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the blind spot is below your ass behind you about the same spot you will be after the 270 and at 60-70 mph the poor idiot that was there is now dead
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If you set up with a long right or left hand pattern before you set up for your 270 you get to see where everyone else is in the sky , Then you make you the decision to swoop or bail depending on traffic , Problems arise when people commit themselves to a swoop on every jump regardless of traffic . They are the dangerous ones .
Don't try and ban swooping or 270's , Ban the idiots !

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i don't want swooping banned - i don't do it and thats my choice - if others want to that is their choice - when ever a mojor problem starts to happen we usually find a way to fix it - how long will it take and how many more people will bill killed or injured before the swoopers decide it is time to fix the problem - if they let others fix the problem they won't like the result - so i say swoopers this is your chance to get together and fix the problem and do it now before someone that has the authority fixes it for you - weather it be the faa , uspa , or non swoopers the end result is swooping will sufer weather severly limited to completely banned

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the blind spot is below your ass behind you about the same spot you will be after the 270 and at 60-70 mph the poor idiot that was there is now dead

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If you set up with a long right or left hand pattern before you set up for your 270 you get to see where everyone else is in the sky , Then you make you the decision to swoop or bail depending on traffic , Problems arise when people commit themselves to a swoop on every jump regardless of traffic . They are the dangerous ones .
Don't try and ban swooping or 270's , Ban the idiots !



What about the people who think they are cool but are really idiots?

There are 4 dimensions to this problem, x,y,z, and t. The swoopers must be separated from the people flying a standard pattern by an adequate amount in one or more of these dimensions.

Turning a 270 or more in a standard pattern is reckless behavior, regardless of how good you think you may be.

I have been hit at low altitude by someone spiraling through the pattern. It was not a pleasant experience.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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the blind spot is below your ass behind you about the same spot you will be after the 270 and at 60-70 mph the poor idiot that was there is now dead - thanx - swooping is by far the major cause of the deaths and injuries in the sport today and if the swoopers don't fix it soon the big guy at the faa will and were will that leave us all



swooping IS NOT the major cause of death and injury. in fact, it is just one of the causes. while most are canopy related now your ignorance on the issue and your subsequent lack of recognizing that YOU also need to learn more to prevent these incidences will allow the problem to perpetuate; not go away.

wake up please. educate yourself, do more canopy only training, get coaching, learn how to put yourself into your own slice of the sky. these things will prevent accident; not going on rampages about how swooping is the problem.

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swooping is by far the major cause of the deaths and injuries in the sport today and if the swoopers don't fix it soon the big guy at the faa will ...



Here Chachi I'll fix it for you ... ;)

People doing stupid things under canopy is by far the major cause of the deaths and injuries in the sport today and if the people doing stupid things under canopy don't fix it soon the big guy at the faa will ...


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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i don't want swooping banned - i don't do it and thats my choice



If you don't swoop, why are you jumping a canopy geared towards swooping? Your jump #s say you're qualified to be jumping it (of course jump #s indicate experience ... not skill). But it just doesn't make sense why you would be flying such a high performance highly loaded canopy if you're not actually using it for what it was designed to be used for.

I jumped a highly loaded swooping canopy because swooping is my discipline of choice, I dedicate jumps towards it and I've decided to take my swooping progression to the various competitive swooping circuits. So why do you jump a highly loaded swooping canopy?


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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swooping is not the only problem causing death and injury but is by far the biggest - this is a fact not an attack or a made up thought - i don't care if you want to swoop but if you guys want to continue you have to find a way to to make it safer for yourselves and others around you and if you don't you will find dz's start banning them - aren't we tired of the sensless deaths and negative attention yet? if you get rid of radical manuvers close to the ground doesn't that leave you with about half the deaths and injuries ? face the facts something needs to be done i don't care how it gets done but i bet it would be better if the swoopers fixed rather than another group

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just because i like speed and response doesn't mean i want to attempt to kill myself or someone else you can have alot of fun and excitement away from the landing area and people that are triing to land safely - the landing area is for ALL people and when in the pattern it is everyones responsibility to repect that by fliing a standard pattern so everyone can land safe

