue to disagree with your instructor (woohoo, there's someone out there who's actually older than I am).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mattjw916 2]

Like I said... that was what I was taught... student rigs were mainly RI Telesis IIs w/RSL not SOS.

I was just trying to illustrate the fact that at some places people are taught different ways.

If I had a total I will probably go to reserve immediately since I don't really see the benefit of chopping something that is basically stuck where it is already.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I agree, my instructor for ground school, who has a lower D license number and more time in sport than anyone who replied in this thread, said red then silver for a total... it is also left up to the jumper to decide since both have drawbacks as evidenced in the SIM here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/section5.htm#51e

If you read my earlier posts carefully, you'd see the sim agrees with me. Total= pull reserve, Pilot chute in tow= two schools of thought.
If you want to discuss total malfunctions, fine. If you want to discuss pilot chutes in tow, that's a whole new debate. By the way, I'm with the "just pull reserve" school on that one, too.

[mattjw916 2]

I'm not even going to start the PC-in-tow debate...

Sounds like everyone is basically in agreement here anyway. I was just trying to relate something I was taught that even I, with my minimal experience, don't necessarily agree with (e.g. chopping something like a total due to stuck BOC handle).

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Luna 0]

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I agree, my instructor for ground school, who has a lower D license number and more time in sport than anyone who replied in this thread, said red then silver for a total... it is also left up to the jumper to decide since both have drawbacks as evidenced in the SIM here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/section5.htm#51e

If you read that section of the SIM that you referenced, specifically 5-1.E.Total Malfunction.2.(a), it says that for a total, which is what we are talking about in this thread, you should pull reserve. It doesn't say that there are pros and cons, or two schools of thought, it says simply, "pull reserve."

I just quoted this section of the SIM to my husband who had a total over the weekend and pulled both. He has an RSL, so effectively he didn't lose much time, but I made sure that he understood why he probably should not have cutaway first, and he has said that upon reflecting on it a lot, he would go straight to silver next time.

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[AMax 0]

Quote

But I have spoken to other instructors at my dropzone who have conflicting advice, so who am I to believe? I chose to seek more opinions.

Judging by the responses it is not totally clear cut (although reserve only seems to be a bit more popular)

Yeah, I see that you are getting some conflicting advice in this forum too. In fact, two people posted that they would cut away first. I suggest you look closer at their profiles ....

[kelpdiver 2]

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I just quoted this section of the SIM to my husband who had a total over the weekend and pulled both. He has an RSL, so effectively he didn't lose much time, but I made sure that he understood why he probably should not have cutaway first, and he has said that upon reflecting on it a lot, he would go straight to silver next time.

The RSL doesn't save any time if the main isn't out of the container. But I always thought the point of initially teaching the single method of cutaway then reserve was to speed reaction time so you're not still mulling the options come Cypress time.

If you get a hard pull because you misrouted the bridle, is the main likely to come out and inflate when the reserve activates? Is this a case for silver, then cutaway, if we are going to think about it and not use a single method?

Is that the most likely total?

[mattjw916 2]

Quote

If you read that section of the SIM that you referenced, specifically 5-1.E.Total Malfunction.2.(a), it says that for a total, which is what we are talking about in this thread, you should pull reserve. It doesn't say that there are pros and cons, or two schools of thought, it says simply, "pull reserve."

I just quoted this section of the SIM to my husband who had a total over the weekend and pulled both. He has an RSL, so effectively he didn't lose much time, but I made sure that he understood why he probably should not have cutaway first, and he has said that upon reflecting on it a lot, he would go straight to silver next time.

If you read the whole section it goes on to state the two acceptable procedures for dealing with a PC-in-tow which IS ALSO a form of a total mal (although people like to argue this point often as well)... according to the SIM a PC-in-tow is NOT a partial mal.

I personally could care less which handle anyone else chooses to pull... if you are feeling saucy why don't you go argue with "Big Al" about his teaching methods or style. Considering he authored the AFF program I am sure he will have thought of some scenarios that escape the people here, myself included.

edit: spelling

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Luna 0]

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If you read the whole section it goes on to state the two acceptable procedures for dealing with a PC-in-tow which IS ALSO a form of a total mal (although people like to argue this point often as well)... according to the SIM a PC-in-tow is NOT a partial mal.

But, it does make a distinction between PC in tow and "total malfunction" and lists two different actions for them. In other words, it gives two options for the PC in tow, but for other "total malfunction" that would not be considered a PC in tow, it simply says to pull reserve. Whatever people are most comfortable with, that's fine, but my SIM tells me that if I have my PC still in my BOC, I should not pull cutaway. Logically, this makes sense to me. As Wendy pointed out, what if I have trouble locating my cutaway? What purpose am I serving in this case by pulling the cutaway? I'm simply wasting precious seconds by performing that function, and even more so if I have a problem finding it. PC in tow, as you know, is a WHOLE other story!

