Responding to "Swooping is not a crime"

[yardhippie 0]

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Obviously we come from different generations. Diffferent generations in life and different generations in the sport.

You may want to re-read the posts I was referring to before ATTACKING me.

Ok sure thing. Lets have a go.
You say "I totally agree with Pop & I totally agree with you."
Points made in those posts are:
"Drop Zones are businesses, and the DZO's have the right to implement any rule they feel necessary to protect their business...even if its banning high speed approaches."

"Plus swooping isnt a right...its a privelege when you do it on someones elses property jumping out of someone elses plane."

"I dont know if it was a coincidence or not but it was about the time free flying came into the sport when people( generally young guys) didnt really care so much for the rules and canopy anarchy came into vogue..."

Now lets have a look at that shall we? You agree with all of the above, right?
Me: Damn straight business have a right to determine what policy the imlemnt at their facilities. Thats the beauty of economics. Demand follows supply, where ever it may be.

Swooping is NOT a right. Low man has the right of way ALWAYS. Does this mean someone under a 230 sq/ft canopy can 'S' a strait in approach causing many others to abort their pattens, Hell no. The respect you speak of goes both ways. That person who is in the right has a DUTY to his/her fellow skydivers in the air to fly a PREDICTABLE, and CONSISTANT pattern every time.

Ive not been around as long as so many, but I listen to folks who've been jumping since before I thought it even a dream. They talk of 'swooping' early 5 and 7 cell canopies, when the first zero P canpies hit the market what people were doing with them. In that time frame, they were swoopers. So likening the evoultion of swooping to the appearance of freefling is like making a parallel of dirt bike racing to mountian biking. The two have some common traits. Thats it. Every other point is mute.

You also say "Too bad the children today aren't taught respect for others or themselves. I remember when you got popped for not opening a door for your "elders"...it was all about respect. "

Well seeing as you agree with the poster you replied to your "children" comment was a genralizing comment about swoopers. Implying we have no respect for our elders. I'll tell ya what. I was raised to respect those deserving of my respect. I got no respect for a 50 year old who still lives with his parents basment and doesnt have a job. I got pleny of respect for those who fight for out country, those who stand up for what they belive in, those WILLING to listen and understand. Close minded arrogance has no place in the world or in our sport. If you think you deserve any amount of respect just because Darwin hasnt met up with you yet, you're foolish. Its your experiences and knowledge I respect. Its what CONSTRUCTIVE addition you make to our world.

Ahhh. but then there's the post Im replying to. How do you know what generation Im from? Surely you an read a profile and figure out my "generation" in the sport? But what does that have to with the price of green grapes? Seriously, give me some logical argument that makes your ideas superior to mine because you "come from a different generation". Age has absoulutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality.
When was the last time a younger jumper made a suggestion to you listened to? What was the last canopy training course you attended? How many hop-n-pops did you do last year to perfect your canopy skills? How many people did you approach last weekend to constructively help them better their skills?

Oh, and if you think my last response was an attack? You're not even close. I expect MORE from a jumper thats been in the sport longer than I. I'm still learning, yet Im willing to stand up and call bullshit when I see it, and if Im wrong. I'll admit it. What about you?

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Hi Kris

The problem isn't 270s. The problem is people winging it after opening. We need (when possible) to seperate fast canopies from slow ones but we also need to communicate our intentions with each other before the airplane even takes off, come up with a plan for the load and then stick to the plan. It's a combination of communication and education.

PS: Swoopers need to know when to abort their swoop ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[yardhippie 0]

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The problem isn't 270s. The problem is people winging it after opening. We need (when possible) to seperate fast canopies from slow ones and then we need to communicate our intentions with each other before the airplane even takes off, come up with a plan for the load and then stick to the plan. It's a combination of communication and education.

A-fucking-men! I just dont understand why more places are making rules for pattern flying. So, you say these people land here and those people land there. WTF good does it do ANYONE, if you have to spend your time wondering what that spiraling idiot is going to do? For my DZ, I know where and what altitude I should be when I enter my downwind leg, I turn onto my base leg, and when I make my turn to final. I have different altitudes for each of my final turns (90, 180, and 270). Everyone, should have these, how else would you know if you're high or low in your pattern?