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swooping is not the only problem causing death and injury but is by far the biggest - this is a fact not an attack or a made up thought - i don't care if you want to swoop but if you guys want to continue you have to find a way to to make it safer for yourselves and others around you and if you don't you will find dz's start banning them - aren't we tired of the sensless deaths and negative attention yet? if you get rid of radical manuvers close to the ground doesn't that leave you with about half the deaths and injuries ? face the facts something needs to be done i don't care how it gets done but i bet it would be better if the swoopers fixed rather than another group



go throught the fatality list over the last few years and then tell me the majority of the deaths were swooping related.

again YOU are part of the problem; as is everyone that doesn't understand that the only thing that will truly fix this problem is if everyone learns to think ahead and find their own piece of blue sky to fly the canopy in. horizontal and vertical separation is the key.

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the blind spot is below your ass behind you about the same spot you will be after the 270 and at 60-70 mph the poor idiot that was there is now dead - thanx - swooping is by far the major cause of the deaths and injuries in the sport today and if the swoopers don't fix it soon the big guy at the faa will and were will that leave us all



swooping IS NOT the major cause of death and injury. in fact, it is just one of the causes. while most are canopy related now your ignorance on the issue and your subsequent lack of recognizing that YOU also need to learn more to prevent these incidences will allow the problem to perpetuate; not go away.

wake up please. educate yourself, do more canopy only training, get coaching, learn how to put yourself into your own slice of the sky. these things will prevent accident; not going on rampages about how swooping is the problem.



Hey Chachi,

I am curious about what canopy courses or canopy coaching or slice of sky that Bob Holler could have had or done that would have changed the outcome of Bob being attacked from behind and above?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no matter what courses or coaches Bob may have had would not have made the slightest difference in him being taken out by Danny doing a manuever that is unacceptable in a crowded pattern. Perhaps, if Bob took a line 10 ft to the right or left, Danny would have missed him. But how would Bob know that?

I would say to you and others that wish to swoop in conventional patterns that you need to wake up and realize that the conventional pattern people do not like being targets for swoopers and do take it personally when they get taken out.
This has happened with such frequency that the normally silent majority will rise up and demand action by DZOs.

It won't be just me asking DZOs to separate swoops from the main landing area this weekend, it will be the majority of jumpers.

I also agree that s-turns and spirals should be removed from the main landing area too.

DZOs must act now. This is a global problem with local solutions. The DZO or S&TA must make the landing patterns safe for all jumpers.
Skydive Arizona and Skydive the Farm have changed their policies already. Elsinore changed their policy years ago after a non-fatal collision there.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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all of the canopy training in this world can not protect me from a swooper running me down - the training that most skydivers get is to fly a 90 pattern into landing and the people that follow this training are the ones getting run over - i've flown in planes, raced cars and bikes i know when and where to be radical while still being safe - what do you think would happen if i flew a split s into ohare airport and landed in front of another plane triing to land ? this is excactly what is going on in the main landing area - i've done stunts in several planes at a reasonable altitude and in clear airspace - i've raced cars and bike on tracks and roads that are predriven and found clear and safe - the key here is knowing when it is safe to be radical and i don't see a good percentage of the swoopers following safe practices - so isay get together as a group and figure it out before others do it for you - i don't want to see anyone loose their right to have fun but thats were it is heading at this point - swoopers have the ability to save their sport but i don't see any of them stepping forward to do so - do the swoopers love their sport so little and are to stubborn that they can't find a constructive way to help generate a good idea or 2 to make things safer - all i see is people critisizing the ones that want to stop the deaths - in the past we have worked out the exit order, exit seperation, aad, gear adjustments to make them safer, why can't we after 8 years work on the swoopers and the landing area and find a good plan that saves lives ? are the 3 or 4 swoopers on the laod more inportant than the other 17? and i did see the incedent reports 93 of the last 195 deaths recorded are from landings and collisions mostly due to hook turns

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I'm not a swooper so take whatever the hell I say with a grain of salt...

I think it's safe to say that everyone with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together can figure out that we (collectively as a community) have a problem that needs addressing as soon as possible. I don't think this is a "swooping" problem, anymore than I think it's a problem with the USPA not having a rule that explicitly covers this...

