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heltzer

Cypress failure

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You won't be able to get anyone to change their mind based on empirical evidence.

Watching a save in person (especially if the save is of a respected, experienced jumper), where you are yelling into the air, "PULL", now that may in fact change their mind.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
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I'm just saying that you won't likely change their mind based on data, of course watching such a save would hopefully not happen, but if it does, it is effective. I watched a student saved by an old Sentinel when he did nothing but watch a streamering T-10. It was an emotional experience.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Is there any imperical evidence showing the failure rate--including mis-fires--of the Cypress AAD?

I am looking for the rebuttal to the person who believes they are not reliable and/or are dangerous. Something quantitative.

Thanks!

Lawrence



Larry,

Tell the guy, or gal, he/she is a fucking moron and let it go at that.B|

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Get her to have a look at the Airtec Website (http://www.cypres.cc), specifically the sections on background, reliability and history. Be sure to point out the bits where it says about the number of CYPRES saves since it was created, the sheer amount of money that went into research for it (I think over $800,000 over a space of four years???), and the fact that a CYPRES unit has never failed to fire when the speed/altitude conditions were met.
Also have a look at this list of documented CYPRES saves since 1991 (http://www.cypres-usa.com/saves05b.pdf) - be sure to remind her that Airtec could keep really accurate records of misfires until the field-replacable cutter, I know of two (simultaneous!) saves at my home DZ that aren't on that list, so there'll probably be more (how many is a mystery, though)
As to mis-fires, let her read all of http://www.afn.org/skydive/equip/announce/cypres-misfire.html. If you read all of it, (especially the section about the 8-way video-man) you'll come to the conclusion that many of the 'mis-fires' you'll read about are inaccurate.
Hope this helps!



Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)

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and the fact that a CYPRES unit has never failed to fire when the speed/altitude conditions were met.



Not true...Add "MAINTAINED correctly" and I think you are right. But I know of two cases where a CYPRES didn't work when both speed and altitude were met. Both were not maintained correctly.

A modern AAD is a good device to ADD to your already current and diligent training.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Larry -

All I can say is 1) I've never personally heard of a Cypres misfiring (although I know it has happened.) 2) I PERSONALLY know 2 people (one of which you probably know) that have been saved from CERTAIN DEATH by their Cypreses. One experienced what he thought was a double-mal and subsequently gave up trying, and the other was a case of temporary paralysis due to a freefall collision.

Terry
There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

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I know of two cases where a CYPRES didn't work when both speed and altitude were met. Both were not maintained correctly.



I stand corrected. :$ Silly of me to neglect that bit, really! :S
Although I'd be interested to know exactly what happened in both of these incidents, ie. in what way were the units not maintained, and was the result a no fire or a late fire? Please PM me if you don't want to/think it's not appropriate to post that here.
Many thanks for the correction!



Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)

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First -I completely and totally have faith in a cypres, but one interesting failure I saw -
Tandem Cypres was turned on on the ground and was checked by the TM. In the plane he got a gear check and the cypres was checked again, but it now turned off. The TM and the passenger rode the plane back down. On the ground the rig was taken off, the cypres turned back on, TM and passenger went back to altitude, during gear check same thing, no cypres.

The rigger pulled the unit out on the ground, it was within 4-year, and life time, and the batteries were less than 1 year old and showed max voltage. It would operate fine on the ground. Ended up, the cypres had a microscopic crack in the unit, and when the rig was put on, it put a "correct" perssure on the unit to short-circut it and shut it down. The unit was replaced.

That being said, it is a one in ten-thousand possibility that it would happen again, but it is a "failure." I'll still take my chances w/ an AAD
______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

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I am not worried at all about my AAD not firing when it should, after all, I won't be around to worry about it afterwards. I am more worried about it firing when it should not.
Having seen personally so many jumps where it did not fire, it means I am happy to use it. I have seen at least 2 saves live, so I think if I am stupid, it might help.

What I am trying say is priorities.
1. Is it safe to use.