I'm not trying to argue with "Big Al" or anyone else who wants to pull their cutaway first in a total...I obviously don't have the experience to! I'm just inclined to think that if it's in the SIM, there's a good reason, so I'll go with that.

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[Luna 0]

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The RSL doesn't save any time if the main isn't out of the container.

You are right. I thought that this was the case as well, but he said that his reserve was deploying before he pulled his reserve handle, but he clearly was not aware enough about what was going on.

His total was a hard pull. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who knows, but I'd think that more totals would be from hard pulls than from misrouted bridles.

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[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

But I have spoken to other instructors at my dropzone who have conflicting advice, so who am I to believe? I chose to seek more opinions.

There are conflicting methods about teaching students to deal with total and partial malfunctions. The idea about teaching 'one way for all emergencies' surfaced in the early to mid 90s. This concept is still taught today at DZs, but not at the majority of DZs. Most DZs teach 'cutaway-pull reserve' for partials and 'pull reserve' for totals.

I think the 'one way for all emergencies' is a new-age dumbing down of jumpers.

To help you decide what method you plan to use, should the opportunity present itself, consider this:

Suppose you have a total. You cannot find the handle or cannot pull the handle. You are supposed to try 2 times or 3 times (the number of times also varies across the country, and is always 2 or 3). An A licensed jumper is supposed to pull his main by 3000 ft. An A licensed jumper is supposed to decide by 2500 ft whether or not they have a good main. If you start your main pull sequence at 3000 ft, try twice or 3X (whatever your personal choice is) for the main, what altitude would you be at? Historically, jumpers forget to count how many tries they do on the main and get distracted from checking altitude. Would you want a procedure that gets your reserve out as quickly as possible or one that has you eating up valuable altitude performing an action that has no life saving consequences?
Would your answer depend on whether you ended up trying 4, 5 or more times for the main and found yourself much lower?

Years ago I saw a guy's body disappear behind the nose of the DC3 as he was getting line stretch on his round reserve. He lived. He had a main total on an ROL system. He never knew the try 3x and then reserve rule. (or maybe he forgot it) He pulled his reserve because he glanced at the ground. A cutaway-pull reserve procedure in this case would have meant a fatality. It turned out that this jumper was not really graduated off student status. He only had 18 or so jumps, but claimed around 100 on the wavier and had a bogus logbook.

I had a main total once. I had around 1000 jumps at the time. I tried exactly three times for the main and then pulled the reserve. I was open around 1500 ft. Main pull altitude was ~2000.

Quote

I just quoted this section of the SIM to my husband who had a total over the weekend and pulled both. He has an RSL, so effectively he didn't lose much time, but I made sure that he understood why he probably should not have cutaway first, and he has said that upon reflecting on it a lot, he would go straight to silver next time.

I run into a number of jumpers that do not completely understand how an RSL works. The misconception comes from thinking that 'the RSL pulls the reserve.' This is only true when the main completely separates from the jumper. In a total malfunction scenario, the main does not separate from the jumper. The RSL is non-functional.
In a horse-shoe malfunction scenario, the main may not separate completely. The main riser with the RSL may or may not extend far enough to pull the RSL. There may not be enough force is the separated riser to pull the RSL.

In a total malfunction situation the RSL does absolutely nothing to help your survival.

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if you are feeling saucy why don't you go argue with "Big Al" about his teaching methods or style. Considering he authored the AFF program…

FYI Point: Ken Coleman is credited with developing the AFF harness hold program that was adopted by USPA in Oct. 1981. Several other pockets of harness hold jumps were done in the late 70's and early 80's by jumpers in California, Casa Grande, AZ, Michigan (were Coleman jumped) and in FL. The most famous early harness hold jump was when Bob Sinclair took Johnny Carson. [Carson used to host the Tonite show.]

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I think I would pull the pillow then the handle because I touch all three in order as an emergency practice drill. I'm pretty sure it would happen from muscle memory.

Your muscle memory for touching your handles is not the muscle memory for actual pulling of handles. Muscle memory for pulling handles comes from real EPs or practicing EPs. At every repack, every jumper should simulate a main malfunction [ON THE GROUND], pull the cutaway (peel and pull down) and then pull reserve (pull down) or practice a total malfunction [ON THE GROUND] with whatever procedure you intend to use. I even had a section added to the SIM about this practice because it is very valuable in learning the proper pull techniques, pull forces and enhancing muscle memory.