What's the answer? Hell, I don't know... but until, and IF, something is mandated for all to follow, I'm going to educate myself a bit more on swooping. No, not to swoop... but as a means of better being able to ID those flying patterns that indicate that someone is setting up for a swoop so I can stay the hell out of the way JUST IN CASE (s)he doesn't see me...

I'd love to be able to offer a suggestion as to what we can do about collisions at low altitude, but I think most of the decent ideas have already been expressed by someone previously. So... whenever you folks decide that we should separate the landing areas and formalize canopy training requirements as part of the licensing structure then let me know. Until then, I'm going skydiving. B|
Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

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I've stayed out of this whole thing until now letting myself get my head around everything that I saw at Dublin and not flying off the handle. I've tried to keep up with everything that was being said and I'm sure I've missed some stuff but so far since Danny and Bob went in I've seen calls for new BSRs, separate landing areas, more canopy training, finger pointing at swoopers, and some other miscellaneous stuff I can't remember.

I'm coming up on six years in the sport and looking back on what I saw when I started and what I see now I hate to say it, but so far everyone is dead wrong. Addressing the above mentioned areas certainly have their merits, but they are not the root of the problem. Everyone stop reading, get up and go to your bathroom, or bedroom, or whereever you have one of those large reflective thingies and get a good look because that is the problem.

The problem is US. As is YOU. As in ME. As in the guy sitting next to you in the plane or standing next to you by the beer fridge.

We've gotten soft. We've gotten lax. We're more worried about being someones' drinking and skydiving buddy than we are about keeping that buddy alive.

I spent ten years working in industrial production and manufacturing in the paper industry. There's machinery that will rip your fingers off if you look at them wrong, caustic chemicals galore, chlorine dioxide generators that puff without warning expeling junk just eager to burn your lungs out. Better know where the wind socks are located because of the safety man is walking around he may just throw an informal quiz at ya to see if you know what to do when the chemical plant has an accidental release (hint- check the wind) . Go ahead and walk around where you're not supposed to, take off your hard hat and your safety glasses, forget your escape respirator, do something in a stupid unsafe manner that puts you or someone else at risk for an accident and see who's worried about being your drinking buddy.

No one. You will get called on it and if you don't shape up better work on your resume.

It's not unusual to walk into a facility and see banners proclaiming '1,000,000 SAFE MANHOURS' or two million, three million, hell FIVE million. They get that way by being less talk and more action. They get that way by not standing around thinking 'hey- he shouldn't be doing that. Someone should have a talk with him' That get that way by doing something about it. I'm talking from the mill manager to the utility sweeper- they all speak up and tell you you need a hard hat. Where's your glasses? Hey- you need fall protection if you're going up that high. I've seen upper level mill management shit canned in a matter of minutes for this kind of stuff.

I want Bill Scott the Quintessential DZO ahole keeping his skydivers away from the hanger and out of trouble. I want Joe Benett chewing me out in the landing area again for landing the wrong way. I want Skydave busting some greybeard for blowing way past the hard deck before pulling. I want people pulling new jumpers off of sit-fly jumps when they just got their A- license.

And for pete's sake I want people called to task when they put someone else at risk by hooking when they're not supposed to or doing something colosally stupid. Yes, accidents will happen. Accidents are exits that funnel with a handle getting yanked. Accidents are misjudging your swoop which you executing in a perfectly safe and responsible manner resulting in you skipping off the ground like a flat stone. This wasn't Danny's first big-way that day. Did he hook on the others? I don't know, maybe. Did anyone say anything to him? I don't know, maybe. Probably not because he's Danny Page. We've become a bunch of panzies pussyfooting with each other because we want to be a cool guy at the dropzone. And I'm guilty- oh I'm guilty as hell on this and so are you. It's always someone elses responsibility to have a talk with someone but not ours.

Last time I was out at the Farm many months ago I was up in the plane and went to open the door to spot. All the people back there with me were pointing at the light telling me to wait. I went 'ya ya I know' stuck my head out, took a look, ok- right on top perfect pop the door open and wait. Well back on the ground Sporto was organizing that weekend and had the little chat with me about the light. No big deal, just wait for the lite and the pilot to give you the door (which I already knew but ignored for no reason) since you don't really know what's going on.

Well, then I did the other thing we're all guilty of- I took an attitude about. He was just some basejumper skygod dickhead. What's his damn problem? The simple fact is that I did something stupid that I knew I shouldn't have and he called me on it. He was right and I was wrong. End of story.