If it is....
2. Can it be useful.
Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

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Although I'd be interested to know exactly what happened in both of these incidents,



Here is one...And it hints to the one with dead batteries, but I'll be damned if I can find it right now.
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Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
2/9/2000 Train in Spain, Spain NOP,BIZ 31 2000 Y/?
Description: Initial reports indicate he blacked out during a skysurfing jump, and had no handles pulled at impact. He was using his own rig, with the CYPRES switched on. It is likely he "redded-out" due to high G's during a skysurfing spin. He was reported to impact while in a very fast flat spin. One foot was found out of the binding, though this may have been due to impact. It is unclear if he cutaway the board at any time. He was very current, and was a regular skysurfing competitor. He had been experimenting with alternative angle placements of his back foot, in particular, with it facing outwards rather than foreward.
Lessons:This is the first CYPRES failure (false negative) of which I am aware, save one when the batteries were past being due to be changed. Further examination of the unit may provide other information. One theory is that he managed to spin on his side fast enough to generate enough lift to be falling slow enough to be below minimum CYPRES firing speeds; this seems somewhat improbable, though.




Some others for you:
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Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
7/29/2001 Albstadt EDSA, Germany NOP?,SUI?,MED? 50 950 Y/?
Description: This was this skydivers 4th jump of a day, a solo skydive. No canopies were deployed and the CYPRES did not fire. It is unclear why this incident occurred.
Lessons:More info appreciated.
Fallschirmsportverband Description: - it was his 4th jump of the day
- no main canopy deployed but cutaway and reserve were pulled
- Cypres fired, but reserve loop uncut
- fatal injuries from impact
- pilotchute, reserve and freebag where lying next to the body, pilot chute was still in the pocket
- why was Main not deployed?
- cutaway was probably pulled to low (under 80m) and reserve was deployed
- AAD was probably adjusted wrong => fired after Reserve was deployed

It is reported that AirTec investigated the AAD so it is therefore assumed that it was a Cypres.
Fallschirmsportverband Conclusions:



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Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
12/31/2001 Eslöv, Sweden NOP 24 18 Y/Y
Description: After doing a stable exit and a few good 360-turns, this student tried to deploy his main at the normal altitude. When doing this, the student became unstable. He was observed falling on his back almost all the way until impact. The CYPRES activated, but for reasons unknown the reserve didn't have time to fully inflate. The time of impact is estimated to about the same time as reserve line stretch.
Lessons:An AAD is good insurance, but does not guarantee a good parachute will be deployed. It is every skydivers responsibility to deploy their own parachute in a timely fashion.



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Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
3/10/2002 Skydive Citrusdal, South Africa NOP 26 Y/Y
Description: Apparently, she imapcted with no handles pulled, and a CYPRES AAD on the rig. More information appreciated.
Lessons:




Still all in all its better than not having one.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron,

A skysurfer went in in 2000? Do you know any details other than those in the clip you posted? How much skysurfing experience he had? Who the guy was?

The reason I ask is that all the top skysurfers who've died have done so while not skysurfing. I don't include Loftus as a "skysurfing fatality" since he was doing a special stunt at the time.) So that report could be a first.

Thanks for the research!

Lawrence

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His name was Chris Gauge and he was reported to have 2000 jumps.

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I don't include Loftus as a "skysurfing fatality" since he was doing a special stunt at the time



Loftis died at Quincy in 98 on a regular skysurf jump when he had a bag lock.

You might be thinking about....man his name escapes me....He died filming a Mountain Dew comercial in like 95....Rob Harris.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I was under the impression that Loftus experienced the mal while holding a waterskiing tow rope. If so, then that's not a "regular" skysurfing jump.

And Harris died in Dec 1995 shooting that commerical, but he wasn't skysurfing at the time.

Man, Ron, to recall all those folks...you've been around the block a few times!

Lawrence

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You won't be able to get anyone to change their mind based on empirical evidence.



