Responding to "Swooping is not a crime"

[stratostar 5]

If using your eyes was the best way, we wouldnt use altimeters now would we? If your eyes were the best bet we wouldnt use audibles to back up the visual altimeters would we?

Quote

I use my eyes and never a dial below 1k and I haven't used a beeper in the ear for the last 5 years and only wear one wrist mount dial.

***what do you do at a dew DZ? Those ques are gone.

During my visit to your play ground I had no problem finding my cues to make your LZ on jump one and I even forgot my wrist mount and I use no other alti, other then my eyes.

Not trying startng a pissing contest with you hippy, but not everyone need those "tools" to fly a left hand pattern or swoop the gates.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Para_Frog 1]

The reason DZOs have to do what is right for them is the lawyers slick.

Whether or not the swooper is the type to sue, eventually a very smooth lawyer will convince one to. Or the surviving family.

Lawyers were all over the place when Blondie had her accident looking to sue someone related to the jump operation or the land it is leased on. We just told them to fuck off.

Surviving family members of a dead swooper or someone that swooper killed may not be so adamant about accepting the results of their chosen sport.

It's not the DZOs that will kill swooping...it's the litigious nature of society. Fucking lawyers.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[waltappel 1]

The short version: I think Brian's solutions seem reasonable--they coincide with the BSR proposal, which I agree wholeheartedly with. I suppose it's being nitpicky considering some of his ideas leading up to that conclusion, but a couple of things in his article really stood out to me.

Quote

We all need to challenge ourselves. This is what keeps us showing up at the dropzone every weekend. Thousands of people enjoy the challenge of high speed approaches and define the swoop landing as an essential part of their experience. They wait all week to get a few jumps in over the weekend, and now many of them are unable to get what they came for. To take that away is to cut many people off from the very reason why they skydive in the first place. Is that really where we want to go with this?'

We cannot afford to alienate anyone....

Sounds reasonable, but it ignores the ugly underside of what to some in our sport is an essential part of the skydiving experience: boosting their egos by doing stupid shit and wowing the crowd no matter who they put at risk. The overriding factor is their own ego. I'd happily cut them off from the very reason why they skydive in the first place. I think we *should* alienate them--it will save lives.

Quote

There are precious few experienced skydivers in the world and I would argue that we are the reason for the dropzone in the first place.

That sooooooooooooooo reminds me of BASE jumpers who, at Bridge Day, claim that *they* are the reason Bridge Day exists. It's such an ego-centric attitude that it's laughable.

Quote

I understand that there are a few DZOs that are doing very well running purely tandem operations, but this is the exception, rather than the rule. Most dropzones are a business of passion, rather than a pragmatic financial pursuit. If we wanted to make a million dollars, we would have done something else with our time. We do this because we love it.

Students have long been the life blood of the sport. Along with instructors and, as you point out, DZOs with a passion for the sport, students keep the rest of us in the air. Given the choice between alienating the skygods and alienating students, I'd much rather alienate the skygods because it's the students who put dinner on the DZO's table at most DZs.

Quote

The atmosphere created by having fun jumpers around is essential to the success of a dropzone, even if the profit is significantly less. Sport jumpers give the tandem students a reason to come back and learn how to skydive. They come back for the jumping, true, but they also come back for the connection to other people. They want to be part of a community, as do we all. We must therefore allow all aspects of the sport to continue to proliferate so that our numbers may grow. It is that simple.

That only works if all disciplines respect others' desire for safety. I would not be surprised if some people have left the sport because the mix of high-speed and low-speed canopies in the landing pattern is creating deadly hazards that are very difficult to avoid.

Quote

We can create sustainable solutions.
It is possible. We simply need to think things through and adapt

Agreed and the diagrams make a great deal of sense to me. Good work.

Walt

[Para_Frog 1]

Quote

That sooooooooooooooo reminds me of BASE jumpers who, at Bridge Day, claim that *they* are the reason Bridge Day exists. It's such an ego-centric attitude that it's laughable.

