Recommended Posts
mirage62 0
Looks like my poll in safety and training has run it course. 63% of these that have responded that they would be willing to sign a petition for the USPA to mandate separate landing area’s.
Education is a great tool, but for a VERY selected few we need a change in the rules so that the needs of many (safety) can be insured as much as possible. BTW I’m a bald, fat, middle-aged guy. I have no desire or skills to go beat the hell out of someone who swoops into the standard pattern.
I personally think Bill’s idea of changing the BSR is the way to go. Roger and Danny were educated they knew not to but chose to do it anyway. BSR’s are viewed differently and enforced more strictly.
We let this all blow over, when Roger was killed, we have to come together on this one now!
As B.O.B. would say
PEACE
Education is a great tool, but for a VERY selected few we need a change in the rules so that the needs of many (safety) can be insured as much as possible. BTW I’m a bald, fat, middle-aged guy. I have no desire or skills to go beat the hell out of someone who swoops into the standard pattern.
I personally think Bill’s idea of changing the BSR is the way to go. Roger and Danny were educated they knew not to but chose to do it anyway. BSR’s are viewed differently and enforced more strictly.
We let this all blow over, when Roger was killed, we have to come together on this one now!
As B.O.B. would say
PEACE
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little
did any read the newest parchutist ? - when i read the death percentages i found the statistics support exacly what is being said in this thread - if you add up the collisions and landings that are related to turns 180 deg or larger there are 9 - that is 43 percent of all the deaths last year - while all other groups have been going down these are on the rise - we are not picking on swoopers they are giving it to themselves - if their numbers were going down this thread wouldn't even be going now. i definatly feel that seperate landing ares are in order here and like sdc you have to be aprooved by the dzo or s&ta to use the swoop pond. i am tired of stepping in between a noob and a swooper to brake up a fight because the noob followed the standard pattern (like taught) and fucked up somebodies swoop - and i'm tired of having friends needlessly die - we have all accepted the fact that this is dangerous and may bounce someday and all i want is to be able to have a fighting chance if something does go wrong. being taken out doesn't give me that chance
marks 0
QuoteQuoteget real...
The topic is about as real as it gets.
If you wanna make jokes, the Improv has open mic nights every month.
no jokes, it was simply a statement that points out how stupid it is to say swooping is the problem.
danny was not a swooper, he was a belly flier. and it is stupid to say that is what caused it.
it is arrogance, and stupid decision making under canopy that caused this. regardless of the canopies size, and regardless of what he was doing. (which was doing a big way).
Goals from the take back the sky web site:
* Separate conventional patterns from swoop patterns in space or time at every DZ.
* Educate all skydivers on the importance of flying standard and predictable patterns
* Educate all skydivers on how to work into a congested pattern safely
* Educate all skydivers about proper break-off procedures and separation obtained by proper tracking plans
* Disallow spiraling in conventional patterns
* Disallow S-turns in conventional patterns
* Disallow high performance landings in conventional patterns
God help us. It's 2007 and most of us are still striving to achieve these simple goals. And a lot of us somehow think they are not worthy.
* Separate conventional patterns from swoop patterns in space or time at every DZ.
* Educate all skydivers on the importance of flying standard and predictable patterns
* Educate all skydivers on how to work into a congested pattern safely
* Educate all skydivers about proper break-off procedures and separation obtained by proper tracking plans
* Disallow spiraling in conventional patterns
* Disallow S-turns in conventional patterns
* Disallow high performance landings in conventional patterns
God help us. It's 2007 and most of us are still striving to achieve these simple goals. And a lot of us somehow think they are not worthy.
mirage62 0
Quote
danny was not a swooper, he was a belly flier. and it is stupid to say that is what caused it.
Danny wasn't a swooper???? I mean just what is a swooper? Danny did lot's of H.P. landings Are you really trying to tie in what the person does before the landing (F.F.,R.W., V.R.W)
Did he do them "right" I have no idea, but to somehow tie in that a belly flier swooper is not a swooper?????
Danny's mistake while doing a HP landing is what killed Bob not what he did the first 10,000 feet of the jump
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little
billvon 2,379
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>danny was not a swooper . . .
Danny was a swooper.
>he was a belly flier.
