Are you competent?

[argyle 0]

Some recent incidents have prompted me to weigh in on downsizing and other progressions in skydiving. As a relative newcomer to the sport, my opinion will not have as much credibility as if I had 10,000 jumps/20 years, but I have been involved in a lot of other sports where there is speed and the need to do the right thing the first time. I raced motorcycles for 15 years, I mountain bike (16 years), trail ride atv's (9 years), and ski (30 years). Also, I am at an age where I like to think that I have earned the right to speak.

What is missing from the discussions about downsizing, camera use, high performance landings, etc is the realization that there are two nearly distinct processes involved. There is the skill to perform the trick, let’s say a high speed landing, and there is the background competency to handle yourself and be safe. These processes are probably almost completely separate. I’m sure there are skydivers with 2000 jumps who cannot do a stable sit, as well skydivers with 100 jumps who are getting very good at head-down. But who has more experience?

Let me say it again:
There are two parts of your performance:
1. Skill
2. Competency

You don’t get the competency necessarily from being good at the trick. This has been proven over and over again, and yet the discussion is always the same. I have only X jumps, but I’m really good, so I should be able to do Y. The problem is that you may have skill at something, but you can only be safe (competent) by getting a lot of experience. There are no shortcuts. This is why the advice to the downsizer always fails. He sees that he can handle the faster canopy, but misses the point that he has absolutely no idea how he would react when something weird happens. Incidents are many times avoidable, but never predictable.

Imagine learning how to make basketball shots from the free-throw line. You practice hours a day and get really good at it. You can make 9 out of 10 consistently, maybe with only a few days practice. You really learned fast. You’re a star. Now, imagine you are making a free throw and just as you are ready to let the ball go, someone hits you in the calf with a baseball bat. Well, who expected that? But the game is to make the shot regardless. So you go back and keep shooting and then you get hit in the shoulder by a rock. Then a dog barks in your ear. At first you drop the ball and get pissed, but pretty soon you can make the shot anyway. The skill to make the shot comes first. The ability to make the shot in all situations only comes with time.

I have not studied psychology, but in my own experience, it seems that when the unexpected happens and you have built up your experience, you are able to continue what you are doing with part of your brain, while watching the new and dangerous situation with another part of your brain. This second thought process is able to function without disturbing what you were doing. Personally, I do not have enough experience skydiving for this to happen, but I did have enough experience racing motorcycles. It is a cool thing to watch yourself break into a 2 wheel drift in a turn at 110 mph in traffic on a race track and stay cool and handle it mentally as well as physically. I am hoping to survive skydiving long enough to have that level of competency.

Anyone who reads the forums on Dropzone.com has read about some relative newcomer who thinks he can handle some canopy and wants to downsize or switch to a crossbraced to get more speed, start swooping at 300 jumps, whatever. The story is always the same. This guy can land perfectly every time, has started to do high performance landings, has been told that he's much better than he should be with his experience, etc. The advice is always the same. Don't do it, wait, you're not ready, get more training, you're not as good as you think, this stuff is dangerous. The advice is correct, but I think the point has been missed.

It could be that this guy is very, very talented. It could be that he lands perfectly, and has learned everything about his canopy that he should. Maybe he practices up high, lands in brakes, practices downwinders. Maybe he's a natural. Whatever he is, he is not Experienced. This is the key point. This has nothing to do with being able to drag a toe in a body of water. It is more about what your mind does when another canopy comes out of nowhere, or when a pickup truck appears on the landing field. There is that cold, calculating mental process that goes on in tight situations when you have the experience. This is not the process of knowing how to set up for landing or how to carve. This is competence. You can’t lecture this guy on his skills. He is good and he knows it.

This is not to say that you can’t just go for it. Regardless of advice, most people will go for it, even if they think they aren’t. Since we are in a lottery, you may survive and become experienced anyway. But how much do you want to bet on it? The stakes are high.

So what am I saying? If you want to downsize, jump a camera, or any of the other temptations, jump a lot, practice, think, and wait. Not because you’re not talented and a great skydiver, but because you don’t really know what you’re doing. You must believe that, because, really, you don’t.

In the end, I have no ideas other than to be humble. Enjoy skydiving, but respect it more. We are not shooting baskets. Remember, 1000 jumps is about 15 hours of practice. I can get that much free-throw practice in a couple of days.

Art

[DSE 3]

Experience and expertise aren't the same thing, which seems to be what you're saying.
On the flip side, one has to look at a guy like Jonathan Tagle who was in world competitions 2 years after his first skydive, jumping 866 times in his first year.
Certainly not experienced, but no one can deny his expertise...

My opinion is that it varies from person to person just like anything else. "He took to it like a fish to water" is a common phrase for a reason...some people are more apt to be accelerated learners than others.
In anything, IMO.

