pwln 0 #26 June 7, 2007 I use Mil Spec rubber bands on my stows. Here is 1 of many links (I googled) http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=Rubberbands&SortBy= Edit to add, The spec is MIL-R-1832 Here is another link. http://books.google.com/books?id=2PopFBjLZV8C&pg=RA3-PA118&lpg=RA3-PA118&dq=%22mil+r+1832%22+spec+rubber&source=web&ots=lbuSwetZ7V&sig=4PJK1WbPaKgMZDvlrhoe52j6H6w Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #27 June 7, 2007 QuoteYes Care to elaborate? Please? 34 years and 3400 jumps is a lot of experience but not enough of an explanation of how you arrive at your statement. I'm jumping tube stows now, but if they're an accident waiting to happen, I'm all ears. My second rig is plain ole' black rubber bands like you'll find on any DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 3 #28 June 7, 2007 bag locks happen.. both on tube stows, black bands, brown bands, whatever bands, they happen.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #29 June 7, 2007 But the idea is that bands that are harder to break are more likely to cause (or fail to break in the event of) a bag lock. I use crappy rubber bands that break all the time for that reason. No idea if there's any data to back up the claim, but I knew a guy that had a bag lock attributed to tube stoes when i was a student so i haven't liked the idea of them ever since... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 3 #30 June 7, 2007 haha, there was some discussion about this at the DZ last weekend actually. packer/rigger uses them. .. It is true that one can get it, I havent personally seen a bag lock of any kind. but, those who only use brown bands will say because they have seen baglock on the others, and vise versa. ..CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #31 June 7, 2007 QuoteWe can decrease the chances of bag lock by using only Mil Spec. Rubber Stow Bands (common. standard tan rubber bands) or we can increase our chances of bag lock by using Non Mil Spec. Rubber Bands like the red or black rubber bands, O ring type, tube stows or oddly shaped Stow Bands. I agree that your chances of a bag lock are increased with tube stows and the like, but I have a BIG problem with those that do not acknowledge there is a trade-off. Rubber stow bands (as locking stows) greatly increase your chances of having an out of sequence deployment. This is much more likely because the bands break SO easily, they are under great stress while the bag is being lifted off your back with the canopy then falling out before line stretch. Locking stows should not be so easy to break. Even the Jumpshack isn't comfortable with just a couple rubber bands as locking stows for their reserve speed-bag. I would much rather have a bag lock than an out of sequence and explosive opening.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #32 June 7, 2007 QuoteI knew a guy that had a bag lock attributed to tube stoes Bag locks should be attributed to crappy packing. There is a reason why we don't trust a couple weak rubber bands on a reserve freebag. Bag lock mals have still happened with rubber bands, they don't always break to prevent the mal.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #33 June 7, 2007 Quotebag locks happen.. both on tube stows, black bands, brown bands, whatever bands, they happen. Of course they do. And premature openings occur with every kind of container, and canopies tear regardless of the brand or fabric. That's not the discussion here. I'm of the opinion that I want to use tube stoes because of concern for out of sequence deployments, they wear longer, they seem to hold form whereas rubber bands stretch and become loose more easily (making out of sequence more likely). I also recognize that microline and small tube stoes don't mix, and am aware (and comfortable) that the round nature of tube stoes may not have as much contact with the lines. What I'm looking for is any reasonable data that says the small mil-spec rubber bands cause less line dump, bag lock or any other malfunction vs Silibands, tube stoes, or the larger black bands found everywhere. In other words, I'm aware of the arguments against rubber bands, but would like to hear a "why"/experience vs an opinion tossed out on the table. Wouldn't you like to have more information as well? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #34 June 7, 2007 Quote Rubber stow bands (as locking stows) greatly increase your chances of having an out of sequence deployment. " This is much more likely because the bands break SO easily, they are under great stress while the bag is being lifted off your back with the canopy then falling out before line stretch" I do not understand your usage of the term “Out of Sequence Deployment” in your statement. I am respectfully making an inquiry as to what exactly you mean? My understanding is that an “Out of Sequence Deployment” occurs when the closing loop breaks or the closing pin is unintentionally extracted, thus opening the container prior to the PC being released which has nothing at all to do with the type of material that is used to stow the suspension lines to the “Deployment Bag”. I have only around 500 jumps with Tube Stows (surgical tubing type material) with no incidence, but was cautioned by a couple very seasoned and experienced riggers (each with decades of familiarity) as to the possibility that this may increase my chance of having a “Bag Lock” malfunction which gave me reason to reevaluate my equipment configuration choice. After close consideration, I switched back to rubber-bands. That being said, prior to my use of Tube Stows I had experienced a “Bag Lock” malfunction which I did not pack, but the packer I was using was inexperienced and was utilizing sloppy line stowing techniques. BTW, the "Bag Lock" did not stand me up. What you are describing - “the canopy falling out before line stretch” is what I was taught is referred to as “Line Dump” no? To assist in preventing this occurrence from taking place, it was suggested to use properly configured bands and to keep up with the maintenance of them as well. I have also heard it said that “real line dump will kill or maim”, which makes sense to me as I can only imagine how violent this type of malfunction could be. Please forgive my lack of understanding if my information is incorrect, I am only inquiring to better understand the potential issues that may arise and to increase my body of knowledge… -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #35 June 7, 2007 Not at you directly shermanator though I posted this in response to your post because I like your response. Once at WFFC, my friend wanted to pack a baglock, so he took a ribbon type pullup cord and tied the bag closed. The malfunction malfunctioned. The canopy opened as normal. The ribbon type pullup was shredded upon deployment. I gave him some 800lb Dacron and it worked. What I really want to say is that one should think for oneself. If one believes the "authority's word" is the law then you are a nice, well behaved little obedient servant of the master. Move on, nothing to see here. Nice, well behaved little obedient servant of the master will never progress our sport. BrainWashedNotThinkingForMyselfWinstonsTasteGoodLikeACigaretteShould. Question everything or become an obedient puppy for ever! take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #36 June 7, 2007 QuoteQuote Rubber stow bands (as locking stows) greatly increase your chances of having an out of sequence deployment. " This is much more likely because the bands break SO easily, they are under great stress while the bag is being lifted off your back with the canopy then falling out before line stretch" I do not understand your usage of the term “Out of Sequence Deployment” in your statement. I am respectfully making an inquiry as to what exactly you mean? My understanding is that an “Out of Sequence Deployment” occurs when the closing loop breaks or the closing pin is unintentionally extracted, thus opening the container prior to the PC being released which has nothing at all to do with the type of material that is used to stow the suspension lines to the “Deployment Bag”. I have only around 500 jumps with Tube Stows (surgical tubing type material) with no incidence, but was cautioned by a couple very seasoned and experienced riggers (each with decades of familiarity) as to the possibility that this may increase my chance of having a “Bag Lock” malfunction which gave me reason to reevaluate my equipment configuration choice. After close consideration, I switched back to rubber-bands. That being said, prior to my use of Tube Stows I had experienced a “Bag Lock” malfunction which I did not pack, but the packer I was using was inexperienced and was utilizing sloppy line stowing techniques. BTW, the "Bag Lock" did not stand me up. What you are describing - “the canopy falling out before line stretch” is what I was taught is referred to as “Line Dump” no? To assist in preventing this occurrence from taking place, it was suggested to use properly configured bands and to keep up with the maintenance of them as well. I have also heard it said that “real line dump will kill or maim”, which makes sense to me as I can only imagine how violent this type of malfunction could be. Please forgive my lack of understanding if my information is incorrect, I am only inquiring to better understand the potential issues that may arise and to increase my body of knowledge… - By "out of sequence deployment", I mean the canopy coming out before line stretch due to the locking stows breaking. That is not the only type of out of sequence deployment, but the others aren't relevant to this discussion. I avoided the use of the term "line dump" because some take it to mean the non-locking stows dumping their lines, with the term "bag dump" meaning that the locking stows break or slip off, releasing the canopy before line stretch. I suppose I should have just said "canopy coming out of d-bag before line stretch due to locking stows breaking" to avoid any confusion about what terminology means what. I firmly believe I'm better off to avoid locking stows breaking. The trade off is clear to me. I make my own tube stows really cheap.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #37 June 7, 2007 Once again I get to learn from someone who was skydiving back when I was watching Bugs Bunny Saturday Mornings on ABC (now I have it all on DVD). I think that perhaps there is more to the equation than just the material being utilized, but also it’s maintenance and the way it is utilized as well (sloppy packing). Some can say that Tubing creates Bag Locks without taking into consideration how sloppy the packing was when the Bag Lock in question was caused. It is like the differences of opinion concerning how to handle a PCIT, it is hard to tell if the entanglement was created because the Cutaway handle was or was not pulled first or unstable body position at reserve deployment time without video. I have had 2 reserve rides packed in short time frame by the same pacer due to sloppy packing, I have packed most of my openings without packing a malfunction severe enough to cutaway yet (knock on wood). That is because I believe I maintain my gear pack correctly and utilize good body position at deployment time. The gear is awful reliable when use within its design parameters. Thanks for your time -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerousmind86 0 #38 June 7, 2007 Sup everyone. forgive my newb status but this incedent took place up at the DZ I frequent. eted71's rig was a rip cord student rig with a spring pc. any ho, I was driving our bus to our alternate landing field so I saw the whole thing take place after i got there. An instructor had just landed and we were watching him in freefall with wis instructor. He pulled when he said he pulled and we though he had a pilot chute in tow because it was just trailing behind him. Which accounts for him not standing up. We realized after however that it must have been the bag or lines of the chute caught on the inside of the container somehow or another because he had no pin on his rig for the pc to "tow" from. so we called it a bag lock. It wasn't a pc in tow or a full line strecth baglock either but we called it a bag lock. it was pretty much a total mal with the spring pc out. thats all-- peace--ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #39 June 7, 2007 I think that a PC in tow does not require that a pin still be in place. If the PC is in tow, with the bag not out, then it is a PC in tow no matter why the bag isn't out.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerousmind86 0 #40 June 7, 2007 logical thinking devil. huh no matter the reason it happened i'm glad my buddy ted pulled is damn reserve. it freaked me to watch him fall like a son of a bitch!ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #41 June 8, 2007 video of baglock from out of seq deployment.... bag came out before pc. notice the container open from the exit. the baglock stood him up and he mantained almost same fall rate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddYYoHhzjA&NR=1HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zing 2 #42 June 8, 2007 So, it sounds like you had a pilot chute hesitation/pilot chute in tow and that the main bag may, or may not have come out of the main container ... so you fired your spare. Seems to me you did just what you needed to do to save yourself, and you'll get to jump again. Ya done good! I've both seen and experienced similiar circumstances. Sometimes it's near impossible to figure out exactly what caused it to happen. There is one question that comes to mind though ... what happened to your main parachute after you pulled the S.O.S. handle and the reserve opened? Did it stay with you, or fall away? Just curious.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eted71 0 #43 June 8, 2007 Hey Andy, thanks for the backup! I'm glad I pulled my reserve too! Ted Zing, my main and D-bag and everything attached to it went bye bye when I pulled SOS handle and still hasn't been found. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #44 June 8, 2007 QuoteHey Andy, thanks for the backup! I'm glad I pulled my reserve too! Ted Zing, my main and D-bag and everything attached to it went bye bye when I pulled SOS handle and still hasn't been found. There was video of the event? Is there any way you can capture and post it so we can get all of our questions answered? -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerousmind86 0 #45 June 8, 2007 no video at all. there was just the two instructors and me and ted. no one was wearing a camera. sorry man ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hukturn 0 #46 June 9, 2007 Easy way to clear up container lock -vs- bag lock; eted71 - Was the main parachite still in the container when you landed? I am not so sure about the stow band arguement. I mean, my unfounded tendency would be to believe that a round tube stow would promote the possibility of decreasing baglock due to the roll of the band (it is round). Whereas the flat rubberband will provide more friction due to a larger surface area (rubber bands are flat) against the line groupings. Of course, I have spent my last 1000 jumps using only two locking stows and a pocket on my bag, so what do I care? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #47 June 9, 2007 It really looks like we will never know what exactly happened.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevino 0 #48 June 12, 2007 My first mal was a baglock also on around jump 15 or so. I waited too long, maybe 6 to 8 seconds and by that time I was spinning horizontally. It does not take long to build up a very high speed spin and you are most likely not going to be hanging vertically under the lines and bag. I have had 9 mals to date but that one was my worst. Make sure to react quickly to avoid building up too much of a high speed spin. It is scary shit! Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