Yeah, 150,000 people come for the fucking candy apples.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[faulknerwn 36]

I can land in the peas 90% of the time and I never use my altimeter under canopy. I use my eyeballs - where I start my pattern can vary greatly - it depends on where the spot was, how easy it was to get back, what other canopy traffic is doing etc.

Once you train your eyeballs, you don't need to use your altimeter so much. It reminds me of a time an old-timer had the young jumpers he was doing an RW group with lay on the ground. When they did, he told them to look at the ground. He explained that they were zeroing their primary altimeter :-)

[waltappel 1]

Quote

Yeah, 150,000 people come for the fucking candy apples.

Ok, it's off topic but I'll bite. The ego freaks at Bridge Day wallow in their testosterone-soaked glory thinking the people in the crowd worship them like the gods they are.

Of course the people in the crowd jare really there just want to watch the people who are retarded enough to jump off the bridge.

Back to the topic at hand.

If skygods think that DZs exist because of them, they are just as "off-base" (extremely funny pun intended) IMO.

Walt

[stratostar 5]

Quote

It reminds me of a time an old-timer had the young jumpers he was doing an RW group with lay on the ground. When they did, he told them to look at the ground. He explained that they were zeroing their primary altimeter :-)

Hey I know that guy...... and that dirt taste like crap, oh yea in TX it was crap....LOL

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[skinnyshrek 0]

Ok, it's off topic but I'll bite I thought you were on about the candy apples all those people show up for

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

It's not the DZOs that will kill swooping...it's the litigious nature of society. Fucking lawyers.

At the risk of derailing this thread, there are few cases in our sport that scream out for lawyers then fatalities cause by someone swooping into traffic. Lower canopy traffic shouldn't have to accept that some jackass above is going to ignore all the rules of canopy flight. Personal responsibility is a two way street.

(At this point the more defensive will scream at the monitor - what about those fuckers who do S turns on final?! Yeah, they shouldn't do that, but that probably won't be the last link in the chain of events of a fatality collision)

---
PLFXpert poses the theory that banning swoopers is bad for business. They bring in business.

Is it true, or just a personal wish?

For me, a place that has a large enough LZ to segment, or a method for segmenting, or a ban on swooping, will probably be more desirable to me than one like Lodi where you got swoopers and crazy S turners. I do RW and only load at 1.1-1.2, so these people are passing me on the way down. Most will land ahead of me, but a few will not unless they swoop.

I like watching the swoopers come in when I'm on the ground. Would it entice me to become a student? No. And if properly advertized, it's something that requires a significant number of jumps (total, and per year) to do, beyond the reach of a large number in the sport. Realistically a would be student is 2 years away at best.

Which is worth more to a DZ depends on how many are in each camp. Are there 4 of me for every one of the 250/year jumpers? If so, which one can bring in more tandems?

[yardhippie 0]

OK. so you folks that are responding to me have LOTS more jumps than I. You also have MANY more jumps than others reading this post. You have spent years and thousands of jumps perfecting your "pattern". If I asked you what altitudes do you initiate your downwind, base, and final legs. I'll bet you could tell me within 100' or so. If you cant. Come see me, I'll do my best to show you different, and you can do yours. The fact is, you've had years to perfect your approach. BUT, how many of you practice a HP downwind, base and turn to final every available and SAFE time? I have to admit, I have learned more having to pick my outs, and fly a 90, 90, 90 pattern, than flying my HP approach. I have a new appreciation for those working to make that happen. I think each and every one of you have something to teach me, but I'll be I can teach you something too. Which of you has the sack enough to come see what I've got to offer?
I think we ALL have a UNIQUE perspective and idea of our sport and how it should work. Let's not forget, not everyone has 3000+ jumps and your experience. Everyone has to start somewhere. Giving them a reference skill set, will put them in a position to be safer, and more aware than what is happening now.
Anyone disagree?

