Swooping is not a crime

[Spizzzarko 0]

"Speaking of knee-jerk... again, your prejudice is showing."

"when are y'all going to start DOING something about it??? "

"But, who cares about that guy flying the square 90 pattern, anyway? He's not a CANOPY PILOT, after all... "


Those are pretty barbed remarks there buddy. Do you want to solve the situation or just argue for the sake of argueing? Maybe when you calm down a little then you can join the adult conversation.

[mnealtx 0]

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But, who cares about that guy flying the square 90 pattern, anyway? He's not a CANOPY PILOT, after all...

Your words ... not Grant's.

Go refresh yourself as to what Stu said about responsible canopy pilots versus the irresponsible ones. We're all canopy pilots out there. It's just that some of us are under race cars while others use minivans.

No, that's not what he said, but that's the attitude that comes through..."How DARE you tell ME what to do???"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You two should have a gun battle ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

Mine's bigger...

[mnealtx 0]

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"Speaking of knee-jerk... again, your prejudice is showing."

"when are y'all going to start DOING something about it??? "

"But, who cares about that guy flying the square 90 pattern, anyway? He's not a CANOPY PILOT, after all... "


Those are pretty barbed remarks there buddy. Do you want to solve the situation or just argue for the sake of argueing? Maybe when you calm down a little then you can join the adult conversation.

Speaking of calming down, and adult conversation... does this sound familiar?

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Those are the ones who are so blinded by a death that they will never be able to get over it and thank rationally about the situation so they choose to yell and scream on dropzone.com and clump all swoopers into one group.

You want to dish it out, but don't like it when you get it back?

Seems like there's a lot of discussion, except for people that want to crap on everything that isn't "let me do what I want when I want."

Look at the BSR thread - fully 75% of the comments were bitching about how it would never work and gripes that "none of the authors are swoopers" and "you dont swoop so why are you doing this".

THEN, a big name swooper comes up with the same idea, and suddenly it's the greatest idea in the world. That tells that a fair number really don't give a shit about the safety aspect of it...they just want to protect their rep as the coolest kids on the block.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Spizzzarko 0]

"You want to dish it out, but don't like it when you get it back?"

What ever dude... You keep typeing here on DZ.com and I'll go and make some jumps. This thread is worthless.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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a big name swooper comes up with the same idea, and suddenly it's the greatest idea in the world.

Why did I start this thread? Surely not because Brian Germain talked of seperate landing areas. No I started this thread because Brian explicitely made the comment that we need to communicate with each other prior to boarding the airplane. The proposed BSRs never made any mention of this. We competitive swoopers talk to each other before we board the airplane, we come up with a landing sequence and we even tell each other where in the sky we will be approaching our setup points from. It's time that we take these habits and apply them to regular loads.

Along the line of this:

1) Who's swooping the high performance lanes?
2) Where are you exiting on this load?
3) What altitude are you planning on pulling?
4) What's your canopy type and wingload?
5) What kind of approach do you plan on flying?
6) What are your canopy colors?
7) Who else is swooping?

Okay let's try to have so and so land first because (insert explaination here) followed by so and so, etc, etc, etc. Oh and finally, we're all landing in the high performance swoop lanes regardless of what the winds are doing right? Everyone understand? And for all you tradition pattern people, follow the direction set by the first one down, no s-turns or spiraling over the LZ. Okay let's do it ... saddle up.

Then we follow the plan and of course abort the swoop if for some reason someone failed to follow it and created traffic issues.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[kallend 1,623]

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Fair point, but at least wouldn't you agree that at least people are more aware given the list of tragic accidents and threads like these which might help to a certain extent?

I don't think a significant enough fraction of skydivers read DZ.COM (and similar sources) to make a lot of difference.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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more than I can say about MNealTX and kallend and many of the other people here that are good at typing on DZ.com. Those are the ones who are so blinded by a death that they will never be able to get over it and thank rationally about the situation so they choose to yell and scream on dropzone.com and clump all swoopers into one group.

.

How many times have you been hit from behind at 100' agl? I expect I have you beat on that.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[superstu 0]

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I didn't start the "real" swooper "fake" swooper thing. A fast flying canopy pilot started that.

sorry, i didn't mean for it to come off like i was talking to just you in this part of my post, it was meant for everyone.

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I talk to them too. I explain what they are doing is unsafe, but then again most that are doing it don't have that many jumps and was either not told or forgot this information.

