Changes are needed, but not the knee-jerk way that some are proposing …

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Also maybe it's time that DZs re-invent the job responsibilities of "load organizer". I know some DZs do a decent job of communicating with each other as to who is planning on doing what before we leave the ground. But maybe more load organizers should be asking people who is planning on doing what under canopy before they even load the airplane. That way there is at least some sort of plan instead of relying on the "big sky" theory and all the potential chaos that comes with it.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TMPattersonJr 0]

Ok here is the only problem I see with the ISP. How do the AFF-I's know that the student is using the front/rear risers and seeing the benifit of them after a jump that most people have to think through to begin with? They're not flying next to them under canopy during braked turns, stalls, or riser maneuvers and half the time are signing them off without even asking them if they are doing the maneuvers.

Every chance I get I try to take the students who have just gotten their "A" and take them up and do a hop and pop at altitude, and have a preplanned routine for them to accomplish. if they complete the routine before breakoff time (which I normally set no lower than 3000') then they repeat the motions over and over until breakoff. I will shoot video so we can go over what they had done and how they might improve.

I didn't get this kind of training until I had about 50-75 jumps. I wished I could have taken Scott Millers course but I never had the money to do so. Just like the majority of the jumpers these days that are graduating AFF with little to no canopy experience and are paying for coach jumps for the coach to look at them maneuver in freefall. But still not really paying attention under canopy.

Canuck's opening statement says we are doing a piss poor job training people to be safer skydivers, that's only half true. I believe that we are training people to use their body more proficiently in the air now more than ever, we're just not doing as good a job when it comes to teaching them to be canopy pilots. Most people figure that the school of hard knocks is the best way to train

You can do a 5 point hundred ways all day long and not have a problem but if you can not fly your canopy worth a damn, you're risking your life as well as everyone around you.

Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook
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[billvon 2,383]

>But maybe more load organizers should be asking people who is
>planning on doing what under canopy before they even load the airplane.

I believe the UK has something like that, a "loadmaster" (usually a JM) who coordinates things like exit separation, exit order and landing. You could just appoint one person per load to do that, like a JM or organizer.

[AFFI 0]

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>But maybe more load organizers should be asking people who is
>planning on doing what under canopy before they even load the airplane.

I believe the UK has something like that, a "loadmaster" (usually a JM) who coordinates things like exit separation, exit order and landing. You could just appoint one person per load to do that, like a JM or organizer.

Say an 8 way team is getting out first and they have 2 swoopers, then a few groups later a FF team with 1 swooper.

What are we suggesting here? That exit order is based on canopy piloting?
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What are we suggesting here? That exit order is based on canopy piloting?

Absolutely not ... but if I'm in that freefly group, I need to be aware of the belly swoopers ... just as they need to be aware of me. You know I might just ask those belly guys what altitude they plan to break off at and pull at. If it's low in the basement, then I'll be more than happy to sequence myself after them. But if we're going to be all pulling at the same altitude and my freefly group follows theirs, there is a good chance that I'll be positioned to land before them. It's all about communicating ahead of time and agreeing on the plan.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,383]

>What are we suggesting here? That exit order is based on canopy piloting?

Not at all. The loadmaster sets exit order based on safe separation at opening time, and reminds people (for example) that the no-wind direction is north, that the pattern is _away_ from the runway, and no one should do 270's unless they are down first.

[AFFI 0]

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If it's low in the basement, then I'll be more than happy to sequence myself after them. But if we're going to be all pulling at the same altitude and my freefly group follows theirs, there is a good chance that I'll be positioned to land before them.

So you are suggesting changing exit order based on canopy piloting/type/WL's.

I know belly guys on the 8 way team I was thinking about when I composed that fly really hot canopies, their camera flyer too. What makes you think that FF'ers automically fly hotter canopies?

We still have exit order reccomendations based on freefall orientations and sizes of groups. Before you go changing the world there are other things to consider that you may not be thinking of right now. Slow down there bigguy...

And they're belly flyers, it is likely that they will be deploying in what most FF'ers consider the "basement".
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[NWFlyer 2]

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Ok here is the only problem I see with the ISP. How do the AFF-I's know that the student is using the front/rear risers and seeing the benifit of them after a jump that most people have to think through to begin with? They're not flying next to them under canopy during braked turns, stalls, or riser maneuvers and half the time are signing them off without even asking them if they are doing the maneuvers.