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PS: Swoopers need to know when to abort their swoop ...

You bet we do, and hopefully they've got a series of outs, and avoidance procedures in mind for when there is any traffic.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[ExAFO 0]

The whole segregated landing area is fine, but it fucking sucks to have to land out in BFE simply because you don't swoop.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[yardhippie 0]

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The whole segregated landing area is fine, but it fucking sucks to have to land out in BFE simply because you don't swoop.

Wouldnt the converse be true? But that shouldnt affect the location of a swoop lane. Things that should matter.

Clear of other canopies: both in airspace and real estate. Some places is just not manageable, then other restrictions may be required.

Enough real estate: Swoopers burn a LOT of real estate to land, is the swoop area the longest on the DZ? But also, we have to consider the inexperience pilots. they need a large amount of real estate also. They're learning and can make mistakes (as can swoopers), we have to give them vital room to correct for that also.

Landing patterns: You sure dont want the non-swooping pilots flying a base leg accross the final path of a swoop lane. The result could be catestrophic.

Forget the wind! Unless you're a learning pilot or beginner. One of the skills you should have is the ability to land down or cross-wind. If you (Im not directing this at ExAFO here) cant land in a moderate cross-wind or mild downwind, you need to upsize or seek help with your piloting. What happens if you're out in a bad spot avoiding powerlines, fences, roads, etc? You should be able to land your canopy in all directions for the winds at the time. This is a survival skill, not a swoop skill.

For what ever reason the DZO and or S&TA has determined the swoop area to be where it is, we have to abide by those rules, BUT if you think its unsafe, rather than inconvienient, make a stand and gather your troops. It's up to ALL of US to make our skies safer.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[jlmiracle 7]

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From a business perspective these "high-speed approachers" WILL go somewhere else. Spectators will follow. Swooping is one of the few skydiving disciplines that spectators can actually watch firsthand.

I disagree. From talking to customers, and watching their reactions I think most of them are way more impressed with a gentle tandem landing then they are by swoopers.

In fact many get concerned when they see some one pull a real fast swoop... "we won't have to land like that will we!!!"

Ditto. Heard that many times, In fact, a few were ready to bail on their tandems after seeing a swooper come in fast.

We had one fast flying canopy pilot (trying to be pc) crash and burn a whole company left that was out there to do tandems and have a picnic.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[yardhippie 0]

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From a business perspective these "high-speed approachers" WILL go somewhere else. Spectators will follow. Swooping is one of the few skydiving disciplines that spectators can actually watch firsthand.

I disagree. From talking to customers, and watching their reactions I think most of them are way more impressed with a gentle tandem landing then they are by swoopers.

In fact many get concerned when they see some one pull a real fast swoop... "we won't have to land like that will we!!!"

Ditto. Heard that many times, In fact, a few were ready to bail on their tandems after seeing a swooper come in fast.

We had one fast flying canopy pilot (trying to be pc) crash and burn a whole company left that was out there to do tandems and have a picnic.

j

Judy, You and I go way back (at least for me). You also know my histoy as I spent a good bit of time jumping with you and others there.

But you know as well as I do, any tandem student seeing somone pound into the earth is frightening. it doesnt matter wether or not its a "fast flying canopy pilot" (I like that phrase), a student, or a tandem. You and I both have seen all three happen. The fast flying pilot, just has so much more dramtic effect due to the "fast flying" part.

I hate to ever see anyone get hurt, especially the one-timers (tandems) who do bring our sport a LOT of money.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[SpecialKaye 0]

Since I have to spell out for you what exactly I agree with, here it is:

Pop: Plus swooping isnt a right...its a privelege when you do it on someones elses property jumping out of someone elses plane. I am not anti swoop here...I think its a great discipline, but if you are not happy with a dz banning it, then go to another one, or start your own, and when death begins to affect your business, maybe you will have a different outlook yourself.

