Just venting...

[OSOK 0]

Coming across this article http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/grom2.html I find it a little upsetting that Meyer gets away with generalizing that packers are a contributing factor of mals. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the short article and you'll catch it in the first section.

Meyer: not all packers do the "assembly line" packing that you consider to be a cause of mals. Thank you for the informative article, but a change of wording would be nice.

[brettski74 0]

Relax! The article was written 7 years ago. Judging by your number of jumps you were not even close to being in the sport by then, so how do you know that this comment wasn't justified back then?

When I was taught to pack, I was shown how to lay my lines in the packing tray to reduce the chance of snags during deployment. I would guess that we only have this knowledge today because of past experience - ie. I'm suggesting that people probably did have mals due to packing problems at some time in the past which drove someone else to figure out how to avoid it and show us newbies today. With our number of years in the sport, who are we to say that this wasn't the case 7 years ago?

[DSE 3]

"Gets away with?" or merely states a self-determined fact based on experience?
Rig manufacturers are also held to scrutiny in that article, regardless of it's age.
Jan Meyer's forgotten more about skydiving than many folks will ever know.
That experience does lead to a certain level of well-informed credibility, wouldn't you agree?

Even though the article is *very* old in terms of what's changed in recent times, wouldn't you agree that the pack job is responsible for the majority of malfunctions?
Are you a full-time packer?

[OSOK 0]

I was a packer on weekends at a very busy DZ. And yes, I'm sure the packing makes a diff, but she says "jumpers using packers" like saying packers are a bad thing or something. I guess I don't care that much, I didn't notice the article was so old.

[Samurai136 0]

Generally, jumpers who rely to heavily on packers are not addressing routine gear maintenance issues.
How many packers would notice a grommet that needed to be reset?
How many would refuse to pack a rig until the grommet was reset?

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[CSpenceFLY 1]

You may be the most professional, most careful packer in the world but they are not all that way.I know we live in the United States of the Offended but get over it and be happy you don't fit into the group she is talking about.

[kkeenan 13]

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I guess I don't care that much, ...

So much for your strongly held convictions and your righteous indignation.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[kirkverner 0]

Bad packing definitely accounts for some malfunctions, but the lack of ability to fly your opening contributes as well.

ParacleteXP

[MotherGoose 0]

Being a packer, you should relate to this article even more so. I don't believe anyone is flaming you here, and I think you have come to the realization that Jan is 100% bang on with the production line comment. We all know full well when the mat gets busy, and impatient jumpers are getting a call for the next load, the pressure is on and the packers, while still "packing" safely, may not do the prescribed amount of safety checks that could discover something as miniscule as a loose grommet. I don't care about the age of the article, I find it to be very applicable to this very day.

I love your money people, but if you want to feel 100% safe about your gear . . . PACK IT YOURSELF.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[kkeenan 13]

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I love your money people, ...

Unfortunately, that is the extent of the involvement that some packers feel toward the equipment that they work on. No packer has ever been hurt or disabled by the bad opening of a customer's canopy. For what it's worth, I feel that Jan's statement is as valid now as it was the day it was printed.

I applaud your honesty in stating "...if you want to feel 100% safe about your gear . . . PACK IT YOURSELF." Even if they don't feel 100% safe, at least they won't have to look far to find the source of their problems.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Coming across this article http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/grom2.html I find it a little upsetting that Meyer gets away with generalizing that packers are a contributing factor of mals. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the short article and you'll catch it in the first section.

Meyer: not all packers do the "assembly line" packing that you consider to be a cause of mals. Thank you for the informative article, but a change of wording would be nice.

I saw your other post in the other thread, but did not know how to comment on an 80-something jump jumper, 7 years down the road interpreting the article.

That article came about because my friend, James Martin, had a main suspension line hang up on a loose grommet on the top flap of a brand new Reflex.

After James went in, I contacted several manufacturers to ask them about this type of malfunction. Over the course of a month or so, I collected many comments, insights and first-hand accounts of similar non-fatal incidents.

Then, much to everyone's surprise, another jumper went in with main suspension lines entangled on a tongue type closing loop on a Javelin. This happen about 2 months after James went in.

One common thought expressed by all the mfgs was that they did not realize this malfunction was happening as frequently as it was.

That's when I wrote the article.

In the article I say:

Quote

Factors that contribute to this include:

* small diameter suspension lines,
* deployment when a jumper is not face to Earth and
* assembly-line packing techniques that overlook the placement of lines in the pack tray.

These contributing factors are on the increase because

* more canopy manufacturers use new materials for suspension lines,
* more jumpers participate in freefly, headdown and board jumps, and
* many jumpers use packers.

and

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Precautions that each jumper may take to reduce the probability of these malfunction modes include:

* Check grommet seating during EVERY packing. Grommets loosen with age.
* Ensure proper placement of suspension lines in container.
* Deploy face to Earth.
* Remove a tongue type closing loop.

You may carefully observe that packing is one of several contributing factors in these types of malfunctions. It also was not directed at you personally.

At the time, there was a systemic problem with equipment, the tongue type closing loop, grommets that were not properly seated and packing procedures. There were also many more assembly line packing concessions. Several people packed one person's rig, not just one person doing the entire pack job. Today, you don't see that as often.

The industry responded and issued SBs to require the removal of tongue type closing loops and several mfgs changed the way they seat grommets.

Packing was improved too by the packers and individual jumpers. Everyone started paying attention to where the excess lines were in relation to the closing loop.

