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rhys

Jumper numbers in a C172 Reims FR172J!

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I have searched and asked but i need some help please.

We have just purchased an aircraft described in the title.

I have been in a C172 with two tandems before, C172's and C182's are usually 4 seater aircraft.

All Cessna DZ's's I have been to have put 5 jumpers in the 182's and 4 jumpers in 172.

From my understanding it is all about weight and balance.

Skydiving is new here in Tanzania and we are breaking ground by setting up here. I am in the process of getting permission to put 4 jumpers in our grunty little 172 The TCAA will be happy to let us if we can prove that it is legal elsewhere.

Is there any Plane buffs out there that can help me here please, cough cough diverdriver cough cough,

I am one of the instructors and I only weigh 71 kg and Leigh is the camera girl and she only weighs 50kg. We have heaps of room to play with and if we can get the 4 pax + pilot on board our fun jumps will increase by a significant amount! and we will be able to do 2 tandems at a time when no-one gets camera.(which is not that often :ph34r:)

Such a waste of space at the mo. we can only have 3 jumpers in the 230hp C182 we are using because it is considered a 4 seater aircraft!!!!

Insurance is no problem just getting proof that is is legal to take 4 jumpers in a 172 anywhere else in the world is holding us back.

then we are away!

any help or referrals will be kindly appreciated.

Thanks,

Rhys
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Four jumpers plus pilot in a 172 doesn't sound very reasonable to me.

I had my manual for a 1978 Cessna 172N sitting alongside my desk. Your numbers are probably a bit different, but not by a whole lot. Looking at total weight only, and not the balance component...

The maximum gross weight for my C-172N is 2330 pounds (1057 kg)

The maximum useful load is listed as 907 pounds, (411 kg) including fuel. I'm guessing a stripped down airplane probably has a slightly higher max gross weight, but you won't gain much.

If you carry 10 gallons in each wing, or 20 gallons of total usable fuel (20x6 pounds) you will have 120 pounds of fuel (54 kg).

That leaves just 787 pounds for the pilot, jumpers and all gear (357 kg)

Conventional rigs weigh around 25-30 pounds (11-14kg). Tandems are probably in the 50 pound range (23 kg).

If the jumpers with gear each weigh an average of 200 pounds (91 kg), and the pilot is a lightweight at just 175 pounds (79 kg) with his pilot rig, your total load with three jumpers will be 775 pounds (351 kg), and would put you just inside the maximum gross weight range. Adding a fourth jumper would bring you to 975 pounds (442 kg), and put you way overweight.

You may be able to fudge a bit, but not by much. You also need to consider takeoff and climb performance at those load levels, and the way the airplane is loaded to manage weight and balance.

It sounds like your plan is stretching things, and even three jumpers with gear may put you overweight unless you track weights very carefully.

A 182 gives you a bit more useful load, but I know they are at the edge with four jumpers, and actually often overloaded at that level, so five jumpers would probably be overweight in a conventional C-182.

Here in the United States most of our 182's are loaded with four jumpers and the pilot, and there are plenty of accidents where the NTSB has computed the weight and balance as being out of range.

I'd suggest you figure out which airplane you will be using and compute an exact weight and balance for that serial number, and figure a range of students and staff that you can actually accommodate. It's really close, which means whatever you do will be at the edge of the operating envelope.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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I have been jammed in a C-172 with four sport jumpers and the door off, but it was a dog and climbed very poorly. I could not imagine two tandem pairs in a C-172. I have also, on a number of occasions, been inside a C-182 (straight tail) with five jumpers and it was not pretty. The few times I was in a plane at that capacity there was always at least one jumper getting out low. I have never been to full altitude in a C-182 jammed with five jumpers and a pilot.

Chuck

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Back in the '60's there were a number of C-170's (yea, I know not C-172) that hauled 4 jumpers all of the time here in the great Northwest.

The Issaquah C-170 had most everything taken out; most any instrument not needed for local flight, the battery (no electics, prop start), etc, etc. It was a full-on effort to reduce weight and fuel useage.

Jerry

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thanks for those statistics,

we used to jump 5 jumpers from 12000' in a modified wide body 182 with normally aspirated 206 engine fitted. No problem!


I am not trying to be unsafe or greedy. I am not making the profit. I just want to things correctly and efficiently. Our little reims rocket 172 has a 210 hp Rolls Royce built injected continental engine. in the flight manual it has specification for flight at 15000' with cruise performance charts etc for that level.


Performance specs straight from the manual.

maximum gross weight = 2500 lbs
service ceiling = 17500'!!!
empty weight (approx) = 1410
wing loading 14.3 lbs/sq ft

engine (Rolls Royce manufatured) continental injected 210hp rated at 2800 rpm

It performs/climbs better than the 230 hp 182 and it has the same room on the inside give or take a couple of centimetres.

I weigh 71 kg our new instructor weighs 73 kg and the camera gal weighs 50 kg. we are all small people! The pilot is about 80 kg but I don't know for sure.

All I need to know is that the plane is not restricted to 3 passengers + pilot but restricted to its weight and balance requirements.

I need documentation to prove that.

If it is legal to take only 4 jumpers in a 182 that is enough proof, they only have 4 seats also.

I need to prove this to the TCAA.

we only jump fro 9000'agl Flight level 110

Thanks for all the time and input.