[argyle 0]

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Experience and expertise aren't the same thing, which seems to be what you're saying.
On the flip side, one has to look at a guy like Jonathan Tagle who was in world competitions 2 years after his first skydive, jumping 866 times in his first year.
Certainly not experienced, but no one can deny his expertise...

My opinion is that it varies from person to person just like anything else. "He took to it like a fish to water" is a common phrase for a reason...some people are more apt to be accelerated learners than others.
In anything, IMO.

Yes, everything varies from person to person. My point is that you can take to it like a fish..., but not like an old fish. In motorcycle racing, we used to say "Get smooth before you get fast." Same kind of thing, but some people were just plain fast. The ambulances were kept busy by fast guys in over their heads.

When are you experienced? In a couple of years at 1000 jumps/year, maybe you're ok. Personally, I don't think you can get competent that fast, no matter how many jumps you make. It only matters when it matters.

Art

[Ironmanjay 0]

I usually learn the hard way but being humble is the way to go
HUMBLE:
1. not proud or arrogant; modest: to be humble although successful.
2. having a feeling of insignificance, inferiority, subservience, etc.: In the presence of so many world-famous writers I felt very humble.
3. low in rank, importance, status, quality, etc.; lowly: of humble origin; a humble home.
4. courteously respectful: In my humble opinion you are wrong.
5. low in height, level, etc.; small in size: a humble member of the galaxy.
–verb (used with object) 6. to lower in condition, importance, or dignity; abase.
7. to destroy the independence, power, or will of.
8. to make meek: to humble one's heart.

[BIGUN 1,053]

Excellent article, Art.
Thank you.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Thijs 0]

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think

Many, many skydivers don't think enough.

I see people with thousands of jumps do the dumbest things you can possibly imagine...

I'm allergic to people who come here to tell "these are the rules". What happend to people thinking?

In my opinion, blindly following "the rules and regulations" in a high risk sport as skydiving is extremely dumb, and shows that you probably shouldn't jump in the first place.

Thinking for yourself, questioning authority, questioning "the rules", listening, asking questions, train a lot... will keep you alive.

Ask something to an instructor. When he gives you an answer, ask yourself: "Does what he says makes sense? Do I understand why he says this? Why does he says A, and not B?"
Don't be the fool in thinking: "oh, he's an instructor, he knows it better then me, so I'll do what he says."

Thinking will not replace experience of skill, but losts of jumps won't replace thinking either.

There are lots of people who got killed or injured following "the rules"

Use your brain!

[DZJ 0]

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In my opinion, blindly following "the rules and regulations" in a high risk sport as skydiving is extremely dumb, and shows that you probably shouldn't jump in the first place.

Thinking for yourself, questioning authority, questioning "the rules", listening, asking questions, train a lot... will keep you alive.

Personally I think you've overstated the case. A lot of rules in this sport are the result of years of practical experience and often (sadly) large numbers of injuries and/or fatalities. Of course you shouldn't blindly agree with what you hear from others, but at the same time it's probably worth recognising that conventional wisdom (for example, not exceeding 1:1 on a first canopy, or freeflying with exposed bridle) is usually sound.

[Orange1 0]

Argyle, that was a great post.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Remster 24]

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I'm allergic to people who come here to tell "these are the rules". What happend to people thinking?

Sigh...


Thinking is great.

You do realize the BSRs were written in blood, dont you?

Remster

[Legs 0]

Thinking is ok, as long as you respect experience. The rules are made from experience so we shouldn't discount them just cos we think something different. On the other hand if you disagree with a rule we should THINK, what am I missing that caused this rule to be implemented?

Keep safe up there!!! Am I competent? at my stage, I am competent in following rules and learning, oh and enjoying every jump.

With love in Christ

[aguila 0]

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There are lots of people who got killed or injured following "the rules"

Use your brain!

IMHO you are absolutely right.

People who think usually follow the right rules. People who do not think follow ALL the rules no matter if they are right or wrong.

. . . I have a feeling I might be bashed

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[argyle 0]

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I'm allergic to people who come here to tell "these are the rules". What happend to people thinking?

Sigh...


Thinking is great.

You do realize the BSRs were written in blood, dont you?

Thinking is pretty well over-rated. At best, do it on the ground.

Part of what I was talking about in the original post was that with experience, reaction to a situation is almost subconcious. That assumes a lot of training, practice, and thought, not just lots of jumps. If you are going to question what you are taught, you better think it ALL the way through, because in tight situations you will do what you were trained to do and you better be clear. When under pressure, you will not be able to think, especially if you're new.

Do not fight the system unless you really understand what you are doing.

Art

[D22369 0]

I'm allergic to people who come here to tell "these are the rules". What happend to people thinking?

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there are reasons for the BSR's, go read them




In my opinion, blindly following "the rules and regulations" in a high risk sport as skydiving is extremely dumb, and shows that you probably shouldn't jump in the first place.