Awesome! that is more of what we need, thank you. (i do mean this sincerely, NOT sarcastically)

be safe...stu

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[mnealtx 0]

I agree with your basic premise that there NEEDS to be more communication... I've NEVER disputed that - good post.

I'm still having a problem seeing how Brian's post is better because it mentions stuff that people SHOULD be doing anyway (discussing patterns, setting landing direction, etc)? Too bad we couldn't have had this sort of discussion on the other thread, rather than all the bitching about "that'll never work" and "y'all aren't swoopers so you can't know how we do things"...the message definitely got lost in the noise.

Canopy colors as an ID for who's swooping or not... A better idea for that, in my opinion, is something like:

"Ok, swoopers...we're going to set up SW of the tetrahedon and fly a RH pattern to the swoop lane, landing downwind, to the South. Standard jumpers, you're going to set up NE of the tetrahedron and fly a RH pattern landing North in the regular landing area."

It wouldn't be hard to plot out on an overhead of the DZ showing setup areas, pattern/landing directions and wind direction - and if you're not ALREADY doing that...why not??

It also makes it where visiting jumpers don't need to carry an index card with everyone's canopy colors written down... "Ok, red-red-blue-red-red-blue-red is gonna swoop.... crap, is that guy red-red-blue-red-red-blue-red, or red-orange-blue-red-orange-blue-red? I can't tell against the sun..."

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jlmiracle 7]

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I talk to them too. I explain what they are doing is unsafe, but then again most that are doing it don't have that many jumps and was either not told or forgot this information.

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Awesome! that is more of what we need, thank you. (i do mean this sincerely, NOT sarcastically)

My problem is, if I approach someone attempting to be a fast flying canopy pilot and does something unsafe or just plain stupid (fast or slow), they don't care what I have to say because I am not a fast flying canopy pilot (and can we go back to swooper because fast flying canopy pilot is just too much to type). I have asked the more experienced FFCP to talk to said canopy pilots and they usually do, but not all listen - til we tell their Dad.
j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 2,396]

>Okay let's try to have so and so land first because (insert
>explaination here) followed by so and so . . .

That's a great idea. However:

a) you're not going to be able to do this with the 4-way team doing back to backs and debriefing in the plane

b) that assumes everyone is willing to listen to you, and not say "whatever dude, I have way more jumps than you" or "I've done this for 7 years, I'll be fine."

c) that also assumes you don't open and see the last few tandems from the last load setting up to land.

In other words, as part of an overall DZ plan to deal with pattern conflicts, talking to people before boarding is a great way to help prevent problems. By itself, though, it is often not enough.

[Spizzzarko 0]

"I expect I have you beat on that."

Yup you do... So I can see where you have a vested interest, but when people hide behind the excuse of "Bob Holler never saw it coming" or "Danny was a swooper so now all swoopers need to be banned to a diiferent area" or even people like JLMIRACLE saying "Again, you want a quick fix - ban swooping and stupidly small canopies." does nothing to solve the problem. If you cannot seperate emotion then you are not thinking rationally.

[superstu 0]

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My problem is, if I approach someone attempting to be a fast flying canopy pilot and does something unsafe or just plain stupid (fast or slow), they don't care what I have to say because I am not a fast flying canopy pilot (and can we go back to swooper because fast flying canopy pilot is just too much to type). I have asked the more experienced FFCP to talk to said canopy pilots and they usually do, but not all listen - til we tell their Dad.

unfortunetly i have the same problem and there's not too much anyone can do when someone doesn't want to listen and already "knows" everything.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[skinnyshrek 0]

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"I expect I have you beat on that."

Yup you do... So I can see where you have a vested interest, but when people hide behind the excuse of "Bob Holler never saw it coming" or "Danny was a swooper so now all swoopers need to be banned to a diiferent area" or even people like JLMIRACLE saying "Again, you want a quick fix - ban swooping and stupidly small canopies." does nothing to solve the problem. If you cannot seperate emotion then you are not thinking rationally.

How is using bob holler an excuse? the guy was killed by an idiot doing a 270 in a congested area. As for comparing all swoopers with Danny then that is ridiculous also. BOB Holler was a damn good swooper also. He knew when and when not to execute a swoop. Some people out there do not know the difference.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[chrismgtis 0]

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there is a certain percentage of jumpers out there with such poor canopy control that they just land wherever their canopy takes them.

This is exactly why I have proposed pushing canopy skills to my DZ and we are in the process of working on programs to improve that very situation.

