falxori 0 #1 June 16, 2007 it seems that our DZO and management has decided to change their business case and turn the DZ into a tandem factory. it basically means that normal skydivers are not really welcomed and will be able to jump only in order to fill any free seats on the load. this might be the end of a wonderful community in which i have found a lot of very good friends and looked forward to spending time with on weekends. we will not fold our wings but this is a dark day for those who love the free skies... Ori "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LloydDobbler 2 #2 June 16, 2007 Bummer, Ori. I guess the only thing I can say is, hope someone else will step up to the plate and give the old DZ a run for their money (in spite of all the complications and grief associated with that...yes, for those experienced in DZ management, I know that tandems are where a DZ makes its money in the first place...). Best of luck. Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #3 June 16, 2007 That really sucks.....I know what that is like all too well.. the local DZ I started back into the sport at was like that... getting bumped from loads for tandems...plane sitting on the ground waiting for the nest load of tandems.. when a full load of RW or freefly could EASILY have been fit inbetween the tandem loads... but nooooooo that might inconvienience the tandem student.. they might have to wait 5 or 10 minutesThe new DZ we started last year.. the tandems got in line with everyone else.................which is infinitely more fair to those who keep the DZ going year round when the weahter is bad...and bring friends and co-workers to their \DZ to show them what skydiving is about... rather than taking them to the place where the tandems are just a piece of meet to be exploited for as much money as the DZO can squeeze out of them in the shortest amount of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #4 June 16, 2007 Quote it seems that our DZO and management has decided to change their business case and turn the DZ into a tandem factory. it basically means that normal skydivers are not really welcomed and will be able to jump only in order to fill any free seats on the load. this might be the end of a wonderful community in which i have found a lot of very good friends and looked forward to spending time with on weekends. we will not fold our wings but this is a dark day for those who love the free skies... Ori Sorry about thatOn a Happy note your DZ wasn't the first so you don't owe any beerOTOH This is the direction the sport is heading. As long as the DZO's have enough people with rateing to run their business, fun jumpers will slowly fade awayIts the DZO's DZ & business and they have every right to call the shots, if we like it or not.OTOH the new DZ that opened up on the other side of the border. Is it a tandem factory also? and how far is it? Sorry couldn't resist me bad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #5 June 16, 2007 QuoteIts the DZO's DZ & business and they have every right to call the shots, if we like it or not never said it wasn't their right, and from a strict business point of view i can see the logic (more money, less risk of being shut down because of an accident, etc) but it doesn't make it less sad. especially when we don't have a lot of other options. the 2nd DZ is small and questionable in terms of safety and operations and the other option is going abroad. maybe someone will try to open a "community" DZ like the ones that exist in sweden (although i'm not sure exactly how things work up there) O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #6 June 17, 2007 When tandems stop coming, we're fucked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #7 June 17, 2007 QuoteWhen tandems stop coming, we're fucked. Just curious if anyone has done a data run of how many: Tandems Static IAD students turn into skydivers. I'd imagine the answer is tandems by far, but curious. I don't understand why so many hate tandems. They help keep the cost of fun jumps down, help provide/fund turbine aircraft, and provide a constant revenue stream that other sources no longer provide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #8 June 17, 2007 I disagree. OK I wanted to call bullshit but I'm being polite. Take away the profit motive (commercial DZ) and presto you don't need tandems. Is it harder to run an Otter? Hell yes. Skydiving was around long before tandems though. Jumping out of airplanes started because people wanted to have fun, they formed clubs and improved skills through competition. Tandems help keep things affordable but they are NOT critical to the sport. Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #9 June 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhen tandems stop coming, we're fucked. Just curious if anyone has done a data run of how many: Tandems Static IAD students turn into skydivers. I'd imagine the answer is tandems by far, but curious. I don't understand why so many hate tandems. They help keep the cost of fun jumps down, help provide/fund turbine aircraft, and provide a constant revenue stream that other sources no longer provide. I don't dispute that, but I dispute that we'd necessarily be fucked. There was a time, not too long ago, when tandems did not yet exist in the sport. The sport survived. Tandems have their place, and it's an important one, but there not the sine qua non of the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #10 June 17, 2007 QuoteI don't dispute that, but I dispute that we'd necessarily be fucked. There was a time, not too long ago, when tandems did not yet exist in the sport. The sport survived. Tandems have their place, and it's an important one, but there not the sine qua non of the sport. And during that time the way newbies got their thrill was to do S/L with rounds at the end of the day. The experienced skydivers would sit back, pop and beer, and watch them pummel in 10 to a pass. Perris, it's reported, would do 60 S/L students on a given day and it was the best entertainment around. It was cheap in price for the student too. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #11 June 17, 2007 What aircraft do they use? Perhaps you'll be lucky and they'll upgrade to something that will be a bit beyond their capacity to fill with tandems, allowing tandems and regulars to jump. I know it is a long shot, but maybe.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #12 June 17, 2007 I dont' agree the sport would be fucked either, but in the same breath, every post relates to how "it used to be." Yeah well...it "used to be" that class 5 kayaking was for extremists, so was downhill mountain biking. Used to be that paragliding, hanggliding, windsurfing, kiteboarding, custom-chopper building, trips to the Amazon, Everest climbs, freeclimbing, BASE jumping, motoX and similar activities were for the fringes of society (as was skydiving). Today, most of these activities are mainstream, and all competing for the same personality, same dollar, and same time slot. IMO, until the USPA and manufacturers pull their heads out of their backsides and start to actually market the sport to compete with climbing and other sports, that's where this sport is truly going to remain challenged. My group shoots sports for two cable providers, and one thing we've noticed being on the inside of the sport is how much money the industry spends on ads, advertorials, image placement, and other publicity to support their sport. Our sport isn't doing that. In fact, I've witnessed some resistance to taking this approach when I was at PIA and had discussions on this very topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #13 June 17, 2007 Quote What aircraft do they use? Perhaps you'll be lucky and they'll upgrade to something that will be a bit beyond their capacity to fill with tandems, allowing tandems and regulars to jump. I know it is a long shot, but maybe sadly no. they are actually selling one of the two planes (selling the C208 and keeping the C208B) so capacity will go down too. still no "official" word from the DZ but after talking to several "insiders", the rumors are pretty solid... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #14 June 17, 2007 Quote Quote I don't dispute that, but I dispute that we'd necessarily be fucked. There was a time, not too long ago, when tandems did not yet exist in the sport. The sport survived. Tandems have their place, and it's an important one, but there not the sine qua non of the sport. And during that time the way newbies got their thrill was to do S/L with rounds at the end of the day. The experienced skydivers would sit back, pop and beer, and watch them pummel in 10 to a pass. Perris, it's reported, would do 60 S/L students on a given day and it was the best entertainment around. It was cheap in price for the student too. ltdiver We jumped in the sticks only 3 s/l per pass at the end of the day. No Brew on DZNot sure what a c-182 cost today, but they only need a grass runway some gas a driver diver and 4 jumpers maybe 8 for turn around loads. The TM's, AFF tunnels, packers, toilets, buildings, indoor packing, video, pro skydivers, 1000jumps/yr, big ways can ago away . The hard core fun jumpers can still have fun out of a cessna and jump 12 month's/yr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #15 June 17, 2007 Quote Quote What aircraft do they use? Perhaps you'll be lucky and they'll upgrade to something that will be a bit beyond their capacity to fill with tandems, allowing tandems and regulars to jump. I know it is a long shot, but maybe sadly no. they are actually selling one of the two planes (selling the C208 and keeping the C208B) so capacity will go down too. still no "official" word from the DZ but after talking to several "insiders", the rumors are pretty solid... O Wow, if they can keep two planes turning, I'm surprised they'd reduce their capacity, and graft the fun-jumpers out of the picture. If I were the DZO, and I was facing that situation, I would start a second "company", sell one of the planes to that outfit, find a second corner at the airfield, and run two DZs at the same airfield. That would limit liability and keep operations, and cash flow at roughly what their at today. So it might seem anyway...Sorry about that. Meanwhile, if you decide to go to the other DZ in Israel, then you and your friends add to their atmosphere, their family, and perhaps the perceptions you noted earlier will change.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jose 0 #16 June 17, 2007 *sigh* Amazon, Amazon, Amazon.....you just don't ever accept things for what they really are do you? Your attempt to bash the DZ that "bumped" you off for good, really is getting old hat. You need to find something new to complain about. Of course, the DZ that you are referring to isn't anything like that now, if it was at all in the first place. See, we have a really cool new Grand Caravan that goes up with as little as 6 jumpers, or as mixed as birdman, tandems, rw, freefly at 2 different landing areas on the same jump run. Of course, you wouldn't know that, would you. As for the DZ that was started last year......its as good as done for the most part. The attempt to start the DZ with a turbine didn't work out so well after all. Especially when you don't advertise good enough to even fill the plane with tandems. Then again, if you could....you didn't even have enough TI's or tandem rigs to do the job in the first place. It is too bad the place didn't work out, I loved the plane and spaceball jumps there. Good vibe, cheap slots, awesome turbine....but poor management. Hence why it failed. Moral to the story here is, a DZ that caters more to the up jumpers, than they do the tandems (where the sustainable money is), will either struggle to exist, or fail completely. It's too bad the the Israeli DZ has pulled the punch they did. Hopefully they will reconsider their approach and find a solution that works for everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #17 June 18, 2007 Jose...Jose... Jose. They are so fortunate to get a professional of your calibre on their staff. It appears you have turned the whole situation at that DZ around for them. Bravo Yes NWSKYDIVERS little Porter DZ has a very good vibe and with the rise in fuel prices the jumps cost a little more now. We would probably have more jumpers if other jumpers in the area who will not come to our little dz would not keep passing around the word of how unsafe we are and that we are no longer there. When the weather improves all of us non professional jumpers will be back there having fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #18 June 18, 2007 I heard you weren't there. Is that true or not true? I didn't see anything unsafe up there. In fact, we plan to jump there some more if you're open this season. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #19 June 18, 2007 Quote I heard you weren't there. Is that true or not true? I didn't see anything unsafe up there. In fact, we plan to jump there some more if you're open this season. AMAZON The PNW wants to know about the porter DZ. We heard the same rumor. Unsafe DZ Give us a safe pilot we can look after ourselvesAnyone from the tacoma area driving up and camping out for the weekend who wants a rider to split gas? Have tent for one to travel.send us a PM (We're a babe) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #20 June 18, 2007 Quote someone else will step up to the plate and give the old DZ a run for their money We are running for money? OK, let's see where the money is... Math 101 If a DZO has the last two places in the last load of the day to fill and the net revenue of a tandem (after paying the TI and the cost of the rig) is 3.5 times that of two funjumpers, what would be the sensible thing to do, from a business POV? Wanna fly first class? Pay first class. Just face it guys, at best you are the DZO's hobby*) ... *) Doesn't matter if it costs a few bucks but it shouldn't interfere with one's livelyhood... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #21 June 18, 2007 I talked to pilot DUDE this afternoon. The weather has been uncooperative so far but this coming weekend its supposed to be a GO.....apparently there are a bunch of tandems coming....but for some reason.. we all get to jump there and have fun doing it. Funny dat.. the tandems have fun....the experienced jumpers have fun...isnt that what a DZ is supposed to be about????? FUN More info as I get it this weekNow.. all I need is a reserve repack...gotta get ahold of Jeffe this week. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LloydDobbler 2 #22 June 18, 2007 Quote Quote someone else will step up to the plate and give the old DZ a run for their money We are running for money? OK, let's see where the money is... Math 101 If a DZO has the last two places in the last load of the day to fill and the net revenue of a tandem (after paying the TI and the cost of the rig) is 3.5 times that of two funjumpers, what would be the sensible thing to do, from a business POV? And then there's Reading Comprehension 101: Read the complete post, then respond, instead of picking one single phrase from one sentence and ignoring the rest of it... (Here's the rest of that first post of mine, since you missed it the first time): Quote ...(in spite of all the complications and grief associated with that...yes, for those experienced in DZ management, I know that tandems are where a DZ makes its money in the first place...). Normally I would assume I hadn't expressed myself well and restate my point, trying to word it a bit more clearly, but I don't really think I could say it any more clearly than that. It's pretty obvious. (& not that restating it would matter in a place where people tend to read what they want to read/hear what they want to hear, so long as it supports their soapbox/flame/knee-jerk reactions...).Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #23 June 18, 2007 Quote Read the complete post, then respond You are incorrect in your assumption that I didn't read the complete post, before responding. Then again, maybe you didn't like my response. You'r willing to pay 3.5 times the amount of money for your ticket, compared to what you are paying now? You like packing on carpet, big screen TV to watch yourself on video etcetera? Go thank the next overweight tandempassenger you'll meet - she's paying for it... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #24 June 18, 2007 Just face it guys, at best you are the DZO's hobby... Quote Yup...and it will be the death of us yet! I'm not real good at math OR reading, but I do comprehend that we're in the midst of an economic bubble that like the .com bubble is going to eventually burst. If it happens sooner rather than later we fun jumpers may have a chance, but if things keep on the way they are...with the membership numbers dwindling...we'll lose what voice we have in government and the sport will go sideways in a heartbeat. And that will affect tandem operations as well. Are the DZO's being a bit shortsighted in grabbing the quick buck? Maybe, but can't blame them, money is why they are in business. But we fun jumpers, their 'hobby' as you put it...also buy gear etc. we're a steady financial resource that goes beyond the weekend credit card slip. We keep the organization (USPA) going...we keep the parachute, helmet and jumpsuit makers in business, we 'advertise' our sport in the bar, at work...everywhere, bringing in a percentage of the student $'s ...though some what indirectly. Are lift tickets going to go up? If we want to enjoy the same or similar amenities... You BET! Any way you cut, it's only economically sound. Here's a scenario to give some though to~ Say a couple of few passengers slip the harness again and big brother shuts down ALL tandem ops for an undetermined period of time... If we have a strong voice and can apply some leverage in the right areas, it can get turned on again, but lacking that, the industry could dry up pretty fast. (remember 9-11 and the airlines getting a no fly order, only the fear of congress having to subsidize the air carriers caused them to turn it back on, that kind of power we ain't got) How long before the turbines are replaced by 182's again...I can only hope some kind of 'compromise' is found before it's too late...in the LONG RUN, fun jumpers and tandems NEED each other to survive. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