To simulate a main malfunction [ON THE GROUND] I have someone stand on a table and hold my main risers up and shake me about. Then I pull the cutaway and pull the reserve. I do this at every repack. MOSparky has assisted me on several occasions.

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Make It Happen
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[dubbayab 0]

IF you have pulled the main deployment handle, and no canopy, I would cut away then deploy reserve.

If I couldn't find the main deployment handle, after two attempts I would pull the reserve deployment handle.

My reasoning, I read an artical severial years ago about some military jumps involving this (maybe Golden Knights) . They concluded that if the main deployment handle was pulled and no canopy. The chances of having a two out situation was almost 100% if the jumper went straight to silver. The deploying Reserve would usualy soften up the container system enough to allow the main to be deployed. They also concluded that a couple af hard hits to the side of the contianer with there elbows would also some time allow the main to deploy after pull and no deployment, before going to silver.

Real experiences... I once experienced what I though was a pilot chute in tow malfunction, I had very few jumps and I broke off early and deployed, the other jumper was watching and told me later on the ground he saw the same. I looked over my sholder first and it deployed, so I didn't have a chance to work my e-procedures.
II once wittnesed a friend (TI) with a two out situation on a tandem. He stated he had an uneventful drouge fall, pulled his release handle and no trap door. He pulled the other release handle and still no trap door. HE through both ripcords and pulled his reserve. ( I don't know if it is different for tandems procedures) but not cutting away saved both the student and the I. For what ever reason both canopies started to deploy, the reserve pilot chute traveled through the main risers before it released the reserve canopy, he wound up with some reserve suspension lines on his left leg and his right arm traped in the suspension lines of the reserve. the reserve had about 5 cells inflated off to his right and spinning up tightly traping his arm and putting his body position in a way he could not control the decent under the main. They landed off, both ok.., THe reserve had wraped up the freebag and had line burnes and borken suspension lines. My self and a AFF-Tandem I/E found them in the corn field, inspected the gear and that is how we found the gear. The reserve was cashed. IF the TI would have cut away before deploying the reserve and both conopies deployed at the sametime, he would have been left with no canopy over him, horseshoed to the reserve and a entanglment with the cutaway main.
FWEIW

[mattjw916 2]

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FYI Point: Ken Coleman is credited with developing the AFF harness hold program that was adopted by USPA in Oct. 1981. Several other pockets of harness hold jumps were done in the late 70's and early 80's by jumpers in California, Casa Grande, AZ, Michigan (were Coleman jumped) and in FL. The most famous early harness hold jump was when Bob Sinclair took Johnny Carson. [Carson used to host the Tonite show.]

That could probably be debated... but it is beyond th scope of this thread.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

FYI Point: Ken Coleman is credited with developing the AFF harness hold program that was adopted by USPA in Oct. 1981. Several other pockets of harness hold jumps were done in the late 70's and early 80's by jumpers in California, Casa Grande, AZ, Michigan (were Coleman jumped) and in FL. The most famous early harness hold jump was when Bob Sinclair took Johnny Carson. [Carson used to host the Tonite show.]

That could probably be debated... but it is beyond th scope of this thread.

No that can't be debated.

Some personal attacks deleted. Please debate issues, not personalities.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[speedy 0]

Quote

In a total, you have either not found your deployment device, or not been able to pull your deployment device once you did find it. In either case I am going straight for my reserve on my sport rigs. If you have successfully gotten your PC out of it's BOC (or pulled your pud), then it's a partial malfunction and then you would perform your standard cutaway.

I agree with your post almost entirely. I would just make the qualification that if I could not find my deployment device beause it was not in the spandex pouch, I would wonder why the main had not opened and cutaway before pulling reserve.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[elfanie 0]

I have had a total...a hard pull.

I went through my EPs - red then silver. I landed with my main still on my back.

My instructors (all of them, actually) who I trust explicitely (one has over 8K jumps, golden knight member for years, leap frog, 'big wig' in the skydiving world) said absolutely right...you touch it, you chop it...doesn't matter if anything is out or not.

We lost someone about a year ago with a PC in tow (I know...that's a partial, but still) that went straight silver. Watching the video...most agree that he would have been 100% fine if he'd chopped first...not chopping killed him.

My instructor explained that the only reason there is even a bit of controversy over this is because there was ONE fatality of a well known jumper who had chopped in which things got tangled up and it was questions that it might have been better in his one freaky instance not to have chopped...and thus the debate began.

I had a hard pull...tried 3 times (yup, dumb!)...chopped and pulled silver. If it happened again, I'd do the same thing.

it all seems to come down to training - follow your training.

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Elfanie
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