Bhammond: I remember the days when you would get a 30 day grounding for a 180 hook turn and everyone pretty much abided by those rules and we still had fun..... I dont know if it was a coincidence or not but it was about the time free flying came into the sport when people( generally young guys) didnt really care so much for the rules.

Both of them are referring to days gone by and I happen to agree that in the days gone by, we had basic rules that were complied with. Rarely did anyone have to be pulled aside for "busting the beer line", they paid their debt and sometimes were put in "time out" for continuing to violate the rules.

In todays modern sport, the rules aren't the rules any more.

I've visited 30+ different DZ's nationwide in my years in the sport. I've been to some that are really good about having rules and maintaining those rules, I've also been to DZ's that I've done one jump and won't go back because of the lack of safety and regulations.

I'm not a swooper and never will be a swooper. I have no desire to fly that fast, however, I shouldn't have to worry about someone hooking right into me if I use my Sabre 120 and am in the early part of the landing pattern, either. Swoopers don't belong in the main landing area with the rest of the pattern if they are unwilling to abort a hook turn when it's necessary or appropriate.

[Nightingale 0]

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Hi Kris

The problem isn't 270s. The problem is people winging it after opening. We need (when possible) to seperate fast canopies from slow ones but we also need to communicate our intentions with each other before the airplane even takes off, come up with a plan for the load and then stick to the plan. It's a combination of communication and education.

PS: Swoopers need to know when to abort their swoop ...

I agree, but you're always going to have people who don't stick to the plan, don't communicate, and just can't learn. Of course, it isn't the job of the DZO to babysit people, but people dying is bad for business, so they're trying to control it as best they can. If this way doesn't work, they'll try something else.

I've seen a lot of responsible swoopers, and I realize that the bad ones are ruining it for the good. Ultimately, DZOs are business owners, and they need to do what they feel is best, and ultimately, if people keep dying on swoops and skydivers and DZOs fail to regulate it, the FAA will, and nobody wants that.

[skybytch 259]

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Respect is necessary for your fellow jumper in the landing pattern

Absolutely. Swoopers should respect those of us who fly traditional patterns by not swooping through us, regardless of whether there is a designated swooping area or not. But OTOH, those of us who fly traditional patterns should respect swoopers by flying a predictable pattern. By flying a predictable pattern, I mean not doing S-turns on final, not sitting in deep brakes to sink in, not chasing the windsock in light and variable conditions, not spiraling down to final and not landing in a designated swooping area - all of which can be seen happening at most dz's pretty much every weekend.

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Many of those individuals are under 25 yrs. old (and have been in the sport short term) and have the attitude that they have a right to do hook turns, no matter who the cut off.

And many of those individuals who do S-turns on final, spiral into the pattern and chase the windsock have been in the sport a while and have the attitude that they have a right to do whatever the hell they want, no matter who they cut off.

Assigning blame to one group or another is not a way to reduce canopy collisions. The only way to do that is for all skydivers to work together to create a solution that allows everybody to pursue their skydiving goals (relatively) safely.

A BSR requiring designated, separate landing areas for high performance and traditional landing patterns is a good thing, IMHO. I also think it needs to be worded to allow DZO's to determine what works best for their DZ.

And for the record - I'm not a swooper.

[jlmiracle 7]

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But you know as well as I do, any tandem student seeing somone pound into the earth is frightening. it doesnt matter wether or not its a "fast flying canopy pilot" (I like that phrase), a student, or a tandem. You and I both have seen all three happen. The fast flying pilot, just has so much more dramtic effect due to the "fast flying" part.

Yeah, they will comment also when a Tandem has a less then stellar landing but they show more fear when they see the canopies landing especially fast.

I'm not totally anti-swooping. and sorry John, you've been doing this long enough to be included with us relic's so don't fool yourself and lump yourself in with "the kids". I know and so do many other on here, that its not just the young ones killing themselves and others.

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I hate to ever see anyone get hurt, especially the one-timers (tandems) who do bring our sport a LOT of money.

I don't think anyone on here wants to see anyone get hurt. well,

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Money talks, business owners listen.

And that was exactly my point, too. Again--funny thing about opposing sides.