When I was a student I would plan out with my instructors what I was going to do under canopy and which of the canopy skills I was going to try to knock off on that particular jump. After I got down, I would generally get asked to talk through what I did and even describe it, such as "So what did you notice when you pulled down your rear riser? How was it different from using your toggles?" Then the instructor can talk through situations where you might apply that particular canopy skill. It's not perfect, but there are ways to validate what your students are doing.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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So you are suggesting changing exit order based on canopy piloting/type/WL's.

No!!!

I'm saying be aware of what the other groups are doing, what altitudes they plan on opening and what their landing plans are and then plan your entry into the pattern(s) accordingly.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TMPattersonJr 0]

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Ok here is the only problem I see with the ISP. How do the AFF-I's know that the student is using the front/rear risers and seeing the benifit of them after a jump that most people have to think through to begin with? They're not flying next to them under canopy during braked turns, stalls, or riser maneuvers and half the time are signing them off without even asking them if they are doing the maneuvers.

Good point, but I'd prefer to see it with my own eyes, and with me flying relative to them they get more of a picture of what their canopy is really doing.
When I was a student I would plan out with my instructors what I was going to do under canopy and which of the canopy skills I was going to try to knock off on that particular jump. After I got down, I would generally get asked to talk through what I did and even describe it, such as "So what did you notice when you pulled down your rear riser? How was it different from using your toggles?" Then the instructor can talk through situations where you might apply that particular canopy skill. It's not perfect, but there are ways to validate what your students are doing.

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[AFFI 0]

But say there are 3 or 4 groups between yours and theirs, it is likely that the jumpers in that first group will be landing long before you.

So I do not understand where you are comming from...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What makes you think that FF'ers automically fly hotter canopies?

Your words ... not mine.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AFFI 0]

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What makes you think that FF'ers automically fly hotter canopies?

Your words ... not mine.

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"But if we're going to be all pulling at the same altitude and my freefly group follows theirs, there is a good chance that I'll be positioned to land before them."

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[nbblood 0]

Well, if I'm freeflying and exit behind an RW group and we're pulling at the same altitude, I will almost always beat them to pull altitude. I routinely watch the very 8-way you speak of break off and deploy as I'm stowing my slider. I think that might be what he's getting at.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[AFFI 0]

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Well, if I'm freeflying and exit behind an RW group and we're pulling at the same altitude, I will almost always beat them to pull altitude. I routinely watch the very 8-way you speak of break off and deploy as I'm stowing my slider. I think that might be what he's getting at.

You see, I just don't listen...

All my life I fail terribly at communication.

Sorry...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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But say there are 3 or 4 groups between yours and theirs, it is likely that the jumpers in that first group will be landing long before you.

So I do not understand where you are comming from...

That's a no brainer ...

Let's say there is an experienced 8-way exiting first, followed by another experienced 4-way and and an inexperienced 4-way. Then the freefly group I am in. Well as I said it's a no brainer. I'm going to let those experienced guys (in both groups) have at the swoop lanes before I ever thing about entering the swoop pattern.

But ...

Let's say I am immediately following this 8-way and for some bizarre reason we all plan on pulling at the same altitude (not likely but possible), I could still give than 8-way 10 seconds seperation out of the door and be opening simulateously as they are (haven't your ever watched the groups open on jump run ... it's not uncommon for freefliers to be opening at the same time if not before the belly fliers). In this case guess who's closer to the landing area and has a better shot at being first down? But if they plan on taking it lower then me, then once again I'll let them have first shot at the landing area.

Once again it's all about knowing who's on the load, what kind of jump they are doing, where they plan on opening and what they want to do under canopy. Know this before the airplane even takes off, have a plan and the adjust the plan based on what actually happens in the air. There are no guarantees that everything will go off as planned, but it's still better than the chaos of not communicating.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[kelpdiver 2]

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What do crosswinds and AFF courses have to do with very experienced jumpers swooping through traffic?

I'm sorry you lost the picture (from the movie "Pushing Tin")

I missed something. What is the knee-jerk proposal that you're objecting to? The total banning of 270s and beyond. Apparently not segmented landing zones. Where did crosswinds enter that? I did surrender on the longer of the threads - too busy at work to follow that many postings.