WHOAAA..... you couldnt scream out 100 jump wonder attitude any louder here pal. If you fail to follow the regulations more than a few times- the dz may just ask you to move on down the road to die at another place. My home dropzone did just that once - the jumper had your attitude exactly... he cratered himself at the other dz in the area 6 months later...





There are lots of people who got killed or injured following "the rules"
***

ok, which rule got someone killed or injured in skydiving?


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[billvon 2,396]

>In my opinion, blindly following "the rules and regulations" in a high risk sport as skydiving is extremely dumb . . .

The rules were not written by some bureaucrat. They were written in blood. Pretty much every BSR and guideline was written after someone died doing the opposite.

Water training and visual spotting? The Lake Erie incident. Exit order? Several fatal collisions. Oxygen usage? Check out the video in the S+T section. (Not fatal, fortunately, but very close.)

You are free to re-learn all that if you want. But I fear that you may not survive the process.

>Use your brain!

Works when you're playing football; your instincts work there. Doesn't work when you're skydiving; your ground-based instincts don't work there. That's why people blindly (at first) follow rules - they keep you alive until you have enough experience to know why they are there.

[hookitt 0]

Great post(s) argyle.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Nickkk 0]

Great Read!

What do you do when someone throws a big planet at you?
Throw your pilot chute in defense!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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In my opinion, blindly following "the rules and regulations" in a high risk sport as skydiving is extremely dumb, and shows that you probably shouldn't jump in the first place.

The "rules and regulations" like Brian Germains WNE (Wingloading Never Exceed" chart and BSR minimum pack opening altitudes should be regarded as a _conservative_ starting point and not something that can be questioned without extensive first and second hand experience.

Sometimes things change and accepted practices can be relaxed - once we had enough experience with ram-air parachutes we realized that people could make their first jump on square canopies.

Sometimes things change and the accepted practices are not sufficiently conservative. The 2000 foot BSR specified minimum pack opening altitude for C&D license holders is getting too close to where you have to worry about two-out scenarios with a slow opening canopy and Cypres and is too low to both get back from a later exit on a Turbine aircraft and have sufficient altitude to setup a high performance landing under a small canopy.

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Thinking for yourself, questioning authority, questioning "the rules", listening, asking questions, train a lot... will keep you alive.

Accepting what people have learned through death and injury as a conservative starting point is a fine idea.

[velvetjo 0]

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What is missing from the discussions about downsizing, camera use, high performance landings, etc is the realization that there are two nearly distinct processes involved. There is the skill to perform the trick, let’s say a high speed landing, and there is the background competency to handle yourself and be safe.

It's interesting that you bring this up in the context of other risk activities. I saw a talk by David Brashears of the Everest IMAX expedition years ago, and one of his main points was the potential for lack of an apprenticeship in modern climbing. I've seen a similar trend in whitewater kayaking over the last couple of decades, and it's definitely true of skydiving from what I've seen.

There is a basic tension in all of these activities created in varying parts by:

- marketing - think of how much you hear the word "extreme" nowadays

- gear improvements which make the activities more accessible

- our culture's consumer mentality - the customer is "king"

- the elimination of most serious threats to life safety from everyday life

So, in a way it's a setup for these poor folks. They're enticed into a typically low-appeal activity by mass marketing, allowed in a very short period of time to participate in relatively complex activities using sophisiticated gear that they may or may not fully understand, conditioned to believe that they're owed service rather than expected to perform at risk, and deceived about the potential consequences by the lack of true risk in everyday life. Is it any wonder that these attitudes exist?

I agree with you that humility is a great tool for any kind of learning, especially in risk activities. The big question is: how can you get someone to accept the need for both humility and an apprenticeship to skydiving? Experience has shown me that it either takes something really bad happening to them personally or a number of close calls to get this message through. There's got to be a better way - so what are we missing? Maybe we ought to be questioning our collective leadership abilities in this area just as much as the seeming lack of good judgment by junior jumpers?

Lance

[argyle 0]

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It's interesting that you bring this up in the context of other risk activities. I saw a talk by David Brashears of the Everest IMAX expedition years ago, and one of his main points was the potential for lack of an apprenticeship in modern climbing. I've seen a similar trend in whitewater kayaking over the last couple of decades, and it's definitely true of skydiving from what I've seen.

I have to agree that there is not much of an apprenticeship program in skydiving, but neither is there in the other sports that I mentioned. The best approach in my experience was in motorcycle racing, where the novices had to attend a class and a riding school at every race. Both were led by very experienced racers. You were a novice until you accumulated enough points by your finishing positions to advance.

The toughest one to learn was mountain biking. There were no teachers and no rules. For the first couple of years, I was constantly damaging myself.