Far too many jumpers come right off student status and get their A license only to jump right into formations and other skills while completely ignoring canopy skills.

You're skydive is not over after your canopy is open, nor should your opportunity to learn. The most important skills you can learn are under canopy, not free flying or formations.

This is one problem I have noticed and I'm doing what I can as one individual in the community to change this. I suggest more people do the same.

I am a supporter of swooping, and of all skills that people like to learn. Don't get me wrong there. I don't want anyone to not be able to participate in any of these skills. What I personally am hoping to help change is the most important skills that people don't seem to want to learn.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[Spizzzarko 0]

When people say "Would education help Bob" when we say that education of the masses is a good possible solution. That would be hiding behind Bob's death and not thinking rationally. That quote is from someone in another of the many threads on this subject.

Grant

[skinnyshrek 0]

With people like danny education never helps. That's just the mentality of some people. It's people like yourself and ian drennan who are dedicated to swooping to try and teach others out there. granted, some people won't listen. They are the ones to look out for.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Spizzzarko 0]

True dat dude... True dat. I understand that this type of event is a horrible travisty on the entire sport but I think the solution is a little more deep routed than just seperating landing areas and making new BSR's. That is why I argue for the education side of the solution. I now see a lot of Merrit in sepperation but it has to be done propperly or it won't work. I like it when you and I can have a constructive conversation about this instead of degrading to the point of quoting each other and flinging barbed remarks back and forth...

[waltappel 1]

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True dat dude... True dat. I understand that this type of event is a horrible travisty on the entire sport but I think the solution is a little more deep routed than just seperating landing areas and making new BSR's.

I absolutely agree. As a sport we need to clean up our own act. We need to be intolerant of the Danny Pages who exist in our sport. I'm sure there are still loads of Danny worshipers out there--the same ones who either turned a blind eye toward his dangerous behavior or cheered him on while he was doing stupid shit. They helped turn him into the killer he became. It is a situation where if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

I'm all for education but I think there must be standardized landing patterns for all to follow and those who want to fly differently should have their own area to do whatever they want and those rules need to be enforced. Of course the Danny Pages of our sport will simply find other DZs to go to, but sooner or later they need to face the choice of changing their behavior or not jumping.

Just for the record, I'm ok with people swooping--just so they don't put anyone else at risk while doing it.

Walt

[skinnyshrek 0]

And i am sure the swoopers on here feel the same way. none of us want to be remembered as a danny.
it's a shame all swoopers are put in that catergory at the moment.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[mnealtx 0]

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You keep typeing here on DZ.com and I'll go and make some jumps

I guess that's more of that "adult conversation" you mention, hmm?

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This thread is worthless.

You feel it's worthless because we're not going along with your "education is the only answer" theme.

You keep talking about education... How long before it takes effect? How do you keep the people that are (obviously) not listening from killing themselves and others until the new crop of "educated" folks take over?

You talk about arguing from emotion ... what is the reaction against segregating the landing areas BUT an argument from emotion?

It's been said over and over, but I'll restate it: Your "right" to swoop in the main pattern doesn't trump anyone else's right to land safely.

In fact, I am of the opinion that it DECREASES safety because of:

1. Increased chance of collision due to unavoidable conflict with lower jumpers in the pattern and increased speed of approach.
2. Lower jumper has to watch EVERYONE in the pattern equally, rather than *primarily* the people close to their own level, which decreases their ability to safely fly their canopy due to all the extra looking around and extra planning for avoidance they're having to do.

If the swoopers are working a separate pattern and their own landing area - more power to them.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[waltappel 1]

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And i am sure the swoopers on here feel the same way. none of us want to be remembered as a danny.
it's a shame all swoopers are put in that catergory at the moment.

I don't consider all swoopers to be in that category--not by a long shot.

Walt

[skinnyshrek 0]

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And i am sure the swoopers on here feel the same way. none of us want to be remembered as a danny.
it's a shame all swoopers are put in that catergory at the moment.

I don't consider all swoopers to be in that category--not by a long shot.

Walt

No but some are, there are still some out there that it is their given right to swoop no matter what the pattern or traffic congestion.
I have aborted swooping many a time due to traffic, in fact this week-end. On the ground i was like fuck, i couldn't swoop because of that canopy. Then i thought to myself what a dick way of thinking. BUT, they're idiots out there that will swoop regardless if they see a canopy or not.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?