kallend 1,620 #51 April 26, 2007 Quoteand rather than do the effective method (the one that costs money) the solution is remove the problem and focus the business on the "other 80%" Since the "problem" is one that has killed a bunch of people in the last few months, that is fine with me. Quote Clubs put members first, profit second. In Business the process is reversed.. except the jumpers are even farther away from first priority.... Having been in one canopy collision at 100' agl, I like a place that puts landing safety (my well being) first. I don't see any priority of your fun over my life.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #52 April 26, 2007 Quoteits not like SDAZ doesnt have the land (or the money) for the most effective solution (separate landing areas) they just dont have the desire or the will to do so... *** It's pretty easy to tell other people what they should do with thier money. I bet they would build a seperate landing area if you agreed to pay for it and maintain it. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #53 April 26, 2007 QuoteI bet they would build a seperate landing area Last time I looked Eloy had two separate landing areas. But for whatever reason, 95% of the people jumping there insist on landing in the north field regardless of the type of canopy they fly and their approach style. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mirage62 0 #54 April 26, 2007 You know I appreciate the post commenting about all the hot shit talent leaving Eloy, and the reply that so far none has. H.P. landing aren’t the dominant force in skydiving, it never will be IMO because of the death and injury rate during the learning curve. Too many low timers see or hear about someone getting hurt or killed and decide not to move into that discipline. H.P. landings does have its place but not at the expense of others – perceived or real and that seems to be hard for some of the posters to understand. It may not be fair, and education is good but many of the 80% skydivers DO worry about a swooper running into them. Then you get “I’m more worried about the non-swooper with the big canopy running into me….” Well that’s good but 80% vrs 20%, the numbers don’t add up. As I mention a few weeks ago the “herd” is moving and the swoopers who want to belittle others, whine about the “witch hunt” need to get there head out of there asses. It’s not going to help your cause by insulting others. It’s a numbers game and your numbers are waaaay low. Last weekend at the 150 ways I didn’t see any H.P. landings. There IS a time and a place for everything but that wasn’t the weekend for it. If HALF the stuff I read is true about how BAD Eloy will suffer because of there landing policy then a destination dz will open and cater to H.P. landings.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #55 April 26, 2007 QuoteLast time I looked Eloy had two separate landing areas Eloy has had 3 grass landing areas since September 2006. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #56 April 26, 2007 QuoteQuoteand rather than do the effective method (the one that costs money) the solution is remove the problem and focus the business on the "other 80%" Since the "problem" is one that has killed a bunch of people in the last few months, that is fine with me. Quote Clubs put members first, profit second. In Business the process is reversed.. except the jumpers are even farther away from first priority.... Having been in one canopy collision at 100' agl, I like a place that puts landing safety (my well being) first. I don't see any priority of your fun over my life. Kallend, as someone who's always interested in proving statistics and trends, I find it interesting that you conveniently ignore the last few years showing over 50% of the fatalities were non-swoopers. Any particular reason for this?Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #57 April 26, 2007 Quote You know I appreciate the post commenting about all the hot shit talent leaving Eloy, and the reply that so far none has. H.P. landing aren’t the dominant force in skydiving, it never will be IMO because of the death and injury rate during the learning curve. Too many low timers see or hear about someone getting hurt or killed and decide not to move into that discipline. Try training people to become skydiviers and see just how much low time skydivers "don't want to swoop".---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 185 #58 April 26, 2007 Kallend, as someone who's always interested in proving statistics and trends, I find it interesting that you conveniently ignore the last few years showing over 50% of the fatalities were non-swoopers. Any particular reason for this? Ooh, I can answer this one! Let's see, I see like one swoop out of twenty landings overall. If the 5% of landings that qualify as "swoop" are related to 50% of the collision fatalities, swoopers have an 1,800% greater likelihood of being in a fatal collision on any given jump. 270s or greater have no place in the pattern. End of story. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #53 April 26, 2007 QuoteI bet they would build a seperate landing area Last time I looked Eloy had two separate landing areas. But for whatever reason, 95% of the people jumping there insist on landing in the north field regardless of the type of canopy they fly and their approach style. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #54 April 26, 2007 You know I appreciate the post commenting about all the hot shit talent leaving Eloy, and the reply that so far none has. H.P. landing aren’t the dominant force in skydiving, it never will be IMO because of the death and injury rate during the learning curve. Too many low timers see or hear about someone getting hurt or killed and decide not to move into that discipline. H.P. landings does have its place but not at the expense of others – perceived or real and that seems to be hard for some of the posters to understand. It may not be fair, and education is good but many of the 80% skydivers DO worry about a swooper running into them. Then you get “I’m more worried about the non-swooper with the big canopy running into me….” Well that’s good but 80% vrs 20%, the numbers don’t add up. As I mention a few weeks ago the “herd” is moving and the swoopers who want to belittle others, whine about the “witch hunt” need to get there head out of there asses. It’s not going to help your cause by insulting others. It’s a numbers game and your numbers are waaaay low. Last weekend at the 150 ways I didn’t see any H.P. landings. There IS a time and a place for everything but that wasn’t the weekend for it. If HALF the stuff I read is true about how BAD Eloy will suffer because of there landing policy then a destination dz will open and cater to H.P. landings.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #55 April 26, 2007 QuoteLast time I looked Eloy had two separate landing areas Eloy has had 3 grass landing areas since September 2006. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #56 April 26, 2007 QuoteQuoteand rather than do the effective method (the one that costs money) the solution is remove the problem and focus the business on the "other 80%" Since the "problem" is one that has killed a bunch of people in the last few months, that is fine with me. Quote Clubs put members first, profit second. In Business the process is reversed.. except the jumpers are even farther away from first priority.... Having been in one canopy collision at 100' agl, I like a place that puts landing safety (my well being) first. I don't see any priority of your fun over my life. Kallend, as someone who's always interested in proving statistics and trends, I find it interesting that you conveniently ignore the last few years showing over 50% of the fatalities were non-swoopers. Any particular reason for this?Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #57 April 26, 2007 Quote You know I appreciate the post commenting about all the hot shit talent leaving Eloy, and the reply that so far none has. H.P. landing aren’t the dominant force in skydiving, it never will be IMO because of the death and injury rate during the learning curve. Too many low timers see or hear about someone getting hurt or killed and decide not to move into that discipline. Try training people to become skydiviers and see just how much low time skydivers "don't want to swoop".---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 185 #58 April 26, 2007 Kallend, as someone who's always interested in proving statistics and trends, I find it interesting that you conveniently ignore the last few years showing over 50% of the fatalities were non-swoopers. Any particular reason for this? Ooh, I can answer this one! Let's see, I see like one swoop out of twenty landings overall. If the 5% of landings that qualify as "swoop" are related to 50% of the collision fatalities, swoopers have an 1,800% greater likelihood of being in a fatal collision on any given jump. 270s or greater have no place in the pattern. End of story. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #59 April 26, 2007 Quote Try training people to become skydiviers and see just how much low time skydivers "don't want to swoop". Sorry Jp but been there done that, not to your level. Students mimic there teachers a lot's of times. If they see YOU swooping than it gain status....and since they see you do it correct that's good. We have no big time swooper TEACHING at our small dz and students rarely run off to start swoopingKevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #60 April 26, 2007 Quote Let's see, I see like one swoop out of twenty landings overall. And at my old home dz it's the opposite. Almost everyone except students are doing at least 90+ Quote Let's see, I see like one swoop out of twenty landings overall. If the 5% of landings that qualify as "swoop" are related to 50% of the collision fatalities, swoopers have an 1,800% greater likelihood of being in a fatal collision on any given jump. Your example, while interesting, still has no bearing on the fact that over 50% of the fatals were between NON swoopers. Of the swooper fatalities MOST were between 2 swoopers. If you remember, this uproar was because of a 'swooper' hitting a non-swooper. My question was, and still is, why people continue to ignore that seperate landing areas wouldn't have solved the majority of the fatalities over the last 4 years? Now, as usual, a bunch of you will read this as me supporting turns in a landing pattern or other nonsense. I don't, so try and keep your eye on the ball when you reply. Honestly I think it's largely because of those who share the 'end of story' mentality. It's your responsibility too, regardless of what turn you do or don't do. Quote 270s or greater have no place in the pattern. End of story. Gee that's nice - I never said they were Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #61 April 26, 2007 Quote I don't see any priority of your fun over my life. *** Hey there Doc, I kinda like it!....What do ya say we get some helmet stickers made?! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raymond_jones 0 #62 April 26, 2007 let's not be hasty now. it's still april and there are quite a few months left in this year. the stastics may change quite a bit.looking at my chinese calander this is the year of the tandem!!!!!!!"