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JACKO

PULL OUT VS. THROW OUT

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Myth no. 1: Pull-outs provide somewhat faster openings.

Myth no. 2: Pull-outs are less suitable for beginners.

Could somebody please play Mythbuster and call "confirmed" or "busted" on these?

Alphons
And five hundred entirely naked women dropped out of the sky on parachutes.
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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>Myth no. 1: Pull-outs provide somewhat faster openings.

Under normal circumstances, 90% of the time, pullouts provide faster openings. Why? Because with a throwout, you must release the PC, it must "invert" so its apex is up, and then it can start pulling out the bag. With a pullout, as soon as you clear your burble, the PC inflates and is pulled out of your hand. No waiting for arm extension/release/inversion.

It's a small effect, I would guess under half a second.

>Myth no. 2: Pull-outs are less suitable for beginners.

If a beginner is trained on a pullout OR a ripcord with a BOC handle, then they're not unsuitable, as long as they are retrained on emergency procedures (primarily lost pud.)

If a beginner is trained on a throwout, then a pullout is less suitable than a throwout.

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Thanks for the info, Bill.

With regard to the second point though, could you explain why pull-out is less suitable for beginners trained on throw-out? Is it just unwise to make the transition that early or is there more to it?
And five hundred entirely naked women dropped out of the sky on parachutes.
-- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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>could you explain why pull-out is less suitable for beginners trained on throw-out?

Because someone trained from the beginning on a throwout will be better equipped to use a throwout than a pullout. Changing deployment systems has been, historically, a problem.

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I jump a pull-out and love it. There are good about both. The whole reason I jump a pull out is you can't have a pilot chute is tow. Say you throw your pc and for some reason it does not pull the pin. What you got is bad air for your reserve pilot chute to have to go through. And its possible that it tangles with the main pc. On the other habd if you pull the pull out pud and nothing then you have what 4" of just the pud dangling in the wind. Clean air for the Reserve PC. Also you could say that the horse shoe is some what gone due to if the container is open the pc will extract the pud.

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>The whole reason I jump a pull out is you can't have a pilot chute is tow.

Well, it's harder. There have indeed been instances of PC-in-tow on pullouts; container locks still happen. Generally the trade-off is that pullouts are less likely to have PC-in-tow mals, and throwouts are less likely to get "stuck" or be hard to find.

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and I'd have to imagine that a PCIT on a pull out is either burble related hesitation, or an uncocked p/c.



It was an uncocked p/c...

(which in turn entangled with the reserve pilot chute, which took almost 3000 ft to get undone... Sometimes it's saver to do tandem video... :D
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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Pull-outs only represent 5% of the market (quoting Sandy Reid).
Bill Booth will tell you that pull-outs have a much higher malfunction rate. This is because pull-out jumpers tend to deploy with their right shoulder lower than their left shoulder. This caused a much higher incidence of broken right risers (until PIA published standards for reinforcing mini-risers, circa 1993).
Pull-outs have also been blamed for a higher incidence of line twists, again caused by deploying with right shoulder lower than left shoulder.

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Yeah. I've heard that they do change body position enough to affect opening. Luckily I don't have a high enough wing loading to be really affected by that... yet. I'll have to make good habits.
God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

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I'd like to share something about pullout packing I have learned which reduces the possibiltiy of a lost handle. When I mushroom the pc I push a
fifth of the mesh into the bottom right corner of my talon, this being the lowest 1/5th of the pc relative to the bridle. I believe that in the event of the vecro coming undone, this keeps the pud on the right side of the container rather than allowing it to float above the pin where it is harder to find.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
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15 of my 17 Wingsuit jumps are with a pull out. ;)



You can find in most of the WS manuals that you should not use pull-out with WS. :S



should not or reccomend not:S

The closest I've been to having a mal caused by my pull out was I lost the handle on a weak pull and i reached back with no effort and it was still sitting about 3 inches from where I dropped it. (and it was on a wingsuit jump, wasn't used to the webbies on Tony's new suit yet)

I've had an uncocked pilot chute pull the bag off my back with my pull out. USPA ended up with a malfunction because of the same problem.