I actually think you have benefited by these changes, but are too new to realize it.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[DougH 270]

Could you please explain what a tongue style is closing loop? I like to be on top of gear terminology, but this one is new to me.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Could you please explain what a tongue style is closing loop? I like to be on top of gear terminology, but this one is new to me.

see SunPath SB
and attached graphic.

You won't see them on rigs nowadays. Only closeted rigs may have them.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[OSOK 0]

Quote

...
I saw your other post in the other thread, but did not know how to comment on an 80-something jump jumper, 7 years down the road interpreting the article.
...

Why is it that almost everyone in skydiving uses the "[insert jumps]-jump wonder" line? I'm sorry, I felt like venting before, then I didn't, and now after reading your reply, MakeItHappen, I feel like venting again. What do jump numbers have to do with someone's opinion on the matter? I could have the same exact opinion and not be a skydiver at all, just a packer. What then would you use to belittle me? If you were using the jump-wonder line to refer to my time in skydiving...

It sucks about your friend, and I'm glad something good came out of it like that article that has probably saved many lives through-out the years. You are right, I'm sure I have benefited from the changes the article brought about. All I said is that the author generalizes that all packers "overlook the placement of lines in the pack tray." Under the "contributing factors" instead of putting "many jumpers use packers," she could've put "packjobs are rushed when they shouldn't be" and it would've come across much better.

I'm not the type to get bothered by little things, but for someone reason this one just irks me.

[IanHarrop 37]

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Quote

...
I saw your other post in the other thread, but did not know how to comment on an 80-something jump jumper, 7 years down the road interpreting the article.
...

Why is it that almost everyone in skydiving uses the "[insert jumps]-jump wonder" line? I'm sorry, I felt like venting before, then I didn't, and now after reading your reply, MakeItHappen, I feel like venting again. What do jump numbers have to do with someone's opinion on the matter? I could have the same exact opinion and not be a skydiver at all, just a packer. What then would you use to belittle me? If you were using the jump-wonder line to refer to my time in skydiving...

It sucks about your friend, and I'm glad something good came out of it like that article that has probably saved many lives through-out the years. You are right, I'm sure I have benefited from the changes the article brought about. All I said is that the author generalizes that all packers "overlook the placement of lines in the pack tray." Under the "contributing factors" instead of putting "many jumpers use packers," she could've put "packjobs are rushed when they shouldn't be" and it would've come across much better.

I'm not the type to get bothered by little things, but for someone reason this one just irks me.

I've now read the article twice I don't see where she generalizes that all packers "overlook the placement of lines in the pack tray." Maybe I missed it, if I did I apologize. If its not there were, you reading between the lines, see things that weren't there? Like where you suggested she used the term "[insert jumps]-jump wonder". I didn't see the word "wonder" in her post.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[OSOK 0]

Sigh. Time to lock this before it gets too boring.

[IanHarrop 37]

Quote

Sigh. Time to lock this before it gets too boring.

Perhaps a reasoned response to a reasoned question is too much to ask for at this time of night.

Have a good night

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Quote

...
I saw your other post in the other thread, but did not know how to comment on an 80-something jump jumper, 7 years down the road interpreting the article.
...

Why is it that almost everyone in skydiving uses the "[insert jumps]-jump wonder" line? I'm sorry, I felt like venting before, then I didn't, and now after reading your reply, MakeItHappen, I feel like venting again. What do jump numbers have to do with someone's opinion on the matter? I could have the same exact opinion and not be a skydiver at all, just a packer. What then would you use to belittle me? If you were using the jump-wonder line to refer to my time in skydiving...

It sucks about your friend, and I'm glad something good came out of it like that article that has probably saved many lives through-out the years. You are right, I'm sure I have benefited from the changes the article brought about. All I said is that the author generalizes that all packers "overlook the placement of lines in the pack tray." Under the "contributing factors" instead of putting "many jumpers use packers," she could've put "packjobs are rushed when they shouldn't be" and it would've come across much better.

I'm not the type to get bothered by little things, but for someone reason this one just irks me.

You can be irked about it all you want and there is nothing I can do about that.

The only wonderment I have about you is your reading comprehension.

Reread Ian's post too.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[mirage62 0]

Perhaps it would be a good time for you to stand back and re-read your post and Jan's artical. Maybe after doing that you'll relax, maybe not. I've read it through and just can't see where she was out of line. Perhaps you pack perfect each time. BUT if you had been jumping a long time - i.e. why do jump numbers matter - than you might have traveled enough to see that not ALL packers are great packers. It's just a fact, it doesn't mean they are bad people they just don't do as good as other packers.

I never pack, if the packer is breathing and can get'er in the bag I pay and take my chances. Jan was making a valid point.

Btw you don't want to get her mad

Keep packing yu sound like someone who does care and I'll tip better!

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[OSOK 0]

You guys are right... it's just me

Blue skies all.

[doogie 0]

I'll put in my $0.02 here as well about the packing. I'm a retired professional packer. There are a lot of packers (and DZs) out there that do forget the responsibility that comes with being a packer: when a customer gives their rig to a packer, they are putting their life in that packer's hands. When I'm working, I'm first priority is in keeping my friends/customers safe and the last DZ I was at made it impossible for me to do that, so I quit. (I do have a real job and only packed p/t.)

Ok... I could go on venting for along time here, so I'll stop now. Gary Peek's thread covered a lot of stuff I could start saying here, so I'll just leave it at this.