Are you the landing police?

[skybytch 259]

I'm curious. For those who jump at dz's that are already implementing seperate landing areas, how is it going?

Who gets to be the landing police at your dz? If that's you, what do you get for the hassle (besides lip/attitude/threats of legal action from those who think they are so special they can land wherever they want)?

Are jumpers following the rule? Are other jumpers giving shit to those who don't follow the rule?

How many are bitching about it? What is the biggest whine you've heard so far?

[Spizzzarko 0]

Ususally it is the swoopers at my DZ that take care of the gross infractions of landing etiquette but we do it in an informative way instead of bashing them.

Wow swoopers are part of the solution. Think about that there Bill Von.

[billvon 2,400]

>Wow swoopers are part of the solution. Think about that there Bill Von.

?? Swoopers and freeflyers and pattern flyers and accuracy jumpers and RWers and wingsuit flyers have to be part of ANY solution, and no one is suggesting any differently. I think we will have a much more productive discussion if you don't play the victim card quite so much.

[ChrisL 2]

We dont really have seperate landing areas, but even so I can answer that in part by telling you about a real dumbass thing I did yesterday.

On my first jump of the day the wind was out of the north and we all landed to the north.

While on the ride up on my second jump the winds shifted 180 degrees and
were coming out of the south.

I COMPLETELY FAILED to notice that everyone was landing the opposite direction from the previous load until it was way too late. I set up my usual pattern and by the time I realized my mistake I had a choice of down winding against the pattern everyone else was flying, or trying to do a 180 and land with the wind. I was low. I dont do high performance landings.

I was the last guy down so there was no chance of a collision in this case. It was a very fast but otherwise uneventful landing.

The landing police was almost every instructor at the dropzone, and I was talked to by almost every one of them about what I did and why it was so dangerous, not only to me but to others.

Fact is, I consider myself to be a fairly heads up jumper, but all it took was a change in wind conditions while I was riding up, and a bit of complacency on my part, and I instantly became a hazard and a schmuk

At my drop zone they take safety seriously and everyone participates.

I learned a valuable lesson and I'm glad the price wasn't very high.
I was embarrassed and felt like an idiot.
I got called on it by several different people.

As a side note, none of them treated me like an idiot.
They were all very direct, but also respectful.

I love my dropzone.

__

My mighty steed

[hukturn 0]

Bullshit...you are the one suggesting diffreently. You are the one proposing BSR. BSR takes the decision making process from the skydiver and from the DZ.

[jumper03 0]

At Raeford, we all gathered in the bar one night, Tony T. gave us his ideas, we talked about them, came up with a plan and now we all talk at the mock up before each load. So far, no problems and it's working great.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[hukturn 0]

More importantly in Raeford, the people have always been very disciplined in following traffic patterns, et cetera. Do it right or get Gene Pauls turqoise ring on the backside of your melon.
It is a realatively small DZ and seperate LZ's might be difficult. So, everyone has always looked out for one another. There are some other rules like not overtaking other canopies, et cetera.

[billvon 2,400]

>BSR takes the decision making process from the skydiver and from the DZ.

Nope. The BSR I am pushing tells the DZO to separate the two patterns. That's it. It's up to the DZO how to do it.

[yardhippie 0]

I suppose you could call me that. In fact its gotton to a point when Im watchin landing with a group and someone messes up, everyone looks at me. Wierd.
What to I get?
Comments behind my back, attitude, and a safer DZ. Yup. Even the S&TA is backing me, well, at least until I screw up. (Which I've been known to do)

Im seeing lower number jumpers talking to each other after minor incidents (landing too close to each other, cutting off, etc) They're not waiting on anyone now. On the ride to altitude we sound off those that will be swooping. We repeat the pattern and landing direction for the main landing area.

In the long run, Im getting a safer DZ with aware pilots. In the short term, Im getting a headache.

Oh, and the biggest whine: "Why are you always picking on ME?"

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[hukturn 0]

Thereby you put the decision in the hands of the USPA...not the DZ or the skydiver.

[rehmwa 2]

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The landing police was almost every instructor at the dropzone,

They might want to assign it to someone, having 15 people 'instruct' the same person on the same thing over and over again is eventually counterproductive and will shut ears after the 3rd repetition or so.

And assign it to someone that knows how to instruct rather than preach or scream or knee jerk react like most people do before staging and considering their comments/instruction.

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none of them treated me like an idiot.
They were all very direct, but also respectful.

as I said, if 'all the instructors' had to do it, then you were treated like an idiot. However, having staff do it and not just joe-jumper is a good choice too. So is doing it privately and not publicly, especially with newbie male jumpers.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Spizzzarko 0]

"if 'all the instructors' had to do it"

It just re-enforces the point

A lot of times the person who makes a mistake knows immediately afterward that they made a mistake. A gentle reminder is helpfull. The reason most of the swoopers here in Colorado see it is because we really don't go to the top so we see a lot of the up jumpers and student patterns. When I go to the top I do AFF or CRW. When doing AFF I land in the student area and when I do CRW we are landing way after everyone else.

[billvon 2,400]

> Thereby you put the decision in the hands of the USPA. . . .

No. You really should read what we're talking about before you comment on it.