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if they find that banning 270s is costing them money, they'll probably un-ban them. If, however, the policy results in a decrease in landing-related injuries and an increase in tandems and student skydives, they'll probably keep the policy in place.

In my same post you responded to & quoted, I addressed this. With the swoopers going elsewhere and the increased interest in our sport due largely to swooping, it is my opinon ultimately the DZO who bans or restricts swooping will loose money.

You stated you believe the increased interest is due to accessibility of tandems. The extreme increase in interest, however, is new. The accessiblity of tandems is not not.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I do hear ALOT of people saying we need a fast lane and a slow lane.

Banning, restricting to turn ratio--I'm not for either.

But, you raise an excellent point. I brought the article & this thread to Billy's attention we he got home.

For those who don't know my best friend & lover, BillyZ--swooping is, and has been from its beginning, his passion. Neither of us have jumped too often recently, but of his more than 4,000 jumps, he started swooping at around jump 500. And likely only didn't start until then b/c swooping was in its infancy back when he started.

His thoughts (and I'm paraphrasing) were more or less there should be a swooping area, separate from the other landing area. It would even make sense & be acceptable to limit swoopers, if intending to swoop, to hop-n-pop. Given the stats & incidences, swoopers don't need to be jumping at the same altitude & same time as other jumpers, but especially do not need to be landing in the same area.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[skinnyshrek 0]

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Drop Zoners are businesses...blah...blah...blah.... maybe you will have a different outlook yourself.

I think it is the 270's them selves - evil litrtle fuckers.

Just like SUV's.

See my sig line for details.

You may want to change your sig line to idiots doing 270's in the main landing when there are others around them.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Any Swoopers out there really think that busting a 270 or 180 or even a hard 90 through slow traffic is just fine??

As long as you allow different wingloadings there are going to be speed disparities in the pattern. With similar suspended weights a 105 in full brakes flies about as fast as a 170 in full flight.

As long as you allow different planforms and line lengths the speed differences are going to increase at the transitions between down-wind and base, base and final. A big accuracy or BASE canopy doesn't speed up much when you hang on a toggle while small ellipticals can put you above the trailing edge.

As long as those speed differences exist it doesn't matter whether they're coming from differences in canopy size or speed changing maneuvers like a deep brake sink, surging from deep brakes, symetric front risers, or a turning approach.

A steeper 90 degree turn is predictable and doesn't break the pattern. There's nothing wrong with it given sufficient clearance for it to other canopies.

Bigger turns are often not predictable. Given a single allowed landing direction (swoop course with entry gates) you know where people are going regardless of how they get there. With a wide open field and people chasing wind streamers there's no way to know.

[DougH 270]

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You stated you believe the increased interest is due to accessibility of tandems. The extreme increase in interest, however, is new. The accessiblity of tandems is not not.

Where are your are you coming up with this extreme increase in interest?

Extreme increase of what? Tandems, observers, students who progress past a single tandem skydive?

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like the skydiving industry is in a decline in many areas, not a massive increase.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,380]

>WTF good does it do ANYONE, if you have to spend your time
>wondering what that spiraling idiot is going to do?

No good at all! When someone does that over and over, sometimes the only option is to lay down the law and tell them they can't do that or they are grounded. Problem is there has to _be_ a law (or to be exact a recommendation everyone in the US follows.)

>Everyone, should have these, how else would you know if you're high or
>low in your pattern?

Hmm. I don't, and I don't have any problem making it to a target. I figure my eyes are better used looking for traffic than looking at an altimeter (or listening to one.)

[bob.dino 0]

Fuck it. Let's go back to the days when jumping a square meant that no-one would do RW with you.

You've just been generation-gapped .

[yardhippie 0]

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Since I have to spell out for you what exactly I agree with, here it is:

Yes you do have to spell it out sometimes. This is the internet, and we cant read minds. Your statements were stereotyping and generalizing. I criticized that. I could have handled it better, but I take offense to stereotypes and generalizations.

[LyraM45 0]

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Interested spectators = more tandems .

Interested spectators = more student skydivers

There, fixed it for you.