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #63 April 26, 2007 Quote let's not be hasty now. it's still april and there are quite a few months left in this year. the stastics may change quite a bit.looking at my chinese calander this is the year of the tandem!!!!!!! Absolutely but the sample I took did start in 2004 and was worldwide. Still, hope your chinese calendar is wrong Blues! IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,620 #64 April 26, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteand rather than do the effective method (the one that costs money) the solution is remove the problem and focus the business on the "other 80%" Since the "problem" is one that has killed a bunch of people in the last few months, that is fine with me. Quote Clubs put members first, profit second. In Business the process is reversed.. except the jumpers are even farther away from first priority.... Having been in one canopy collision at 100' agl, I like a place that puts landing safety (my well being) first. I don't see any priority of your fun over my life. Kallend, as someone who's always interested in proving statistics and trends, I find it interesting that you conveniently ignore the last few years showing over 50% of the fatalities were non-swoopers. Any particular reason for this? Think!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #65 April 26, 2007 At my DZ I'd estimate that 50% of those with over 500 jumps are doing at least a 90. Many of the most experienced are doing 270s. Note: we have separate student and intermediate (<500 jumps) landing areas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skykittykat 0 #66 April 27, 2007 QuoteLast time I looked Eloy had two separate landing areas. But for whatever reason, 95% of the people jumping there insist on landing in the north field regardless of the type of canopy they fly and their approach style. Egos... That is the reason. When Todd Hawkins had his canopy collision during the Arizona Challenge that was basically caused by the majority of the jumpers having a form of tunnel vision to land in the main landing area regardless of the space around it to land safely. For the first couple of jumps after that, everyone landed well apart, but normality returned and 90+ people tried to land in the main landing area after each jump. These people were all supposed to be the "best" skydivers around as to be invited onto the Challenge means that you are a kick ass RW (usually 4-way or 8-way) skydiver. Personally I felt that all these "top" skydivers were not setting the best example by vying for a landing spot in the main landing area (due to their either showing off or not wanting to walk from the alternate landing area) and neglecting safety under canopy. Liz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #67 April 27, 2007 And so since the standard for bigways are seperate and designated landing areas, why is it acceptable for a DZ to allow the same number of jumpers to land where ever they want when they are NOT on the same skydive?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #68 April 27, 2007 i think if their was a tram that picked people up from the alternates more people would use them, i personally prefer to land in the alternate (except when the millitary is jumping. lz rules seem not to be their priority) but it does become very exhusting to walk all they way back to the packing area especially when its 115 out and have to walk with a jumpsuit on and carrying gear. from the interview on skydive radio, b burke did say that 270s and bigger are allowed on the lz by the wind tunnel at any time. if their was a tram out there to bring people back i think all those wanting to swoop would move out that way.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #69 April 28, 2007 Quote i think if their was a tram that picked people up from the alternates more people would use them, i personally prefer to land in the alternate (except when the millitary is jumping. lz rules seem not to be their priority) but it does become very exhusting to walk all they way back to the packing area especially when its 115 out and have to walk with a jumpsuit on and carrying gear. from the interview on skydive radio, b burke did say that 270s and bigger are allowed on the lz by the wind tunnel at any time. if their was a tram out there to bring people back i think all those wanting to swoop would move out that way. Sorry to be an ass, but are you that lazy??? A short walk in the name of clear airspace??? I have about 75 jumps at Eloy, maybe more... About 50/50 per landing area... I have never found the walk from the alternate to be that bad. In fact, with friends - it is a time to joke and debrief. Alone it is time to reflect on the dive before the debrief. (Yes, I have done training camps with 20 minute turns and still landed in the alternate).... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #70 April 28, 2007 Quote Quote i think if their was a tram that picked people up from the alternates more people would use them, i personally prefer to land in the alternate (except when the millitary is jumping. lz rules seem not to be their priority) but it does become very exhusting to walk all they way back to the packing area especially when its 115 out and have to walk with a jumpsuit on and carrying gear. from the interview on skydive radio, b burke did say that 270s and bigger are allowed on the lz by the wind tunnel at any time. if their was a tram out there to bring people back i think all those wanting to swoop would move out that way. Sorry to be an ass, but are you that lazy??? A short walk in the name of clear airspace??? I have about 75 jumps at Eloy, maybe more... About 50/50 per landing area... I have never found the walk from the alternate to be that bad. In fact, with friends - it is a time to joke and debrief. Alone it is time to reflect on the dive before the debrief. (Yes, I have done training camps with 20 minute turns and still landed in the alternate).... if you read my post you will see that i said i land in the alternate alot. just with one exception, i was talking about a lot of others out there. i have around 100 jumps in eloy and 90% of my landings have been in the alternate.