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[skinnyshrek 0]

Quote

OK. so you folks that are responding to me have LOTS more jumps than I. You also have MANY more jumps than others reading this post. You have spent years and thousands of jumps perfecting your "pattern". If I asked you what altitudes do you initiate your downwind, base, and final legs. I'll bet you could tell me within 100' or so. If you cant. Come see me, I'll do my best to show you different, and you can do yours. The fact is, you've had years to perfect your approach. BUT, how many of you practice a HP downwind, base and turn to final every available and SAFE time? I have to admit, I have learned more having to pick my outs, and fly a 90, 90, 90 pattern, than flying my HP approach. I have a new appreciation for those working to make that happen. I think each and every one of you have something to teach me, but I'll be I can teach you something too. Which of you has the sack enough to come see what I've got to offer?
I think we ALL have a UNIQUE perspective and idea of our sport and how it should work. Let's not forget, not everyone has 3000+ jumps and your experience. Everyone has to start somewhere. Giving them a reference skill set, will put them in a position to be safer, and more aware than what is happening now.
Anyone disagree?

where can i sign up for the hippie teaching? I only have i think 2408 or something jumps yet i am always willing to learn..Fuck, i still learn on video flying..help me obe-1 When you stop learning in skydiving is when you become one arrogant son of a bitch

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[yardhippie 0]

Quote

where can i sign up for the hippie teaching? I only have i think 2408 or something jumps yet i am always willing to learn..Fuck, i still learn on video flying..help me obe-1 When you stop learning in skydiving is when you become one arrogant son of a bitch

I'll tell you what dick, you sign up for Hippie teaching, I'll sign up for Ogre learning! Lord knows, I dont know shit about flying video! We can teach each other!? Deal?

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[skinnyshrek 0]

deal...lol so i teach you swooping and video damn i am not that smart my friend..hey you out this week-end or in thomoston..ian is doing some great swoop teachings at the farm

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[2shay 0]

I agree with bryan 100%. I am glad that someone with his knowledge and experience posted that. Big thanks to brian.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[yardhippie 0]

Quote

deal...lol so i teach you swooping and video damn i am not that smart my friend..hey you out this week-end or in thomoston..ian is doing some great swoop teachings at the farm

I'll tell ya what. I'll come to the Farm. You teach me what you got. Then you come to Skydive Atlanta, I teach you what I got. You in? I have no doubt you have many things I can learn! Even if you are a pomme bastage!

As for this weekend, its SDA's annaversary weekend, and Pinion is organizing freefly ways. Im IN on that SHIZZLE!
I need to stop being such a one DZ'er and come visit, I likes The Farmers too!

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I agree with bryan 100%. I am glad that someone with his knowledge and experience posted that. Big thanks to brian.

Brian didn't post anything significantly different than the information in the BSR thread.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skinnyshrek 0]

you used shizzle and pinyon in the same thread you saying he hjas a big nose or something...he is definately more advantage to flying with that beak on him

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[marks 0]

Quote

Quote

I agree with bryan 100%. I am glad that someone with his knowledge and experience posted that. Big thanks to brian.

Brian didn't post anything significantly different than the information in the BSR thread.

yes he did.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I agree with bryan 100%. I am glad that someone with his knowledge and experience posted that. Big thanks to brian.

Brian didn't post anything significantly different than the information in the BSR thread.

yes he did.

Really? He's advocating separate landing areas for standard and HP approaches. By all means, show me where Bill and the others didn't make that suggestion in the BSR thread.

The only difference is that he's a big name HP instructor and he's not advocating making an enforcible rule out of it - that's it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skypuppy 1]

Age has absoulutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality.
__________________________________________________

That's just a dumb statement. When I went to Teachers' College we spent a long time learning JUST HOW age effects knowledge, learning, attitude and personality.

That evolution doesn't stop just because someone reaches the'age of majority'. Just ask the companies that provide automobile insurance about the effect of age on knowledge, learning, attitude and personality.