Danny was a belly flier.
>and it is stupid to say that is what caused it.
His _being_ a swooper did not cause it. His _doing_ a 270 in the pattern is what caused it.
>it is arrogance, and stupid decision making under canopy that caused
>this. regardless of the canopies size, and regardless of what he was doing.
This incident was caused by his decision to do a 270 in traffic. It was his decision to perform the maneuver that caused his and Bob's death; without that maneuver it is likely they would both still be alive.
Danny was a swooper.
>he was a belly flier.
Danny was a belly flier.
>and it is stupid to say that is what caused it.
His _being_ a swooper did not cause it. His _doing_ a 270 in the pattern is what caused it.
>it is arrogance, and stupid decision making under canopy that caused
>this. regardless of the canopies size, and regardless of what he was doing.
This incident was caused by his decision to do a 270 in traffic. It was his decision to perform the maneuver that caused his and Bob's death; without that maneuver it is likely they would both still be alive.
Danny was most definately NOT a swooper. He was a canopy pilot that had the ability to make a small canopy go fast over the ground. Ive seen hundreds of Dannys turns and resuting landings. They were good enough to save his life, and make his speed over the ground fast. It did not have consistancy, accuracy, or safe characteristics.
The true swoopers of today are the smallest component of skydiving today. I focus heavily on swooping, but I dont know that I would consider myself a "swooper".
Im seeking advice from accomplished canopy pilots. Im enrolled in a canopy piloting course next month.
Ive spoken with the DZO, the S&TA, and everyone else I could find at our DZ.
Ive made a commitment to my fellow skydivers to educate each other on ALL aspects of canopy flight.
Not just HP turns, but evaluating your position in the pattern, evaluating other peoples position in the pattern, and understanding how that is going to play out when your trying to land.
Even with all that has happened, I still saw large canopies spriraling down to levels that other canopies were on. I watched pilots cut each other off, I saw pilots not follow the indicated landing direction. None of these resulted in even a close call, but ya know what, its only a matter of time. And NONE of those things has anything to do with swooping. Its the general inability for MOST canopy pilots to separate themselves both vertiacally and horizontally from other pilots. That is a skill set that must be taught. You cannot give knowledge via policy. Its law that kids go to school, yet we still have a very large literacy problem in this country. Policy never fixes a problem, action and education breeds progress.
This isnt directed at anyone in particular.
Stop pointing fingers at a particular segment (swsoopers)and look at the real issues (safe canopy flight).
The true swoopers of today are the smallest component of skydiving today. I focus heavily on swooping, but I dont know that I would consider myself a "swooper".
Im seeking advice from accomplished canopy pilots. Im enrolled in a canopy piloting course next month.
Ive spoken with the DZO, the S&TA, and everyone else I could find at our DZ.
Ive made a commitment to my fellow skydivers to educate each other on ALL aspects of canopy flight.
Not just HP turns, but evaluating your position in the pattern, evaluating other peoples position in the pattern, and understanding how that is going to play out when your trying to land.
Even with all that has happened, I still saw large canopies spriraling down to levels that other canopies were on. I watched pilots cut each other off, I saw pilots not follow the indicated landing direction. None of these resulted in even a close call, but ya know what, its only a matter of time. And NONE of those things has anything to do with swooping. Its the general inability for MOST canopy pilots to separate themselves both vertiacally and horizontally from other pilots. That is a skill set that must be taught. You cannot give knowledge via policy. Its law that kids go to school, yet we still have a very large literacy problem in this country. Policy never fixes a problem, action and education breeds progress.
This isnt directed at anyone in particular.
Stop pointing fingers at a particular segment (swsoopers)and look at the real issues (safe canopy flight).
Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865
billvon 2,379
> Danny was most definately NOT a swooper.
I'm not going to get in an argument with people who consider themselves "real swoopers" to distinguish themselves from all those people who kill themselves. If you swoop, you're a swooper, by definition. If you do RW on your belly, you're a belly flyer. If you freefly, you're a freeflyer. Semantic arguments do nothing to solve this problem.
>Stop pointing fingers at a particular segment (swsoopers)and look at the
>real issues (safe canopy flight).