If you're not comfortable talking to someone about something because they are older, or more experienced, or a big name in the sport fine- I'm not comfortable a lot of times either. Find someone who is comfortable with the situation. Find the S&TA, find one of their other friends and bring it up. Find the other organizer and ask him to address the issue, but please don't stay silent any longer. Don't make excuses any longer.

If you're on the receiving end of this please stop and listen. Hear them out. Take a breath and think about it because there's probably a reason for it. If there was something extenuating or misread about the situation fine- I'm not asking you to roll over or run and hide over it but I am asking you to listen and think about it. If they're right they're right regardless of who you are. If there's a hole in the setup or the system let's work it out.

But if you're wrong, you are wrong. Take a breath, think about it, look at them like I did many times over those ten years in industry and say 'You're right. Thank you for watching out for me.' I understand why people get defensive- when you are on the receiving end it stings and it hurts. It's a bit embarrassing, maybe your reputation suffers a little, or you're thinking about being the topic of discussion at the bonfire that night. That stinging sensation you feel? That, my friend, is called the truth and the truth hurts.

The truth can hurt so much that it's downright fatal.

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I'll second that. You got your points across very clear. I prefer to not land in the main landing area and also to exit last or near the end of a load. If a swooper ever cut me off on a landing pattern and I did survive the encounter I would beat the living hell out of him. If it were a her, I'd probably have my girlfriend do it...getting your jollies off is okay, getting them off at the expense of others saftey is unacceptable.
Someday Never Comes

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the blind spot is below your ass behind you about the same spot you will be after the 270 and at 60-70 mph the poor idiot that was there is now dead - thanx - swooping is by far the major cause of the deaths and injuries in the sport today and if the swoopers don't fix it soon the big guy at the faa will and were will that leave us all



the problem isn't swoopers, it is big way belly fliers.

those fuckers don't know how to fly canopies.[:/]

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belly fliers? this thread is about is about canopy flying and landing and that includes all jumpers - and what you do before the canopy opens has no bearing on stupidity coming into the landing area - bottom line is that anyone making a standard pattern with 90 turns into the landing area is doing it wright - anyone pulling a stupid radical manuver is wrong and endagering everyone near him and for any person who thinks they have the right to do these manuvers needs to be talked to, moved to a different landing area or grounded - if people want to pound themselves into the ground that is their right but but do it somewere other than the main landing area -

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the blind spot is below your ass behind you about the same spot you will be after the 270 and at 60-70 mph the poor idiot that was there is now dead - thanx - swooping is by far the major cause of the deaths and injuries in the sport today and if the swoopers don't fix it soon the big guy at the faa will and were will that leave us all



the problem isn't swoopers, it is big way belly fliers.

those fuckers don't know how to fly canopies.[:/]



WTf, i tell you what shimmel you cut me off in any landing area i will show you how this kind of shit needs to be handled. To make a statement like that is fucking stupid. big way peeps handle their canopies better than a lot of swoopers. Just plain fucking arrogance
http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

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the problem isn't swoopers, it is big way belly fliers.

those fuckers don't know how to fly canopies.[:/]



Ladies and Gentlemen . . . THIS is a problem.

(What an amazingly arrogant and stupid fucking thing to say.)

Sorry man, you need a serious attitude adjustment.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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belly fliers? this thread is about is about canopy flying and landing and that includes all jumpers - and what you do before the canopy opens has no bearing on stupidity coming into the landing area - bottom line is that anyone making a standard pattern with 90 turns into the landing area is doing it wright - anyone pulling a stupid radical manuver is wrong and endagering everyone near him and for any person who thinks they have the right to do these manuvers needs to be talked to, moved to a different landing area or grounded - if people want to pound themselves into the ground that is their right but but do it somewere other than the main landing area -



thats what you call sarcasm my friend.

banning swoopers is about as stupid as saying this is because of big way belly dives.

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the problem isn't swoopers, it is big way belly fliers.

those fuckers don't know how to fly canopies.[:/]



Ladies and Gentlemen . . . THIS is a problem.

(What an amazingly arrogant and stupid fucking thing to say.)

Sorry man, you need a serious attitude adjustment.



get real...

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