Rhys
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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You could always argue that with the seats removed the aircraft is in "freight configuration". Technically the seats are berths. The aircraft limits are defined by weight and balance. Take out the seats and draw yellow lines on the floor for the "berths". Since you are all known weights, there are only two variables for one tandem pax or two tandem pax. Ask your pilot to plot the maximum load limits for both.

We used a Reims 172 but only with 1+3 at 5,000' AMSL and 30 degrees C. The plane has balls but I wouldn't bet on it stopping before the fence with an engine hesitation and 1+4. At 2,000' AMSL you might get away with it.
Rob-By
Check it out at http://www.skydive.co.zw Clicky!

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Also known as the Reims Rocket, this aircraft is not your everyday grunty little Cessna 172. You'll know when you hear it fire up - the Rolls-Royce built fuel injected Continental IO-360D puts out 210 hp and makes a distinctive sound. With 4 old time (PCs and front mounted reserves) skydivers on board, this machine would haul ass to 13 grand in 15 minutes or so. This was at the old Grindale dropzone at Bridlington in 1973

The skill of your pilots and your field elevation will be two important factors in your aircraft's performance. We had a superb pilot (Peter Frazer) and the field elevation was near sea level.

Good Luck!

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Wow!
230 horsepower!
I thought most Rheims Rockets (and Hawk XPs) only had 180 hp - up from the 150 horsepower in stock Cessna 172s.
I have jumped at several DZs that routinely put four skydivers in Rheims Rockets (and Hawk XPs) they climbed fine to 7,200 feet, back when 7,200 feet was a fashionable jump altitude.
The exact number of seats is an accountant's game. Engineers (and good pilots) are more concerned with weight and balance.
Perhaps you should ask Hooker Harness about legally installing extra seat belts to legally allow you to carry more jumpers.

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I weigh 71 kg our new instructor weighs 73 kg and the camera gal weighs 50 kg. we are all small people! The pilot is about 80 kg but I don't know for sure.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Is your camera girl cute?

I hate to put her out of business, but you might want to consider hand-mounted video. That will allow you to fly with two tandems and two videos on every load.

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I am only a jumper, but STOL kits and wing extensions must affect the rating....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We have wing tip extensions on part of our fleet of Cessnas. W have not noticed much difference in rate of climb - when we extended wing tips on our old, narrow-body Cessna 182s.
However, the boss is now mumbling about extending the wing tips on all of our narrow-body Cessna 182s, solely to make them legal (when carrying four jumpers plus a pilot) in the eyes of Transport Canada.

Wing tip extensions seem to make the most difference on Cessna 205 and 206. They have the same wing span as 182s, but are considerably heavier.

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Ho Rob,

Thanks for that,

Our air strip is 1.2 kilometres long and the feces are at least another 500. from the end of the tarmac.

I'm going to get seat belts fitted in a configuration that allows ether 4 single jumpers or 2 tandems.

How are yo anyway, we just got back from Seronera and Ngorongoro last night. Leigh managed to sneak in the balloon on the empty pax and we saw the Big 5 in 24 hours!!! shit loads of Lions and I couldn't help remembering when you were taking a piss outside the hotel gates in Zim when that elephant stomped the ground in front of you :D.

Are you still doing the boogie in July?

Oh and Paul (the balloon pilot) says hi.

He's quitting the (balloon) game after 17 years and going into scuba!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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With 4 old time (PCs and front mounted reserves) skydivers on board, this machine would haul ass to 13 grand in 15 minutes or so. This was at the old Grindale dropzone at Bridlington in 1973



That is the kins stuff we want to hear.

when we had both tanks full, +a US18gallon extra tank in the rear and 420 litre jerry cans full. and pilot + me we were climbing at 700feet per minute for up until 4000'. we were not allowed any higher but it wanted to keep on going!!!



B|
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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How high is your runway above sea level?
How hot does it get during the busy season?
How high do you normally climb?



1, 2700'

2, maximum 30 degrees C on the ground (@ 2700')

3, we go to 9000' agl/ 1200' amsl
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Is your camera girl cute?

I hate to put her out of business, but you might want to consider hand-mounted video. That will allow you to fly with two tandems and two videos on every load.



1, Yes she is cute! see attached picture! that was a bad hair day!

2, we are right next to the highest freestanding Mountain in the world. we have amazing views of African savanna, glaciers, with fresh water springs and mountains in the distance. how do you expect to get photos like the 2nd attached photo with a hand cam?

we charge US$150 for stills of DVD and US$190 for both. It is worth having outside camera.

also when would we get to jump for fun if that were the case?....we wouldn't unless we had only 1 customer!

and yes we do take photos and video of the customers under parachute as well, if they do not get motion sickness!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Ask your pilot to show you in a FAR/AIM.



I'm not sure what that is but i'll ask him when he arrives in a couple of days. thanks
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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You gotta love Africa!

Paul skyped me that you were coming in. I got to go visit one day - before he leaves. He's one hell of a balloon driver. He would drop four of us from the balloon then bring it round using the contrary winds at different altitudes to pick up the next load.

We are using a Navajo this weekend. Next week we are down in the Zambezi Valley for the Air Rally. We are trying out a new Islander with up-rated 300 HP motors. If it works then I'll take it to Vic Falls. It should be cheaper than the PAC750XL and I only have to ferry it 500 kilometres.

WOuld you be interested in coaching?
Cheers
Rob
Rob-By
Check it out at http://www.skydive.co.zw Clicky!

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Hi Rob,

Yes i do love africa!

Quote

WOuld you be interested in coaching?



Yes, depending on the time of year?

P/M sent.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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