If this is true, then how come the number of skydivers in the country is decreasing? Especially amongst the younger crowd of 20-30 somethings?? USPA had a conversation with those of us at collegiates about how the sport of skydiving has seemed to gone down in popularity in that crowd and may worry about the sports future if something doesn't pick up. So, in recent years with the big boom in swooping, where are all these interested people?

I think it's quite the opposite-- sure, it's more fun to watch and it's something that is dynamicly done right in front of spectators, but all it takes is one death in 1 million of those fun swoops that they watch and it's all over for them. Unfortunately, maybe there's been enough carnage to turn people away recently. Even if it doesn't happen at the event that that spectator is at, word gets around because of the wonderful media network in this country.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[yardhippie 0]

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>Everyone, should have these, how else would you know if you're high or
>low in your pattern?

Hmm. I don't, and I don't have any problem making it to a target. I figure my eyes are better used looking for traffic than looking at an altimeter (or listening to one.)

Im not talking about looking for traffic, Im talking about YOUR landing pattern. If you dont have any way to measure "where" you are in your pattern how can you know if you're high/low, long/short? If using your eyes was the best way, we wouldnt use altimeters now would we? If your eyes were the best bet we wouldnt use audibles to back up the visual altimeters would we?
I encourage/challenge you to evaluate your landing pattern and really evaluate how you determine your playground, entry to downwind, base and final legs. You have a lot of jumps Bill, I'd imagine you use ground references, and visual cues to tell you where you're at in your pattern. If you do this, then youre already using, in a somewhat modified version, of what I describe. But what do you do at a dew DZ? Those ques are gone.

Mind you, this is only ONE of MANY tools that should be used by pilots to determing their "slot" in the pattern, and help them fly a consistent, predictable pattern.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[billvon 2,380]

>Im not talking about looking for traffic, Im talking about YOUR landing
>pattern. If you dont have any way to measure "where" you are in your
>pattern how can you know if you're high/low, long/short? If using your eyes
>was the best way, we wouldnt use altimeters now would we?

I think you should use your altimeter until your eyes are well trained enough to not need them. When I jump for fun/team training I don't generally use an altimeter. I take one on AFF jumps so I can debrief more effectively though (and so I have a backup for the student.)

>Mind you, this is only ONE of MANY tools that should be used by pilots to
>determing their "slot" in the pattern, and help them fly a consistent,
>predictable pattern.

I agree there.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I think it's quite the opposite-- sure, it's more fun to watch and it's something that is dynamicly done right in front of spectators, but all it takes is one death in 1 million of those fun swoops that they watch and it's all over for them. Unfortunately, maybe there's been enough carnage to turn people away recently. Even if it doesn't happen at the event that that spectator is at, word gets around because of the wonderful media network in this country.

What I have seen in the news related to skydiving (particularly my local news and you and I both live in FL--also one of the swooping meccas), other than the Today show doing a highlight of swooping & high-performance canopy flight, are skydiving deaths & injuries due to airplanes crashing & some non-swooping related incidents here or there.

And then there's America's Funniest that always shows something here or there, but still nothing (that I've seen) swooping-related.

Now, I'm NOT saying this means swooping is safer--not even a little bit.

What I AM saying is due to the Today show and other similar media spots dedicated to the POSITIVE aspects of skydiving (i.e. non-death related reporting) featuring swooping, blade-running and the like, the public has been given an alternative to all the other stuff they're used to seeing in the news & media about skydiving. Before swooping, it wasn't too often the media featured a world-record jump or anything else positive other than death-related reports. Now on all sorts of channels, I'm seeing skydiving--particularly swooping--shown in a positive light.

The number of skydivers decreasing and the interest in the sport are NOT mutually exclusive.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[peek 20]

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If this is true, then how come the number of skydivers in the country is decreasing?

Whoops! I didn't think that would cause a side discussion.

I was just kidding PLFxpert for thinking Tandem students rather than all types of skydiving students.

I agree that there is a decline in skydiving. In fact I wrote an article about it at http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2648072;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

[PLFXpert 0]

I knew you were kidding, silly.



And with all else said, Billy is yelling at me to get off the damn DZ.com already and come outside to play with him.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.