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #71 April 28, 2007 Quote I was just in Eloy and will be back there again in a few weeks. I didn't notice this exodus that you claim. There are a few unhappy people but by no means is there anything near an exodus of any sort, in fact, no one has left since this implementation. the exodus has been going on for about 3 years...there are ALOT of people who are no longer locals for a variety of reasons.. mostly to do with management decisions like this. Why deal with it when you are in 'high demand' elsewhere? As much as I (used to) love the place, it is far from the only large professional dropzone in the world... what do you think all the currently competitive swoopers are going to do when they get their ass handed to them by those at other dropzones who CAN practice their discipline daily without jumping thru excessive hoops?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrabGrass 0 #72 April 28, 2007 Quote what do you think all the currently competitive swoopers are going to do when they get their ass handed to them by those at other dropzones who CAN practice their discipline daily without jumping thru excessive hoops? *** Either put up with the 'excessive hoops', or go to another DZ until their policy changes. Either way I don't think it's all that great of a market share to put the OTHER 90% or so, of us at risk, and it seems SDAZ feels that same way.It's a business, all about the numbers and profit... 'Ash Dives' tend to decrease the profit in more ways than one. ~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #73 April 28, 2007 Quotewithout jumping thru excessive hoops? Do you consider making arrangements at manifest a hoop? Again, what facts do you base these so called hoops on? For a DZ that in effect turns into a small to medium sized airport at times, the policy spells it out clearly when you can and cannot do certain things. For the record, I am not saying these things to be augmentative or confrontational. However, the erroneous perception you and a few others are perpetuating on the internet about how things are at SDA since the implimentation are not only erroneous, they are far from the ground truth of what is happening there. I say this because I have been there very recently and there is also the written statements from Brian Burke as well as his interview on skydive radio where he discusses this issue in depth. Again, I think some people are only hearing the parts they want to hear and are ignoring the truth of the matter. Again, this 3 year exodus you speak of I find to also be erroneous of the actual ground truth.People come and go on any DZ, especially when they are employees who are held to standards commonly encountered in the work force. People who have a hard time following rules, be it an employee or a customer, will undoubtedly always have a problem with following any managements policies and either choose to leave or be asked to leave. Any business that has rules and standards, and enforces them to try and keep the customer safe will have a few disgruntled people from time to time. If it means one less person is hurt or that I have to watch one less person die then it is worth it. People either get it or don't get it. Personally, I am glad that those who don't get it choose to go elsewhere as it means the sky is safer for those who do get it. I find it hard to let this "the sky is falling" myth to be perpetuated when the truth is the only thing falling is a lot of skydivers out of airplanes."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #74 April 29, 2007 QuoteQuotewithout jumping thru excessive hoops? Do you consider making arrangements at manifest a hoop? how many swoops a day do you think the pro's at Eloy were averaging before this policy? how many are they averaging now? Why would someone who's focus is canopy piloting and swooping stay at a place that significantly lowered the amount of practice time they have available by general policy? just doesnt make sense if you want to remain competitive... sure, its a small portion of the market, but it means in time you will have fewer of the "top tier" of canopy pilots (at least in relation to swooping) in residence. Which also means Eloy will no longer be a 'destination' for those who want to learn from the 'top tier'.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampThing 0 #75 April 29, 2007 QuoteWhich also means Eloy will no longer be a 'destination' for those who want to learn from the 'top tier'. But will be a destination for those that want a DZ that address safety as priority one. From a business standpoint, the choice is obvious. From a safety standpoint, the choice is obvious. From a competitive swoopers standpoint, it is the way of natural selection...that section of the herd can adapt, move to greener pastures or die out. The needs of the many overshadow the wants of the few. The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!" The Optimist says: "Sure it can!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)