[ChrisL 2]

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They might want to assign it to someone, having 15 people 'instruct' the same person on the same thing over and over again is eventually counterproductive and will shut ears after the 3rd repetition or so.

Well, it was only 4 actually, and it wasn't that they "had" to all do it, it
was just simply that when each spoke to me they had no knowledge of others having done so already.

Quote

And assign it to someone that knows how to instruct rather than preach or scream or knee jerk react like most people do

Nobody did this at all. Everyone was polite and respectful, and detailed.

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as I said, if 'all the instructors' had to do it, then you were treated like an idiot.

As I said, they didn't all "have to". Thats just how it worked out.
I did not feel as if anyone was treating me disrespectfully or unfairly.

My point was that the whole staff makes safety their personal responsibility whether its their own, a students, of just a fun jumper that should know better like myself.

Had they all been standing together and saw my landing I'd bet they would have had just one person speak to me, but they were all in different places and spoke to me at different times, and none of them "called me on the carpet" in front of other people

__

My mighty steed

[BillyVance 34]

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Thereby you put the decision in the hands of the USPA...not the DZ or the skydiver.

The BSRs are guidelines, not the LAW. Don't fret over it too much.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rehmwa 2]

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My point was that the whole staff makes safety their personal responsibility whether its their own, a students, of just a fun jumper that should know better like myself.

Had they all been standing together and saw my landing I'd bet they would have had just one person speak to me, but they were all in different places and spoke to me at different times, and none of them "called me on the carpet" in front of other people

quality - thanks for the example

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AggieDave 6]

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Ususally it is the swoopers at my DZ that take care of the gross infractions of landing etiquette but we do it in an informative way instead of bashing them.

Same here.

It also goes back to our students. Our student program teaches much much more then just turn and flare. What we teach is based off of concepts that Scott Miller teaches. So our problem isn't from our core DZ jumpers or our students.

Our biggest problem is from visiting jumpers (not all of them, though).

In that case its typically the top canopy pilots at the DZ pulling the offending jumper aside and giving some constructive education. Being a "canopy nazi" doesn't accomplish anything but to upset people and create more problems. Being an instructor and educator fixes the actual problem. Something that more rules can never do.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AFFI 0]

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Our student program teaches much much more then just turn and flare.
Being an instructor and educator fixes the actual problem. Something that more rules can never do.

That is what it is all about!

Quality instruction defines what happens in the future. I believe that future incident reports are influenced by the quality of instruction today’s students receive. You can have the best program in the world, but if the instructors representing it are mediocre, then they will put out skydivers who disregard sensible decisions.

This Aggie is right on!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Spizzzarko 0]

Cool man! Are you still coming out in August?

[AggieDave 6]

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Cool man! Are you still coming out in August?

Yup. Atleast I have 2 weeks off from work and I'm buying plane tickets soon.

Although we have 3 more comps here in TX before the end of our season...2 of which are in August. August is going to be a very swoopy month.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Spizzzarko 0]

Cool man! I will start practicing my beer drinking now. I am looking forward to the comps as it should be a good time!

[diablopilot 2]

Yes, I am the police.


Any one who has ever said "Someone should go talk to them" is part of the problem.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BillyVance 34]

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Yes, I am the police.


Any one who has ever said "Someone should go talk to them" is part of the problem.

Years ago on a big way, (although a different topic) I busted a local jumper at Cross Keys for going waaay low. I thought I was the only one who saw him hum it a 1000 feet lower than me and I dumped near 2000 feet on a 100 way. The organizers kicked him off the formation.

Another time, VA record attempts, one guy kept fucking up, and on the best attempt of the weekend, nearly took me out. I recovered and got in, he took off early. Told the organizers... byebye fuckup.

So, am I part of the problem or part of the solution?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rehmwa 2]

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Our biggest problem is from visiting jumpers (not all of them, though)....... Being an instructor and educator fixes the actual problem. Something that more rules can never do.

Agree that visiting other DZ with completely different rules and expectations can cause conflict - especially if every DZO doesn't have a best practices standard to work with.

You can have the best instruction in Texas, and the best (but different) instruction in Arizona, and if they are taught two different things excellently, you will have trouble with visitors between the DZs that have good intentions but different expectations.

Standardized BSRs will help ensure some commonality between DZs. Standing up to an idiot and providing training or frank feedback isn't a 'nazi'. But I digressed to a different thread topic here. rambling......

analogy - DZ1 thinks the 45 degree rule is a great thing (they are wrong, but they mean well and ALL the instructors and old timers really drill it into the heads of the jumpers). So DZ1 jumper visits DZ2 and he causes real issues and near misses

real case - DZ1 has two trees close together and a line of trees and a fence which define the 'experienced' landing area that swoopers like to use to try and kill each other by coming at the trees from both sides and carving blind around corners and hitting branches, etc. Visitors just hear "experienced landing area closest to packing area" and don't realize that the circus is in town and they almost get killed before learning to avoid that area. This isn't really an analogy, just an example at one DZ that really bugged me. When asked who might teach decent swooping there, manifest smiled at pointed at two guys that almost hit each other trying the hit the "tree gate" from two different directions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[riggerrob 558]

The last time Pacho got all toggle-monkey, I walked out with a shovel in hand.
We all had a good laugh!