[L.O. 0]

why does anybody still do static line?) jumps. No reason the same things can't be learned using either method.

Dave

[chachi 0]

personally i think we should have specific canopy coaches and you should be required to spend some time with them in the progression program of A and B license.

[L.O. 0]

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personally i think we should have specific canopy coaches and you should be required to spend some time with them in the progression program of A and B license.

Very Good idea.

As long as you don't charge $100 for the class to teach them how to be safe in the air with others. Teaching people how to be safe in the air is our responsabilaty to the student and to save ourselves.

But, if you what to charge people to be safe, go ahead. Then if they want to be safe they have to pay or get out of the sport.

Another good idea

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[AFFI 0]

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If you sitting back pulling down the $$ and giving nothing back then F you flame away.

I can’t think of my people “pulling down the $’s” in this sport.


The way this sport pulls in money kind of reminds me of the drug cartel:

1) At the very top you have the drug lords (DZO), not all of em, but some rake it in.

2) Then you have the pushers/middle man (Instructors) who push and move the product mostly because they are hooked on it as well.

3) Then at the bottom you have the junkies (jumpers/students) who pay all the money for their fix, many of whom will sacrifice just about anything to get more of.


Meanwhile, back at the farm:
To the OP - sorry for misreading your post. I probably got a little agitated at first because it sounded to me that you were saying that all the instructors are mediocre - even those of us who sacrifice everything and try our best to be good teachers an mentors. On my sig line, freefall is not even one of the priorities; I spend the bulk of my training on EP’s and Canopy control. All the bad ass shit a jumper can do in the air is pretty worthless if they cannot get back in the hanger safely so they can make the next jump. I have never seen a jumper on the airplane riding to altitude with a femur stickng out.

So I agree with much of what you were saying, misunderstood some and thought you were just talking down to those out there in the teaching end of our sport trying their hardest to be quality instructors.
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[pilotdave 0]

I'm not sure I get your point, but anyway I was comparing static line to IAD, not AFF...

Dave

[BIGUN 1,050]

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They use AFP (Advanced Freefall Program), which is different than AFF. It is an 18 step program that significantly spreads out the training, and puts a lot of emphasis on canopy control.

To quote an old-timer. "Had AFP been developed before AFF, there would be no AFF"

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[RandomLemming 0]

In the UK, we are encouraged to continue to work on our canopy skills throughout or skydiving progression. Certain things (like permission to wear a full face helmet for example) depend on your ability to land in a 30 foot radius 5 jumps out of 10 .

You can't get your A license without doing your CH1 (Canopy handling 1). This focusses on riser turns, extending distance on your rear risers, etc.

At the time, I thought that this was a bit pointless as the rear risers on my canopy were a dog to hold down and the canopy was quite sluggish. Now that I'm on my own gear, I fully understand using these and how they work.

Then, when you want your B license, you have to do your CH2 (Canopy Handling 2). This introduces the use of the front risers and requires a certain level of accuracy (5 jumps out of 10 in a 30 foot radius AFAIK), as well as reinforcing what you did for CH1.

This is the only thing stopping me from getting my B... touching down within 15 feet of the arrow on a crowded load is actually very challenging for me, and I miss a lot of the time because I move a long way out to avoid people.

Later on, there is the CP1 and CP2 certifications that will further extend on what I've learned so far (not sure when they are required).

[yardhippie 0]

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personally i think we should have specific canopy coaches and you should be required to spend some time with them in the progression program of A and B license.

The more I look at it, and IMHO, every level of license, or rating should have some type of canopy requirement. Should we have to give the USPA another $25 for each one, hell no. Should we have some willing "mentor" to assist other with achieving those goals, yes. Our instructors should be the most highly trained individuals on the block, especially those that teach new jumper progression. I have met some top notch folks over the years, in fact I count myself lucky to have learned from those that I did.

I dont consider myself to have much to offer when it comes to one-on-one education of others, but I did offer, to our DZO, for anyone who wanted, I would take a day or two and work with individuals on their landing patterns, and landings, with video, for free.
I do the same when it comes to my freeflying. Ive had a lot of help over the past few years, and a little to no cost to me. I'm willing to give that back to help our sport be that much safer.

And applause to those who are suggesting LO help with not only the freefall groups but the canopy groups also. "The Plan" doesnt end until you lay your gear down on the packing mat.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865