If I remember correctly the Malfunction video done awhile back has Nancy from Jump Shack intentionally dropping the pud before pulling the pin and had an un eventful freefall reached back and pulled and didn't have a problem with it. now if your pilot chute gets disloged during any of your jumps due to moving around or exiting the aircraft, or your buddy on a funneled exit or bad dock snags it do you think you'd have the same uneventful freefall or flight? I've done sit and stand flying with mine loose and it never budged the pin....

I'm not trying to say that everyone should jump a pull out because it's is safer than a throw out, I'm saying that each has it's positive points and each has it's negative. I've jumped both with wingsuits, freeflying, my big wing camera suit, rw and doing hop and pops. I like my pull out and every rig I order will have one on it. If I jump someone elses rig that has a throw out I'm not going to worry about what to do when I jump it, just pull, throw, and enjoy the canopy ride.
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I have jumped a pull out for alota years and never had a problem with it. with a pull out I always new I had it anchored because i pulled it out far enough for it to jerk the pud out of my hand. My new rig has a BOC so it's in the same place when I reach for it.
Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

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What? Two pages and no post from Jan yet?

You should have just asked her, she has all the details.:P
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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

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Mythbuster and call "confirmed" or "busted" on these?<<<<

"Plausible"
_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

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15 of my 17 Wingsuit jumps are with a pull out. Wink



You can find in most of the WS manuals that you should not use pull-out with WS. :S



Thanks for pointing that out. Now tell us why you shouldn't.

There is nothing wrong with it provided you set your equipment up properly, just as you should do with a throw out.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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What? Two pages and no post from Jan yet?

You should have just asked her, she has all the details.:P



There is not much of a need to reply to this thread since the original post is from 2001.

The recent additions to the thread are 'enlightening' to the various 'beliefs' about a pull-out.

It does 'boggle my mind' that so many people do not understand how a pull out works and they assume all pullouts are the same.

Just in passing, the Racer pud has an 'idiot' velcro on the short bridle line that sticks to velcro on the tape that connects to the PC.
This ensures that the PC base is close to the right hand corner of the rig when packed. Then if you do get a floater, the pud is right there at the corner of the rig and not dancing wildly above the pin someplace.

Also, back when hand deploys first came out - the BIG lecture was they were not for students because it required stability.
This applied to pull outs and throw outs equally.

After AFF came along and a student's stability was enhanced by instructors, Roger thought of using a throw out for students.
He could have easily used a pull out too.

As far as I know, the only differences in the 'pull' between a pullout and throw-out are
- that your elbow is in near your body for a pull out and it is out away from your body for a throw-out.
- that the pull direction is a 'punch' for a pull out and a lateral pull out to the side for a throw out.

You have much greater strength with the punch type pull than a pull out laterally away from your body.
I think all of the non-Racer pullouts require a wrist twist to get the pud off the velcro. I never did like any of those other puds.

The names of the two systems are misnomers too.

Rob's comments about right shoulder low and line twists was too funny.
I'm sorry, but when the myths get as ludicrous as breathing by absorbing O2 through the skin, I just have to laugh.

If anyone still wants more info, please see
Deployment Initiators

But what do I know?
I've only been jumping a pullout since 1981.

.
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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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Jan, the Infinity pullout also has the velcro addition at the base of the PC. I ahve never felt the act of deploying with my pull out to be different than throw outs I've jumped.

Almost 4000 jumps with a pullout
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I've jumped both systems for sometime on each. Because of that experience I've listened to the pull/throw out debate for years and giggled.

The main point is to understand what you're jumping. And yes, it's probably important to stick with one. As for the differences I've noticed in my deployments? Nothing, flat out nothing. I've long been a believer that as long as you can get a 'clean' deployment on whatever you're almost there.
"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

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Thanks for pointing that out. Now tell us why you shouldn't.

There is nothing wrong with it provided you set your equipment up properly, just as you should do with a throw out.



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There's a good chance that your wing's burble would prevent the pullout from getting clean air.



Or if you need longer explanation just search WS forum with "pull out" keywords.

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I'm not trying to say I can beat the odds but that the odds have not caught up to me yet. As diablopilot stated, if you set your system up right, what's the big deal? Does any manual go into specifics of why you should not use a pull out with a wing suit, or does it take the neanderthal approach and basically state "Me no like pull outs, you no use with my system or you die" :S
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