No truer words have I heard today. There will always be people that believe it's safer to NOT wear a seatbelt, or that wearing a seatbelt gives you an excuse to drive recklessly, or that an airbag is safer technology than a seatbelt, or even that one brand of seatbelt is completely reliable and another brand is sure death. People usually do what they feel is right, rather than taking an objective look at the facts, and often that is to their detriment.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

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One theory is that he managed to spin on his side fast enough to generate enough lift to be falling slow enough to be below minimum CYPRES firing speeds; this seems somewhat improbable, though.


I remember this happening and the thought about the spin slowing him down but never heard it confirmed. Anyone have any more info on this one?

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I was under the impression that Loftus experienced the mal while holding a waterskiing tow rope. If so, then that's not a "regular" skysurfing jump.



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Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
8/14/1998 Quincy, IL MAL 29 3200 Y/?
Description: The deceased experienced a pilot-chute-in-tow (or perhaps bag-lock) malfunction on a skysurfing jump. He jettisoned the board, but pulled the reserve too low for inflation. He died immediately on impact with the runway. Though the deceased had a CYPRES, it appears to have been turned off on this jump. The reserve pin was pulled, and the loop not cut. He was heard to remark to someone on the previous jump that he had forgotten to turn his CYPRES on. The batteries were replaced within the previous 10 days.
Lessons:Skysurfing, though becoming relatively common, is still a skydive with a significant extra workload. This jumper was a world-class competitor, so this should serve a s a good reminder to be diligent about openning high on surf jumps, as well as to practice your emergency procedures regularly.
Name Jerry Loftis



I was not there, but I was told it was a regular skysurf jump and he pulled a little low. It started a debate on if you should cut the board away during a mal....That debate really never ended to my knowledge (But I have never done a skysurf jump...nor do I really care to to be honest, so I didn't pay THAT close of attention).

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Man, Ron, to recall all those folks...you've been around the block a few times!



I would not call it "around the block";)
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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> Tandem Cypres was turned on on the ground and was checked by the
>TM. In the plane he got a gear check and the cypres was checked again,
> but it now turned off.

It should be noted that a cypres constantly self-tests itself, and if it finds an error it can turn itself off to avoid a misfire. (Bryan Burke has seen this.) So it's quite possible that you could have your cypres pass its ground self-test, detect an error once you got in the plane (temperature or pressure changed, or you knocked your rig against something, or you zapped it or whatever) and have it turn off. Also means that if someone goes in, and their cypres appears off, it may have turned itself off during the plane ride or freefall due to a detected error.

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First, let me be honest and upfront, I am a Vigil jumper.

I was helping the staff at Skydive Moab do gear checks at registration for the MOAB boogie when we came across a Cypres that the jumper reported had spontaneously turned on a day or two before and had not turned itself off since. We tried to cycle the power so that we coudl force the unit to self-test (ie at start up), but the unit would not power down. My literature from Airtech says that the unit is supposed to reguarly self-test itself and shut down in the presence fo an error, but obviously this unit didn't.

So, despite most peoples' perceptions, the Cypres is not bullet-proof. Having said that, I feel that the unit functions at a level beyond what most people consider reasonably safe.

-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

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I didn't know a cypres could do that. Just out of curiosity, will it power-up normally the next time? If it does, isn't that a MAJOR concern. You might have never had a working unit.

The reason we came to that conclusion is that one it did it more than once, and two by manipulating the wires and putting pressure on the unit, the rigger was able to get the unit to shut off. SSK found the crack.

Thanks for the info.

Dave
______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

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and the fact that a CYPRES unit has never failed to fire when the speed/altitude conditions were met.



They have failed. You need to add "Battery and Maintenace" to your list.

Edit: Sorry - I see others picked up on this too. Didn't mean to flog the dead horse...

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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On 10/14/2004 at 7:00 PM, Ron said:

 


Not true...Add "MAINTAINED correctly" and I think you are right. But I know of two cases where a CYPRES didn't work when both speed and altitude were met. Both were not maintained correctly.

A modern AAD is a good device to ADD to your already current and diligent training.

 

 

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

 

Hello !

Can you please list the 2 cases, when that happened, that didn´t work by not maintained correctly?

Just to learn about... 

 

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