NO ONE is pointing fingers at swoopers. The problem isn't swoopers - it's people doing 270's in the pattern. Swoopers who do consistent, careful 90's in the pattern are not the problem.
I'm not going to get in an argument with people who consider themselves "real swoopers" to distinguish themselves from all those people who kill themselves. If you swoop, you're a swooper, by definition. If you do RW on your belly, you're a belly flyer. If you freefly, you're a freeflyer. Semantic arguments do nothing to solve this problem.
>Stop pointing fingers at a particular segment (swsoopers)and look at the
>real issues (safe canopy flight).
NO ONE is pointing fingers at swoopers. The problem isn't swoopers - it's people doing 270's in the pattern. Swoopers who do consistent, careful 90's in the pattern are not the problem.
MakeItHappen 15
QuoteTo the National Director,
None of my posts here are as an 'official National Director', unless specifically mentioned.
My posts represent my opinion, not USPA's.
QuoteYou say "I am curious about what canopy courses or canopy coaching or slice of sky that Bob Holler could have had or done that would have changed the outcome of Bob being attacked from behind and above?"
So Danny is now an attacker? I have about had it with your combatative nature towards swoopers. I am quite sure no swooper here wants to do 270's in a busy traffic pattern as we have just as much to loose as anyone else.
Yes, Danny, did 'attack' a fellow jumper.
Yes, I am sure Danny thought his airspace was clear, just like the guy in AZ that almost took out his gf.
Just like the two swoopers in Eloy that took each other out.
Just like the swooper in XC that took someone out.
Just like the guy that took Kallend out.
Just like the guy in Elsinore that took out someone.
etc, etc, etc
I am sure that ALL of the swoopers that did manuevers that they survived or ended in a collision thought that they had the space to do said manuever.
The problem is that some of them did not have the space and some of them took an innocent with them or gave an innocent a very fearful and real idea about how they could do everything right and still be taken out by someone doing something for their personal gratification.
The innocents are taking this personally, whether you like it or not or whether you believe it or not.
QuoteYou Say "Correct me if I'm wrong, but no matter what courses or coaches Bob may have had would not have made the slightest difference in him being taken out by Danny doing a manuever that is unacceptable in a crowded pattern."
So National Director are you telling me and all of YOUR othe constituants that you do not think education will help solve this problem? Again your emotional response is overiding your ability to think clearly about this issue and instituting policy on emotion is NEVER a wise thing to do.
In the particular cases of Danny killing Bob or the Elsinore incident (c2000) or the Eloy incident (bf almost taking out gf) or the Eloy (two swoopers taking each other out) or the XC (swooper taking out an innocent) or Kallend getting hit from behind, etc, yes I will say that no amount of education or coaching taken or assumed by the victims could have helped the victims of the collision.
Education for the swooper that caused the collision may not have helped. By all accounts the persons executing these HP approaches in these specific incidents were knowlegable about swooping. They chose to disregard the fact that they may not be able to see all before commitiing to a swoop and chose to swoop anyway.
Education would work for the guy that sprialed through a pattern and for the guy that tracked off towards the DZ, as opposed to the proper radial outbound from the formation's center.
Quote
You say: "This is a global problem with local solutions"
I say this is one of the smartest things I have heard you say to date and I agree with you whole heartedly.
You should read more of my posts more carefully too.
QuoteYou also say: "I would say to you and others that wish to swoop in conventional patterns that you need to wake up and realize that the conventional pattern people do not like being targets for swoopers and do take it personally when they get taken out."
I feel that any educated swooper will avoid swooping in the "Conventional Pattern".
Then explain why Danny did his swoop.
I've know Danny since 1992 and know that he was a very intelligent person.
But, he did something that was just plain wrong and took someone else out with him.
Education did not work in his case.
Maybe a DZ policy that separates HP from conventional patterns is what is needed.
Apparently, that policy was in place, but perhaps not enforced adequately enough, and Danny still disregarded it.
I do not think that USPA or anyone could formulate a rule that applies to all DZs. I am not in favor of a BSR addressing this issue.
This has to be addressed at the local DZ level.
Separate conventional and swoop type landings in space or time.
Why is that such a difficult concept for you?
Elsinore did it at the turn of the century and it has proven to be acceptable to their cliental.