In skydiving, after AFF, you are pretty much thrown to the wolves. At my dz, there are some extremely competent guys, and they do watch over things, but generally it is up to you. I have no complaints about that, but I came to it with a lot of experience doing this other stuff, and nothing to prove.

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I agree with you that humility is a great tool for any kind of learning, especially in risk activities. The big question is: how can you get someone to accept the need for both humility and an apprenticeship to skydiving? Experience has shown me that it either takes something really bad happening to them personally or a number of close calls to get this message through.

Well, each dz is responsible for its own culture. It would be nice to have something like the novice classes I mentioned, but who would do it or pay for it? How about having the annual Safety Day every month or so? Well, go and organize it. Not so easy.

I think it's going to be a personal choice forever. Years ago, in between motorcycle races, I talked to a guy standing at the next urinal about the last race. He said he was pissed about his lousy finish, and it was "balls to the wall" on the next race. Yes, Mildred, the ambulance took him away. What can you say?

Art

[Thijs 0]

Ok, now I understand!
Because I only have 80 jumps, 1 year of experience, and I'm just 19 years old, I know nothing and my opinion doesn't matter.

You're attitude is the exactly the one that keeps me from going to my dz currenctly. There is just only one person there who I can have a serious conversation with. For the rest of the jumpers I'm just 'air' or 'loadfilling' there.

Maybe I should just stop skydiving...

[Orange1 0]

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Ok, now I understand!
Because I only have 80 jumps, 1 year of experience, and I'm just 19 years old, I know nothing and my opinion doesn't matter.

You're attitude is the exactly the one that keeps me from going to my dz currenctly. There is just only one person there who I can have a serious conversation with. For the rest of the jumpers I'm just 'air' or 'loadfilling' there.

Maybe I should just stop skydiving...

wow, what a mature response.

as i read argyle's original post, it wasn't about "following the rules" blindly, but about considering all factors involved in what makes you safe and competent. i thought he used a great example too. but i guess people only hear what they want to hear sometimes.

btw, from your other post:

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Ask something to an instructor. When he gives you an answer, ask yourself: "Does what he says makes sense? Do I understand why he says this? Why does he says A, and not B?"
Don't be the fool in thinking: "oh, he's an instructor, he knows it better then me, so I'll do what he says."

I agree you shouldn't blindly follow what people say just because they are instructors. But, it may be an idea to actually ask the instructor (not yourself) why he says A and not B... it may well be something that you just haven't thought of, or that you didn't even know could happen.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[HillerMyLife 0]

***
In motorcycle racing, we used to say "Get smooth before you get fast."


First off great thread, you make a lot of sound points. This particular one above is the one that stuck out to me because we had a similar expression in the military. "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast"

The beautiful thing about skydiving is that there is no limit to the things a person can learn about themselves and the air. Thats what has kept me coming back for more. The only reason we keep having incidents is because jumpers don't have the patience to take it one step at a time, and instead want to do everything right now.

Its great to be enthusiastic about the sport but it must be tempered with patience and understanding so that we can all continue to enjoy it.

Someday Never Comes

[D22369 0]

Ok, now I understand!
Because I only have 80 jumps, 1 year of experience, and I'm just 19 years old, I know nothing and my opinion doesn't matter.

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I went back and re read my post, I cannot fathom where you got this from it... your age and jump numbers are not the issue, your attitude is.




You're attitude is the exactly the one that keeps me from going to my dz currenctly. There is just only one person there who I can have a serious conversation with. For the rest of the jumpers I'm just 'air' or 'loadfilling' there.

maybe you could point out the bad attitude I am displaying? I went back and read my post again to try to understand what has set you off, I cannot quite fathom it. Was it the part where my dz decided that one jumper who would NOT listen to anyone was not welcome there anymore? Was it where I pointed out the 100 jump wonder attitude being displayed? both observations are accurate.

the rules and regulations you find in this sport are their because people died to prove they were needed.



Maybe I should just stop skydiving...
***
I hope you dont, I hope you stay to become a very competent skydiver, but to do that, your going to have to learn, and when learning, why do it the hard way? use others mistakes instead of making an identical mistake yourself (less painfull)


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[argyle 0]

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***
In motorcycle racing, we used to say "Get smooth before you get fast."


First off great thread, you make a lot of sound points. This particular one above is the one that stuck out to me because we had a similar expression in the military. "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast"

The beautiful thing about skydiving is that there is no limit to the things a person can learn about themselves and the air. Thats what has kept me coming back for more. The only reason we keep having incidents is because jumpers don't have the patience to take it one step at a time, and instead want to do everything right now.

Its great to be enthusiastic about the sport but it must be tempered with patience and understanding so that we can all continue to enjoy it.

Amen. And thanks to all who enjoyed my little rant.

Art

[aguila 0]

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Maybe I should just stop skydiving...

Nope! They just want you to stop questioning (thinking.)

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet