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MiniClaire

Can jump after first refusal?

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Sounds like you need to find a new dropzone. This sounds like nonsense. I think they said that to try to 'motivate' you to jump :)
If you want to jump again....start from scratch and go to another Dropzone.

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I don't think that that is right, maybe it just applies to that DZ. I've seen many first jumpers that refuse to go when the door is opened. You cannot make someone jump if they don't want to (the exeception is where they have already climbed out and it would be more dangerous to try and get back in). The majority go on the second attempt and quite a few have stayed on in the sport.
Insurance has very little to do with it as you have signed a waiver and you only have 3rd party cover (ie. damage to other peoples property) IIRC.
I find it strange that any DZ would refuse to let you try again just for that, although you may have to pay for another ticket.
If it is a case that you did something that the instructors thought was very dangerous, they might be reluctant to let you jump.

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I would suggest that this is unusual and you shuld talk to the DZO. My wife refused to go on her first RAPS course and the next day they were encouraging her back into the air.

I woukld also suggest that you maybe do a tandem. If you build this up then it will get harder each time you try. At least with a tandem you will know what you are in for when you go back to RAPS.

Just a thought...

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

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That's bollocks for a start. Jumping is your decision. No instructor or DZ I know would penalise you for deciding not to do it. They'd rather you rode the plane down than force you out and find out then that you're not ready... ;)

Find a new DZ would be my advice. There are loads of Brits on here who you can ask for opinions about the different DZs in your area.

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It's not TOTAL bollocks. I have heard of similar things happening in the past. The reason I have been given is that on refusing to jump you can become a hazard to the instructor and the aircraft. Imagine you are in a small plane say a C182 and as first out you refuse. It makes it very hard for the instructor to dispatch the other students (don't forget that there are static lines around the cabin too).

1 possible solution would be to bring the plane down with everyone on board, but centres would not want to do this if possible (read people can jump safely) due to cost.

I have not heard that someone can't try their first jump again due to insurance before, but I have heard that some places give you 1 chance (maybe 2 if they will do a go around once the others have left) due to the problems you present to the instructor and the operation.

I suspect a lot of it depends on the centre.

Blue skies

Paul

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Not being allowed to jump at that DZ again is up to the CCI - Fine. It's their decision. I have no big problem with that and I accept your first argument about cost in bringing the plane down.
However, telling the student that they will never be able to take a course again anywhere and will never be able to get insured is simply lying and should not be tolerated.

It's scare tactics and is way out of order in my opinion.

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Thanks for everyone's advice... the instructor didn't say anything about it when we were in the air, he flew around again, still I didn't jump (really wish I had now!), then when we were back on the ground he told me that the brit skydiving association wouldn't insure me now so I'd never get to try again... except maybe on an AFF in another country... needless to say I was pretty surprised! If I'd known that was the case I certainly wouldn't have attempted to jump that day as I really didn't feel ready, my training had been a month ago and we'd had a really short re-fresh session, so if I'd known it was 'now or never' I would have not gone up (or maybe just grit my teeth and jumped!)

Anyway maybe I should contact the brit skydiving association to ask. Tandem is a good idea, I did one last year which is what got me interested, but if I sign up for another course maybe I should do a tandem just before I start, then I'll be itching to get up there again and the nerves won't have time to kick in!

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I think I have an idea about what they were referring to.

Part of the cost of your jump course will cover the cost of temporary BPA insurance. This is mandatory and covers you for third party liability up to £2 mil. It costs £24 and is good for one month only.

You are not permitted to jump without BPA insurance so perhaps he was indicating that your insurance had now run out. Surely though the answer to that would be another £24 - not a lifetime ban?

I can't now remember how student membership works. It's been some time since I needed it. I seem to remember only being required to fully join the BPA when I got onto freefall... but I can't find a document detailing "student membership" and the lifespan of the insurnace offered to student jumpers.

Hmmm... instructors out there? How long is the BPA insurance good for on a student jump? Could that be what has happened here?

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How long is the BPA insurance good for on a student jump? Could that be what has happened here?



Not an instructor, but I seem to remember that the temporary student membership is good for one year or until the student gets progressed to freefall (RAPS - I think it is level 3 for AFF)

Vicki

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Just out of curiosity I'm wondering which dropzone you were at who told you this. Not sure about the rules/legalities etc of this but I do believe that some dropzone are more supportive to students than others. I had some right trouble after refusing to jump on my 27th static line jump (in the UK). My home dropzone at the time would have let me jump again but for various reasons I did not want to jump there so I went to another dropzone (where I had jumped before) and they would not let me jump there until I had done another jump at my home DZ where i had refused. Anyway, i had had enough of static line and went to spain a few months later to do AFF. I am now level 3 AFF but not jumping again until next year.

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I did a RAPS course intro weekend last year, but at the end just couldn't jump, and was told that this would mean that I would never be able to take a course again, as would not be able to get insurance. Does anyone know if this is true or not? I am in the UK.

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Hi MiniClaire,
I know where you are coming from. I used to be a regular at a particular DZ in the UK and was doing a Hop n' Pop from 5K, with SL students being distpatched at 3K when the exact same thing happened. When asked to get in the door the student in question asked to remain in the the plane. At the time the instructor seemed to accept this. Back on the ground and within earshot of the student I heard the instructor and CCI cursing the student (I know it is hard to believe). The student later offered to pay for another jump ticket but was refused out right by both the instructor and CCI and told to *u*k off and find another DZ.
I accept its possible for something to have been said between the student and instructor after I exited, but I find this sort of unproffesional behaviour completely unacceptable. No-one is perfect and not everyone is capable of getting out of the plane on attempt number 1. Like has been said above, unless there was some dangerous behaviour I feel everyone should be given a second chance.

I say 'used' to be a regular at this DZ because it was not the only instance of unprofessionalism I have oberserved from the CCI and some instructors. I would rather take my money somewhere else. As I would recommend to you MiniClaire as soon as you are successful in your first jump.

Warwick University Skydiving Club

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Write to the BPA, this is not the way anyone should react towards a student. It sounds like the instructors at this dropzone need to take a chill pill and start enjoying their jobs again instead of scaring students and giving false information. You should write to the bpa and ask them to follow this up for you. You are a student and should be encouraged in to jumping not put off it that you have to go onto a internet forum to find out about it.
They sound like wankers and do not give up because of these people, find yourself another dz and join our lovely sport. You will find some of the greatest human beings in this sport.

You should do a tandem first though as you will then realise there is nothing to be affraid of.;)


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Sounds like porkies to me. A mate of mine refused about 3 times... still got his 'A' though... with a bit of patience and time from him and his instructors.

I also refused to jump once and it's been no problems. Find yourself a friendler DZ!

Good luck and stick with it... the reward is priceless! :)

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BPA Student (P6) membership costs £23 this year and is valid for one calendar year from date of issue or until the student progresses to freefall (like Vicki said). It is required for all solo or tandem student descents or training at a BPA centre.

Once the P6 membership has expired it should be converted to BPA full membership (the cost of which is consistent from April to August, and then starts to decrease pro-rata as you get further into the membership year which runs to the start of each april). The conversion fee during November this year is around £58.

Some centres may simply issue a new P6 membership if you've had a significant lapse in jumping/training and are essentially "starting again".

You will need to do a full course again, and if going to a new centre it would be worth mentioning to them your past experiences and bringing along your log card. They may want to check with the previous instructor if there was some safety reason why they suggested you shouldn't come back but it will be at up to the instructor training your new course whether to clear you for your first descent.

Based purely on your description of events though it sounds more like they couldn't be bothered, since if there was a safety reason they'd more likely have told you that than give you false info about insurance.

You can find centres near you from the BPA website (www.bpa.org.uk) and also contact details to let them know about your experience last year if you want to go down that route. Although I would first recommend speaking to the Club Chief Instructor or manager at the DZ involved to see what they say. It may be an instructor problem rather than one affecting the whole DZ and it's often best to try and handle things locally first..

Get some thermals and book on a course this week!

Best of Luck,

Sweep
----
Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho..

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1 possible solution would be to bring the plane down with everyone on board, but centres would not want to do this if possible (read people can jump safely) due to cost.



Another possible solution would be to shuffle the students around inn the plane while the plane is doing another go around. It can be done. I have seen it done on a few occasions.

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There is nothing to stop you jumping at another DZ but your would probably have to go through there training course to satisfy them that you have learned all you need to.
The only way you would be prevented from jumping anywhere is if your actions were dangerous.
At our centre we have had people refuse 1 or more times and have gone on to get their cat 8.
Even in a C172 (like C182 but slightly smaller) there is enought space to shuffle if number 1 refuses. All that happens then is the instructor has to land with his student.
The decision as to wheter of not the jumper who refused is allowed to jump again (at that centre) would be made after a full debrief ,additional retrainiing and assesment as to wheter they would refuse again. Any centre not doing this does not deserve your custom.
You should be given a second chance FREE, any further refusals should then be billed at the normal student rate, that way the centre does not lose (but the instructor may miss his 'free lob' and give you a good kicking behind the packing shed [unofficially of course]).

Remember then instructor can stop you jumping but CAN'T MAKE YOU. ALL jumper should check just before exiting the aircraft & choose to jump, not just because the instrustor/JM said GO.

It's OK to be scared when jumping out of a plane, the time to stop is when you are not.


Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

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Thanks for the advice guys. I just assumed that the instructors knew what they were talking about (not a crazy assumption to make!) so I didn't look into it again until recently, but I will definately investigate more.

I guess one of the things that made me not jump on the day was that we'd done our whole course with one guy, who was very experienced and reassuring and knew us all, but when it came to the jump he decided to be the guy on the ground, not in the plane, so the guy on the plane we'd met v briefly and he wasn't nearly as experienced (about 250 jumps compared with 4000 in the first guy), and said he hadn't been up with students that many times, which is obviously fine if you want to jump but not so reassuring if you're not sure! And when I didn't jump he had to ask the pilot what to do next because he didn't know... which didn't fill me with confidence! So there I was, looking over the door of the plane, and this virtual stranger was saying 'you'll be fine' and I was thinking 'who the hell are you?!'

Anyway, I was very scared of heights at that time so maybe skydiving wasn't the best sport to try out, but since then I've been taking lessons as a pilot so that has made me a lot calmer about them- and also made me have to accept that one day I might have to jump out a plane if the piloting goes a bit wrong!

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:)

Unfortunately, it's not uncommon that you may be despatched by a different instructor than the one who trained you either. The good news is that they have both passed the same course to allow them to jumpmaster students and even instructors have a first or second time with students! ;) The instructor may have been nervous as well...

However, the nervousness and inexperience of the instructor doesn't excuse the bad information you were given. Contact the BPA ([email protected]) to find out what your situation is and let us know the result :)
Maybe someone should suggest to the 'new' jumpmaster that telling his students 'I've not done this many times before" is a bad idea from a confidence point of view - even if he was joking :D:D:D

Always remember, you do not have to exit the aeroplane if you don't want to on a normal jump.

Keep smiling, and I hope you get to make another jump.

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Sorry to loose you to the flying side (perhaps you will become a jump pilot at a DZ) at least you haven't gone over to 'the dark side' (microlights).

Pilots usually fly quite high above the ground so won't you still be afraid?

They say taking off & flying is easy, landing a plane is the hard part. That said, it makes sense to get out!

My fear is not of heights but of falling, sounds daft but it scares the living daylights out of me looking out of the window of a multistorey block of flats if i'm above the third floor (fear kick in above 25ft). Skydiving doesn't involve falling, you float and the ground come UP to meet you (at about 120 mph).

Only you know what is best for you.

A brave person walks away from things they don't want to do, a fool does them.


Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

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Also remember, that if you're not happy with the revision training you've been given that day, if you think it was too short, if you don't remember covering aircraft emergencies, or you aren't happy with your malfunction drills or your exits or whatever - please please please DO say something to your instructors and/or CCI.
This will help you out when it comes to jumping, as any niggling little questions and things you were "95% confident about" that you just push away and ignore on the ground will be amplified a hundred-fold in the air!

Good luck with your skydiving career!



Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)

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