QuoteThose that do should and probably would get "Educated" by the swoop purists out there. So attacking Mark, Chachi, CanuckinUSA, and the other swoopers out there by proposing legislation to limit turns is not getting you any closer to solving this problem. We as swoopers need to step up and "Educate" all canopypilots as to the propper way to land safely. We can all coexist safely and not kill each other. I promise not to "Attack" other people in the pattern if you promise to work with those of us who perform high performance landings to help solve this issue. So now National Director the ball is in your court. We look forward to your response.
Grant
see above.
.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
MakeItHappen 15
Quote"And it needs to come from us, or else it will come from outsiders who have real legal clout."
How many of the other deaths in our sport have caused intervention "from outsiders who have real legal clout"?
All of the 'no - over-fly' rules in the FARs for demo jumps are from the days that a pilot would let a jumper out and if they burned in, the DZ or airshow hosts could not be held accountable.
The FAA added in the pilot accountability to ensure safer operations.
The NV state legislature added the USPA BSRs as part of their code. Use search to find the details.
A foiled attempt was made by a mother of a 1st jump student.
See Jumping Through Clouds.
One could also place the changes that happened to FliteLine, Inc into this category too.
Years ago when most states had their own Civil Air Authority, there were many rules concerning demo jumps and just regular DZ jumps. There are a plethora of articles in Parachutist that address the locals taking on these rules.
The possibility of others getting state or federal legislation passed that mandates certain rules in skydiving is very real.
.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
marks 0
QuoteNO ONE is pointing fingers at swoopers.
I dissagree.
QuoteThe problem isn't swoopers - it's people doing 270's in the pattern.
agree, which is completly idiotic.
QuoteSwoopers who do consistent, careful 90's in the pattern are not the problem.
and neither are pilots who follow consistant landing patterns. but what about the pilots who fly erratic landing patterns. are they a problem too? of course they are. this problem has nothing to do with swoopers.
just because someone did a stupid thing and turned into traffic, doesnt mean a swooper killed someone. It means someone made a stupid mistake, killed himself and an innocent.
and now that we are not pointing fingers at swoopers. why don't everyone go to there dzo and suggest separate landing areas for people that dont want to follow a traditional landing pattern. that group will figure out what is best for them anyway.
easy fix..
mirage62 0
First everyone who is reading here should go over to Swooping and Canopy Control
And look at “Swooping banned at SD Arizona - there is a LOT of good discussion on that thread. This thread has turned into the few swoopers crying about “witch hunt” and “Danny wasn’t a swooper because…….” (and the funny part is the “because” I think was that he wasn’t that good at it????)
I really, really would like to hear from the “top dogs” of HP landing, perhaps I have but I don’t know the names.
I see some emotion from both sides but that’s to be expected this soon after and accident of this nature.
Also, “I’ve seen lot’s of non-swoopers cut off people….” That’s a great reason to NOT look at swoopers landing in the main landing area……………
And look at “Swooping banned at SD Arizona - there is a LOT of good discussion on that thread. This thread has turned into the few swoopers crying about “witch hunt” and “Danny wasn’t a swooper because…….” (and the funny part is the “because” I think was that he wasn’t that good at it????)
I really, really would like to hear from the “top dogs” of HP landing, perhaps I have but I don’t know the names.
I see some emotion from both sides but that’s to be expected this soon after and accident of this nature. Also, “I’ve seen lot’s of non-swoopers cut off people….” That’s a great reason to NOT look at swoopers landing in the main landing area……………
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little
billvon 2,379
>just because someone did a stupid thing and turned into traffic, doesnt
> mean a swooper killed someone.
A swooper killed someone. That's a basic fact of what happened. It would also be accurate to say that a skydiver killed someone, or a man killed someone, or a guy with a HP canopy killed someone. That doesn't mean that all men, or swoopers, or HP canopy pilots, or skydivers are killers. It _does_ mean that we have to look at this carefully to prevent it in the future, since his attempt to swoop cost someone else their life.
And since we've seen several of these sorts of accidents, it also means we should look into what was common in all these incidents. And the most common thread was not that he was a swooper (although he was) and it's not that he was a man (although he was.) It's that he didn't fly a standard pattern. That's what we have to concentrate on.