Young guys behind the wheel have been endangering themselves and others since junior league chariot-racing in the Circus Maximus.... (said tongue-in-cheek, to be sure).

Certainly age may not be the only factor, but it can be an issue. And it's the guy under a small, fast canopy who's more likely to cause someone else danger then the one under a slow accuracy canopy trying to get set up on the bowl, who at least everyone can keep an eye on.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[marks 0]

Quote

The only difference is that he's a big name HP instructor and he's not advocating making an enforcible rule out of it - that's it.

there is a difference in a BSR and a way to deal with a problem.

the problem HAS to be dealt with at the DZO and S&TA level. if you write a BSR it is the same thing. so why write a BSR?

the only reason I see is, if the DZO does NOT follow the proposed BSR, there is a possible lawsuit.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

The only difference is that he's a big name HP instructor and he's not advocating making an enforcible rule out of it - that's it.

there is a difference in a BSR and a way to deal with a problem.

the problem HAS to be dealt with at the DZO and S&TA level. if you write a BSR it is the same thing. so why write a BSR?

the only reason I see is, if the DZO does NOT follow the proposed BSR, there is a possible lawsuit.

I can see that point, and I don't disagree with it. But, here's what *I* see as the other side of that coin - how accurate it may be, I don't know.

We've all run across people that just won't listen to anything that other people tell them - they're too arrogant, or just plain think they aren't doing anything wrong.

Now...the S&TA can talk to them and ground them... the DZO can ground them or kick them out... then they go down the road and do the same thing at the next DZ, griping about how persecuted they were at the last place. *IF* word gets passed around, the other local DZ *may* not let them jump there...but then again, they might.

Having it as a BSR puts teeth into the punishment. Example: look at the statement from the DZO in the BSR thread, when Danny Page came up - he didn't want to be too harsh for fear of alienating people and being a dick. With the BSR, he could've put the blame on the big bad USPA. For that matter, USPA could have pulled his license and any certs until he straightened out.

Which do you think would make some cock-strong idiot come around... 15 warnings from the DZO and S&TA to "quit doing that" or a couple warnings followed by a license pull?

If the BSR proposal doesn't get voted in, then we're down to what we have now... talking to them and possibly grounding and/or kicking them off some local DZs. I'd say that the fact that a BSR is even being proposed suggest that the 'talking to' option isn't working well.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,380]

>the problem HAS to be dealt with at the DZO and S&TA level. if you
>write a BSR it is the same thing. so why write a BSR?

Because then there will be one standard based on the best knowledge we have. That will save lives. Having every DZO and S+TA come up with a different answer (including "do nothing", "let the swoopers land with everyone else because they say they're fine", "let the JM's swoop and no one else" etc) will not work as well.

Brian had some great suggestions. Not everyone reads his posts - heck, few jumpers read the SIM, and fewer still read dropzone.com. But everyone reads the BSR's.

>the only reason I see is, if the DZO does NOT follow the proposed BSR,
>there is a possible lawsuit.

That is indeed one possible answer.

[billvon 2,380]

>Brian didn't post anything significantly different than the information in the BSR thread.

Right, but so what? If people will listen to him say the same thing and think he's a hero - then mission accomplished. It doesn't matter who says it, what matters is that it happens.

[justinhawxhurst 0]

"I apploud those who have been in the sport for years and year, yet remain progressive and continue their education, and training. Those people I look up to. But anyone who says "children today aren't taught respect" when one can only assume youre meaning "swoopers", isn't deserving of respect. Blatant disregard for any type individuality, and a blanket statement such as that is sad, and offensive. IMHO, its just a step away from a personal attack."

Thats a nicer way than I was going to put it. If it were not for the new and young skydivers the sport would be dead in a few years. Just as with skiing snowboarding and all the free sports that have been saved by the new kids and the X-Games. If you are going to use that S#"t about the next generation haveing no respect then dont complain when there is no new development in canopy and safty equipment. I am sure this same kind of argument came up when canopies went from round to square. What happend it changed anyways and the sport got safer and bigger.