> mean a swooper killed someone.
A swooper killed someone. That's a basic fact of what happened. It would also be accurate to say that a skydiver killed someone, or a man killed someone, or a guy with a HP canopy killed someone. That doesn't mean that all men, or swoopers, or HP canopy pilots, or skydivers are killers. It _does_ mean that we have to look at this carefully to prevent it in the future, since his attempt to swoop cost someone else their life.
And since we've seen several of these sorts of accidents, it also means we should look into what was common in all these incidents. And the most common thread was not that he was a swooper (although he was) and it's not that he was a man (although he was.) It's that he didn't fly a standard pattern. That's what we have to concentrate on.
QuoteWhat I am trying to say is that making rules about banning swoopers from the main landing area at all times is not the solution to this problem.
*** Having seperate landings areas for high performance landings and pattern flyers is not "Banning swoopers". It's merely seperating folks who should not be sharing the same pattern. I fail to see what is so hard to understand about it. I love to swoop, but I have no problem landing in a different area.John Wright
World's most beloved skydiver
Quote
Just like the two swoopers in Eloy that took each other out.
I thought the Eloy double fatal was 2 NON swoopers? Far as I know neither was attempting a HP landing.
QuoteJust like the swooper in XC that took someone out.
Both were swoopers (if you're referring to the 05 collision)? Seperate landing areas wouldnt have changed this, they'd both be landing in the same area.
edited to add the standard: 'I am not supporting erratic piloting in the pattern, regardless of turn
Since you seem to have gathered a lot of info though, I'm still waiting to see how many of these happen at boogies/events vs regular DZ weekends? If for no other reason than to satisfy my curiousity, I'd be interesting IMO (or irrelevant but I can't determine that yet).
Blues.
Performance Designs Factory Team
QuoteI love to swoop, but I have no problem landing in a different area.
So far I haven't heard anyone complain about seperate landing areas. In fact, from what I can tell it's one of the few things we ALL agree on.
What I do see a lot of discussion on (bar the what is a swooper definition) is exactly what the ROOT of the problem is.
So far I think we're making progress. The emotions are dying down and the rational thought process is kicking in. I expect to see some good suggestions (above the obvious landing areas) to come forward.
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
skymama 35
QuoteHow bout we put speed limit on canopy.. anytime you clock faster than 30 miles an hour it is a ticket...
im not taking this serious am i????
For the sake of all the people who might be in the air with you at some point, maybe it's about time you did.
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon
Education is a good thing.
Educating idiots is a righteous goal but what you wind up with is only educated idiots.
Just watch the skies...you will see many, many educated idiots flying canopies in the sky in close proximity.
You can't legislate stupidity. It's up to the DZOs to put a halt to the idiocy in the sky.
"You wanna be an idiot? Go somewhere else." Period.
You can probably tell that I blame the DZOs for letting idiots get away with doing idiotic stuff that hurts other people. A few groundings and some of the idiots would calm down or go somewhere else until there is no where else to go. (Yes, I'm dreaming...there will always be some DZO that will allow the idiocy at his/her DZ.)
I am really, really pissed at what the idiots are doing to our fantastic sport.
Just think what the numbers would actually be if they only represented true accidents and not stupidity.
Educating idiots is a righteous goal but what you wind up with is only educated idiots.
Just watch the skies...you will see many, many educated idiots flying canopies in the sky in close proximity.
You can't legislate stupidity. It's up to the DZOs to put a halt to the idiocy in the sky.
"You wanna be an idiot? Go somewhere else." Period.
You can probably tell that I blame the DZOs for letting idiots get away with doing idiotic stuff that hurts other people. A few groundings and some of the idiots would calm down or go somewhere else until there is no where else to go. (Yes, I'm dreaming...there will always be some DZO that will allow the idiocy at his/her DZ.)
I am really, really pissed at what the idiots are doing to our fantastic sport.
Just think what the numbers would actually be if they only represented true accidents and not stupidity.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Thank you.
Oh, the only kicker is that sometimes there is a fine line between an "accident" and "stupidity".
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865
How many of the other deaths in our sport have caused intervention "from outsiders who have real legal clout"?
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites